# Episode 12 - Boomer Series: Dana

- Podcast: GenX Adulting Podcast
- Published: 2024-12-02T00:00:00.000Z
- Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2398379/episodes/16203321-episode-12-boomer-series-dana.mp3
- Page: https://genxadultingpodcast.com/transcripts/podcasts/genx-adulting-podcast/episodes/episode-12
- Source: https://genxadultingpodcast.com/episodes/genxadultingpodcastepisode12.html
- People: Brian Barker (host), Nicole Barker (host), Dana (guest)
- Topics: Boomer Series

## Summary

In Episode 12 of the Boomer Series, Dana shares her life experiences growing up as a boomer in America, detailing her family's migration from Germany to the West Coast, her childhood in Portland, and the challenges she faced as a young mother. The conversation touches on significant historical events, family dynamics, and the evolution of women's roles in society during her lifetime.

## Key takeaways

- Dana was born in October 1947, shortly after World War II.
- Her family migrated from Germany to the West Coast of the United States.
- Dana's grandmother was a single mother raising three children during the Great Depression.
- She experienced the cultural shifts of the 1960s, including the impact of the Vietnam War and civil rights movements.
- Dana became a flight attendant at the age of 19, a role that came with strict expectations for women.
- She faced significant challenges as a young mother, including the loss of two children.
- Dana emphasizes the importance of family and the healing power of being a grandmother.

## FAQ

### What were some challenges Dana faced as a young mother?

Dana faced the loss of two children due to severe health issues, which profoundly impacted her life and marriage.

### How did Dana's upbringing influence her perspective on family?

Growing up in a family that experienced significant hardships, Dana values the importance of family connections and celebrations.

### What historical events did Dana live through?

Dana lived through major historical events, including World War II, the Vietnam War, and the civil rights movement, which shaped her worldview.

### What was Dana's career before becoming a mother?

Dana worked as a flight attendant for TWA at the age of 19, a job that was highly regulated for women at the time.

### How does Dana view her role as a grandmother?

Dana sees her role as a grandmother as healing and fulfilling, emphasizing the importance of being present in her grandchildren's lives.


## Referenced links

- [Watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBry3zS9w6g)
- [Listen on Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-12-boomer-series-dana/id1764838823?i=1000678836342)
- [Listen on Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/1Qi60qJGFggePLLvkelAky)
- [Listen on Buzzsprout](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2398379/episodes/16203321-episode-12-boomer-series-dana)

## Transcript

[Music]
Welcome to GenX Adulting. It's
Thanksgiving Week and so
today we have a special guest
with us, somebody that I'm very grateful
for and Brian's very
grateful for, my mom, Dana.
And she is a boomer. She's a bona fide
boomer and so she's going to share her
life experience with us
and our audience and give the younger
generation some insight into what life
was like for a woman
growing up during her time. So mom, let's
start with when you were
born. We'll go with that.
Well, I was born in October of 1947.
Okay, so in the 40s? In the
40s at the end of the war,
I think World War II ended around 45,
right about there. Okay. Anyway, so
towards the end of that,
the 40s. And then our family, when they
came over to America, they didn't stop
really and settle in
East Coast at all, right? They just came
straight to the West Coast. I'm not sure.
And where they come from?
Germany, southern Germany. Okay. And but
the Annie Jean did a
genealogy on the family.
On the family tree. Yes, but she really
dived into, that's the paper I'm holding,
some of it, a lot of
genealogy. And some of the people were in
Indiana. But I don't
know the connection to
the relationship. How far, you know, was
it just this branch went
there, but it had nothing to do
with us type of thing. But we're pretty
much sorry, we're pretty
much West Coast people though.
You would say like our family is really
rooted in the West. We were
kind of those pioneer people
that came out and went out to the West.
Yes. Yeah. From what I
understand, they participated in the
Oklahoma land rush. And I don't know what
the outcome was for them.
Right. But I do know they,
my grandmother, which would be your great
grandmother, was born in
Hanover, Kansas in 1897.
And then they moved to Enid, Oklahoma.
And when she was, no, I'm
not sure what held she was.
Do you know if they were, were they there
when the dust bowl happened?
I don't know. Okay. I don't know.
But didn't her dad, he
was a sheriff, right?
He was a sheriff. And he, we would hear
stories that he would have
to go out and talk to the
and I believe he had to arrest a couple
of the James
brothers. And that's so cool.
Yeah. And I wish I knew more, but I, you
know, as a kid, you listen and right.
Right. So I think it was an interesting
time. I know that she, she
meaning Nana, Nana. Yeah.
Would talk about going down and having a
picnic and they'd go out
in the buck board and they'd
have their picnic lunch and they'd take
the buck board down by the
creek and that kind of thing.
So what's a bug board? I was
just going to ask the same.
You don't know what a bug board is. No,
my goodness. It is a,
like, how would you
describe it for somebody?
It's a giant wagon. Okay.
And horses are pulling it
and that people sit up here.
Like a stagecoach?
No, like it's open or if it has seats,
like if you're going to church,
everyone would climb in and
sit in these little woods.
Sounds like a little
house on the prairies.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
So she actually lived little house in the
prairie and on the West coast.
Well, in Kansas, but still, I mean,
that's pretty far West
compared to when America was being
settled or Oklahoma. Yeah.
That was the frontier.
Yeah, it was the frontier.
Yeah.
So, yeah, so she was a wonderful lady.
And then after, did
they move from Oklahoma?
Yes. At 16, they moved to Portland.
Oregon.
Oregon.
Portland, Oregon. And
they've been there ever since.
So that would have been
1913 for her when she was 16.
So if you recall old pictures of Portland
and the logging and the
waterfront and the muddy streets
all of that, I mean, she was there then.
I think I remember talking to her.
I feel like they came
through the on the Oregon trail.
Well, I'm sure they did.
I think that's how people came.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
I know.
That is amazing.
Quick sidebar too. I did talk to her that
one time on her 100th
birthday, which is cool in its own.
Yes, she lived to be 100.
Yeah, it's amazing.
And I remember talking to her and she was
saying her dad was a sheriff.
He did arrest the James
brothers and Billy the kid.
But they actually respected him as a
person and as the law
man because he was fair.
And whatever that meant back in the day,
they had a lot of respect for him.
And he actually, I
think, respected them as well.
But he was a pain or they
were a pain in his side.
Yeah, but they but they probably worked
with him more than other people too.
Yeah.
Because of how he was. I remember him.
That's cool.
That's really cool.
He established themselves in Portland, in
Northeast Portland,
in the Rose City area,
in the Laurelhurst area, Selwood area.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then your mom and her sister, Annie
Jean and her brother,
Uncle Mel were born, right?
Yeah.
So when was what year was your mom born?
Off the top of your head.
Yeah, 1930 something.
Okay.
Let's see.
Probably 19. I don't know.
Well, how old was she when she had you?
That's right.
She was 18.
Okay. So do the math.
If my mom was born in 47.
So 29.
1929.
Yeah, 1929.
Wow. No?
Maybe.
Yeah. That's the math.
I know.
So she had you.
Okay. So she was born in 1929.
And then didn't you tell me that before
she was with grandpa,
she was married before him?
Yes. She had married Mr. Winter. And I
hate to say this. I
don't know his first name.
So how old was she when she married?
She would have been like 18.
So right before she had you.
Right.
She was married.
Okay. All right. And so why at that time,
because I'm sure that was common.
They were getting married young.
Isn't this the baby boomers, right? The
war ended. Men came home.
Everybody started getting together.
Yeah.
But when that was happening, it was the
war was ending. So you have these,
you know, and to preface this a little
bit is her, her father was, was killed
in a car accident and she was five.
So Nana brought these
three kids up by themselves.
So which was hard in those days, but that
was a single mom in the
twenties in Portland, Oregon,
Portland, Oregon, like the wild west.
It's not like Portland
wasn't weird back then.
No. Well, not weird as we understand.
Yeah. Yeah. That's insane. She's a single
mom raising the three of them.
So you have to her sister, Annie Jean and
mom, Annie Jean more than
mom was, you know, you get,
that's not really what I want to say is
the young people, people
were coming home from the war.
And when you're a teenager, which they
were, you think, you know,
you think, oh, there's a war.
Who knows how long we'll live. We need to
live our life to the
fullest. And we just don't know
what tomorrow will bring. And you have
that war anxiety mixed
in there as a teenager.
That makes sense.
That teenage mind. Yes. And I think that
that my aunt and my mother
kind of did. It was probably, I've never
heard of that perspective
before. That's amazing. Actually.
Well, isn't that what caused the baby
boom? Everyone got swept
up a bit into that feeling.
Yeah. People were coming home and the
women that had gone to work
because the men were gone.
We've all seen that in movies. That's
where I know it from. Went
back, did stop working. That was,
I think, caused some people issues. But
anyway, and the men came
home because they'd been gone
two, three years, if not longer. Right.
And then babies start happening.
And that's where boomer comes from. So
just to explain,
that's where the boomer is.
Is that where the war ended. Women did
have to go work in the
factories to cover the jobs for men
because the men were away at war. I think
a lot of women enjoyed working and
resented having to go
back into domestic life. Right. But then
then they, their men came
back and they started having a
family. They were swept up in that, that
time, that emotion of the end of the war.
And then you kind of go into the fifties,
right? Yeah. And you
have, and then all of a sudden
suburbs came about. Right. And you have
all these young couples
having babies. Right. You know,
your mother probably can tell you more
about that than I, as far
as what went on with that,
because she's 10 years older than I am.
And that really was her time.
Yeah. Yeah. She's a silent generation.
Yeah. So that, so I'm just
kind of from what I heard.
You're a baby from the
boomers. Yeah. I was just a baby.
I do have a question though. Do you, do
you know what your mom did
during the war? Like what was,
did she was a little girl. She was okay.
Yeah. She was a high
school. She was a teenager because
she married Mr. Winter when he came home
from war. I love that his
name's. I know it's awesome.
I don't think that I'm not sure when she
married. You don't know why she married.
I think he was still out to war. So he
may have been home on leave
and they married and then he
went out again. This is the, the
beginning of Portland being weird.
Okay. So did they, um, he didn't die in
the war, did he? No, he came
back. And then they just got
divorced. Yes. This is it. It worked out.
Okay. And then she married grandpa.
And then she and grandpa met. Right. My
dad met and they got
married. I don't know how they met.
Okay. I don't tell you. I
have no idea how they met.
Is this, uh, that silent generation then
your mom is the silent generation.
No, I'm the beginning of the boomers. No,
your mom, your mom, my mother. Yeah.
Probably. Yeah. So she didn't say shit.
Yeah. No, she, yes. She was silent.
And we had a lot of, a lot of, um, there
were a lot of different
things going on. As we talk,
I can pull in some of them. So she, they,
they, you wouldn't tell
your children things like that.
Yeah. Just hold onto your horses.
Listeners. There's a lot coming your way.
This all sounds innocent. It's about to
get wild. Yeah. So you, you had, uh, you,
two sisters and a brother. So there were
four of you, you were the oldest
and you grew up in Southeast
Portland or Northeast Portland?
No, we grew up in, um, well, that's
interesting. When,
like when I was little,
I, I don't know where, where we were, but
I think it was North Portland.
Were you in like the Gresham area or? No,
my dad grew up in Park Rose.
Okay. So we did live in a little house by
the Sandy drive-in. We were little then,
but then somehow or other, I'm not sure
how we had a house out in
Lake Oswego up on a hill.
Cute little house. That's where I went to
kindergarten and first grade.
I didn't know that. Yeah. It's a cute
little house. And I don't can't tell you.
Bonnie was there then. That's your
sister. Yeah. It was
Bonnie, Steve and me.
Okay. And so we were there and then in
first grade, maybe
second grade, about there,
we moved out to Grant Street, which was
not so far out now, but was
way out Northeast Portland,
like 170th or something. And there wasn't
a whole lot out there.
So that's Gresham area for sure. Well, it
was still Portland. It wasn't that way.
It was just before Gresham and Gresham
was just a tiny town then
because there were still farms.
There were still farms everywhere. It
feels like it's more modern. Yeah.
I guess you're thinking of it as more
modern, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
It was there were still farms everywhere.
Oh yeah. And they were just starting to,
they had bought a home there and that's
where we were when my
younger sister was born, Barbara.
So you grew up then in that area, right?
Yes. That's where you grew up.
All right. Quick question. When you lived
in Lake Oswego, was it Lake Oswego?
Like we know it today, because it's a
wealthy suburb today, or
at least it was 20 years ago
when we were living there. Yes. It's
still very, it's very
affluent today. Was it?
Very fluent. And yes, it was affluent,
but we were living up in the hill. So
probably certain areas were, but areas
around it were not. And I
don't really know too much,
but that growth there, again, it was a
small little place, probably
just people around the lake.
Yeah. Yeah. So, because you're thinking
of it with the downtown area and that,
that downtown area had one little street.
Cause I remember going to
buy my new shoes at a store
there that was called the Buster Brown
store or something right
next to the theater. And that's
still there. I saw it when I was there
this past spring. Oh, that's
funny. That is so funny. So
when you were in high school, would that
have been the early
sixties or mid sixties? So you
remember when JFK was shot? Where were
you in JFK was shot? I was a junior in
high school in Medford.
Oh, when you guys lived in...
Remember we moved around a lot.
So you lived in... Medford.
Yes, lived in
Southern Oregon. Yeah. So...
I never, I did not know
you lived in Medford, Oregon.
Yes. I can't... When I was about the
fifth grade, we moved to Twin Falls,
Idaho. And that was back
when people didn't change, move to change
jobs. That was a new
concept going on. People were
pretty well in their neighborhoods,
right? Well, my dad got
promoted to, he worked for a moving
company, promoted to run this moving
company in Twin Falls, Idaho.
So we lived there from about
fifth grade till seventh grade. And then
in the seventh grade, we
moved to Bountiful, Utah.
We're there for a year. Then we moved
back to Twin Falls to finish out my
eighth grade here. I'm
sorry. I have to think. Yeah. You're just
remembering it all. Yeah.
Yeah. And then we moved back to
Portland and I started high school in
Portland at Madison High School.
Right. And in my sophomore year, we moved
to Medford for a
year. In Southern Oregon.
And at the end of that year, we moved
back to Portland. And I finished my
senior year at Madison
High School. It's a lot of moving during
a really crazy time in a
child's life, but it's so such a
very rural areas too. That was total
timber company country.
When we went to Twin Falls,
it was a small town, but it was the best
place for a kid. It was potato farms,
you know, ranch, branches and potatoes,
small town, small town, I think like
20,000 people with that.
And we would get in our bikes and ride
for miles and miles and come back and
we'd build these tree.
It was a wonderful place for children to
grow up. Right. You know,
most of my friends had horses
or lived out and I really remember Twin
Falls with bond members. That's great.
When we were in Twin
Falls, I would have been seventh grade,
maybe eighth grade.
Anyway, my brother, Steve,
two years younger than me, and Twin Falls
was right at the edge of
the Snake River Canyon.
The Snake River floats through there and
it was Canyon. That's
awesome. And the Memorial Bridge
was there. Big bridge. It's the one that
evil, Knievel jumped over. Remember evil.
Jen Exers do, but anyone younger than
this doesn't know. Oh yeah. I remember
watching evil Knievel on
TV for sure. Yeah. Well, while we were
there, my dad had changed
jobs and he was a DJ at the local
and my brother and his friend, I can't
tell you the name. I think
there were two kids, three of
them, one, including my brother, went out
by the bridge and they
weren't supposed to be out there.
And they decided that they would walk
down to the Canyon way far below and
their little paths or
however they were doing it. And
so I believe Steve stepped back to let
another kid by and he fell
hundreds of feet and landed on a wild
rose bush. And of course the radio
station got the news.
And so my dad went right out there and
they, he was going to go
down, but my dad was a big guy.
His nickname was Moose. He was a football
player, big guy, and
they couldn't hold him.
He couldn't get down to him. So they had
to go up to the country
club up here and get a boat,
motorboat and get the boat down and then
hike up to him and then
carried him out. And they took
to the little hospital and all his
insides had shifted to one
side and the rest of them was
filled with blood. So they did, who
knows? I don't know what they did. And
this is Steve. Yeah.
And he's got a big, long scar scar. So
whatever they did to move
things back or whatever.
And he was in the hospital
two weeks, if that, and then a week
later, he was out playing
baseball and a baseball team.
I can see that just a kid, but he was,
but you forgot the one
part where there was no other
bushes. It was the only rose bush. Yeah.
Wild rose. It was,
there was one boy, you know,
this, this story. I know the story.
There's one Bush and he landed
in the one bush and his pants
ripped and they said, that's where God
and our God had a hold of his
pants and they ripped. Yeah.
He curled up and he bounced from rock. I
mean, but wherever he hit, there was
sagebrush and stuff,
but wherever he hit, it's just amazing.
He lived. It's funny as
he's the reason there's
like signs that say be careful and all
that. There probably was
a sign there then. Yeah.
Nobody was supposed to be there. And the
kids knew they weren't
supposed to do that. Of course.
So you were in Medford in high school
when JFK was assassinated
and that would have, you would
have been there probably when Martin
Luther King was assassinated and Bobby
Kennedy too, all that
time. Or were you back in Portland for
Bobby? No, I was back in
Portland. And when Martin,
I think I was important when Martin
Luther King. Yeah. Yeah. And so when
we've learned about that
in our history classes in school, it, it
just seemed completely
chaotic and traumatizing.
Was it as crazy as what we've learned
about just with JFK getting
killed and then Bobby Kennedy
getting killed and Martin Luther King Jr.
getting killed and the
protesting going on for the Vietnam
war and all of that and the hippie
counterculture movement.
Since you were there for it,
is it depicted correctly in movies and
what we've learned in
history books? Would you say it's
accurate? Probably. When he was killed,
it's like the, the nation
just was in shock. Okay.
Everybody went home. This is JFK, right?
Everybody went home and
gathered around the TV. And I
remember when Walter Cronkite came on and
said, the president has
passed. It makes me emotional.
Now it was, it made you feel afraid.
Yeah. It was like, what
are you going to do now?
Right. What's going to happen to us
without our president? Right. And then
they had the funeral
it was just horrible. Well, I was a
junior. I was probably 16, 15,
six. Well, I was probably just
turned 16. He died on November 22nd.
Because the way you're
describing it is how we dealt with
nine 11. I would say nine 11 is RJ, FK
Jr. Yeah. And so of
course, when that happened,
then you have all the other things that
were going on, the
process testing by the students.
Um, as time went on, right after Lyndon
Johnson became president
then, and then you had the
people protesting the Vietnam war. And
you had people really divided
about that. Right. Very much
so. And, um, and that was all through the
sixties. Just as our nation has been
divided, I'd say for
the last eight years in a lot of ways,
because of politics, would
you see similarities in the
division civil rights was in there too.
Yeah. And there was a lot
of, it was a change. It was a
cultural change, a shift. And, um,
because women's rights were in there.
Yeah. They were later civil
rights. Yeah. But there was a lot, there
was a lot there. Yeah. Yeah.
There was a lot. And wasn't,
um, Steve was in Vietnam then, right?
Right. Steve. Um, God, I don't
know if he even graduated from
high school. Do you remember if he wanted
to go or did he went down?
Well, it was kind of your
typical story is that I believe that
there was conflict going
on and at home and he, uh,
probably with dad, you know, a teenage
boy and the whole thing. So
you're saying like him and
grandpa were probably arguing and all
that. Right. Did, do you know?
I had left already because he, how old
was he when he went to Vietnam?
18. You know, if he lied, no, on his age.
Okay. No, but he wasn't
drafted. No, he joined.
He joined the Marines. Okay. And he, he
survived just the heads up. He
survived. He went and served.
How long was he gone? Do you remember?
Whatever that it was
only did one service,
one tour tour. And I think they were 18
months, maybe a year. I, to be honest,
I don't remember how long, but he only
did one tour. So you
graduated from high school. Um,
what year would that have been? 1965. So
the mid sixties. And did you go to
college or what did you
know? I wanted to go to college. Um, but
my dad didn't feel that
women should go to college,
that it would, they go just to find a
husband and, and, um, that,
uh, it was a waste of time.
Now, not all dads thought that obviously,
I mean, my friends all went to college.
The majority of your, uh,
female friends went to college.
Yeah. I think that's yes. So it was
normal in high school year,
senior year for everyone to be
talking about going to college. No one
really talked about it.
Oh, that's so interesting.
But they went, but they went, but
grandpa, well, the boys went, the guys
went because if you didn't
go to college, you were drafted. Right.
So they didn't have a
choice. Right. They wanted to go to
college to not have to go to war and you
had, couldn't you had to
have certain grades too.
Couldn't, you know, right, right, right.
Drop out. If you dropped out of college,
they would grab you up and draft you. So
there was always this
anxiety for young men
of they could go to war at any time, if
they mess up their life,
which is something that, um,
we haven't had a draft since Vietnam. So
that's not anything that
any men have had to deal with.
Since Vietnam, that anxiety. No, but
there is the anxiety,
at least from my age in,
and I've probably passed or held onto the
anxiety for my sons,
because you have to sign up for,
what's it called? The secret, uh,
selective service, right.
Right. When the boys 18,
they have to register with something.
Right. I don't remember doing it. Yeah.
And I don't like my kids having to do it
either. Right. Right.
Yeah. Yeah. I think they're
automatically, I think it's automatic at
this point. Yeah. But it
is interesting that since
Vietnam, we haven't had a draft situation
because it's, I can't imagine
the utter anxiety and terror
these young men felt. The other piece of
this is right. This is a,
becomes a racial conversation
because if you're a lot of the white kids
could go to college or escape to Canada.
Whereas a lot of the minorities back then
it was mostly African
Americans. Right. They went
to the war and that that added to the
contentiousness of it. All
right. Yeah. And at least in
historical context, maybe was that a
thing back then talked about now that
it's post-war and you
look back and you see how many young
black men were killed in
Vietnam and disproportionate to
young white men, you know, history that
isn't favorable to that.
They remember during that
time is when the civil rights was going
on. So no one really talked in my
household. No one talked
about that. And I didn't hear that
conversation anywhere. Yeah. That's kind
of what I mean. Yeah.
No, that wasn't, that wasn't normal to
talk about. I don't think in any, most
households probably at
that time. Right. And Portland, it was
not set up demographically,
like Southern States or East
coast, even there was Michigan, even or
California, even probably.
California was more Mexican people
that were there. And I'm sure they had
the same situation of
draft. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Because there's, yeah. But so in your
situation, your dad didn't feel women
need to go to college.
Right. Women should just get married.
Well, he didn't say that
necessarily, but he, I mean,
that was what else are you going to do?
That's you're brought up
that you get married and have
kids. Right. You aren't brought up and
people want to be nurses or teachers.
Those were. But didn't
you have to go to college for that? Yeah.
Our secretaries.
Okay. And in high school,
I took business classes. Right. So, but
you were raised with this
wide open world of you can do
anything and go to college and be
anything concept that women are young
women are familiar with. No.
So, and also then once I graduated, he
expected me to go to work right away.
What kind of, what kind of work if you,
whatever job I could get,
what I did is I worked as a
clerk at this company down on Columbia
Boulevard, going North, way
North. Yeah. And they, it was,
I can't think of the name of it. It'll
probably come to me at an
odd moment that they made
wood stains. And so I was in Wex. Minwax.
Yeah. Like that. Okay.
That could be it as far as.
But, um, so I worked there. I
can't even tell you how long.
And you would have been 18. I would have
been, now I graduated high
school at 17. Okay. Because
my birthday was late. Right. So I worked
there. I can't remember for
how long. And then I worked for
Greyhound Moving Company, Dan Lines.
Annie Jean had a job there. And so I
worked there for a while
as a secretary. And Busta left there to
go to work with TWA.
Because that's the exciting part,
you were a flight attendant. I was a
flight attendant. Yeah. So that happened.
You would have been what, 19? Yeah. 19.
You became a flight
attendant with TWA. And back then.
Yeah. But I was just, yeah, 19. I think
you had to be 20. And
I was just turning 20.
And back then they were called
stewardesses. They were not called flight
attendants. It was right.
And I don't think there were any men. It
was majority. They
were men. Were there men?
Not like now. The men were pursers. And
they were usually on
the. What's a purser?
Sorry. A purser is. All this
technology, you know, it's.
Yeah. The purser is, I don't know totally
what all they do, but they probably keep,
work on international flights and
controlling the money and the
alcohol and the tracking of the
flight that you have to control. So are
they on the flight? Oh yeah.
They usually work first class.
Okay. So there was a hierarchy. I was
just going to say that's
where you're in charge of business
stuff. And then there were the
stewardesses. And back then you had to
look, I mean, correct me if
I'm wrong, you had to weigh a certain
weight. You had weigh ins,
right? Yes. Were they weekly?
They were surprised weigh in. Surprise
weigh ins. So you could
come in, you come into the.
To get your sign into your flight. Yeah.
And get your mail and there'd be a
supervisor there saying,
not only that, but they check your
fingers to make sure that
your nail polish was perfect.
And that you had to wear a girdle. And my
roommate Casey got written
up a couple of times because
she wouldn't wear one and you couldn't
wear panty girdle. Do you
even know what I'm talking about?
Well, it's around your waist, down to
your thighs. Okay. Yes.
And it would be like a tube.
It's almost like, um, like a corset, but,
uh, for, for young women
today, it's like shape wear.
Skims. It's like a suppose. And then at
the bottom of it, it has the little
things that would hook
your nylons into. Yeah. So, um, like what
you look, what young women
now would wear to be sexy.
Yes. Yes. The garter, like the, well,
it's not the garter though,
but it's like the, the hooks with
the, the panty hose. They would wear it
as a sexy thing. Now the
panty hose, what had the hooks
underneath the legs. Okay. And, but from
the back of your uniform,
you may want to cut this out.
No, it's interesting. The uniform with a
regular old fashioned
girdle, you just have a smooth
back. Yes. With a panty hose. There's
definition on, on where your bottom is.
Okay. And the reason
that they were really, um, strict about
that is if you think about
where your eyes are, when, uh,
stewardess walks down the aisle, it's
right at your butt area.
Right. Right. You know, so as a
flight, so as a flight
attendant for TWA in 1960.
Well, I got, it would have been this is
67 68. Okay. So as a flight
attendant for TWA in 1968,
a woman had surprise weigh-ins. She had
her nail polish checked to
make sure it was appropriate.
You couldn't be overweight. You could not
be overweight grounded
if you were overweight.
And she had to wear girdle, which is like
a rubber shape where
elastic, elastic wear not,
I would assume not very comfortable. But
once it's on, it's on. Think
about it. I was a size four.
Right. It wasn't that big a deal. I mean,
it was tight, but it
wasn't like now it would be
uncomfortable. Right. Right. Right. It
was just, you know, and so, and
everything had to be perfect.
Your uniform. Your hair couldn't be, your
hair couldn't be long.
Oh, your hair had to be in a bun. So your
hair had to be short. Yeah.
It's, I remember when they,
I flew in the gals had long hair. I was
like, holy crap. And, and
you, I'm sure had to have your
makeup. Perfect. Oh yeah. And, and I
mean, if you look back, if you think
about it, we wore hats
and you wear the little hats. Yeah. And
then as soon as the doors closed, then
the hats can come off.
Okay. So very different than now. Now
they look like slobs.
They do. Well, and this is coming from
someone who was there, you
know, in the sixties where there
were expectations. And then you've
probably watched the
evolution of now I, I agree surprise
weigh-ins should not be a thing, but
she's thinking, yeah, I love it. But what
they were promoting and
what at that time you were the face of
the company, right?
Like you couldn't have your
uniform on and go to a bar, right? You
could, you were the face of
the company. And when you flew
then not everybody flew, right? So people
that flew came on the
airplane dressed up. Yes. And, um,
businessmen in business suits. Um, I
think that's the golden
age of air travel. It was
only because you're right. People dressed
nice back then they
acted professionally. It's,
it's a fricking ball list today. It's
crazy. A Greyhound bus in
the air. Yeah. Yeah. So it's
a totally different. And when they first,
we would never have walked through the
aisle with a garbage
bag, going, whatever they say, and you're
throwing your things in a
garbage bag. We had trays and we
come and we collect everything on a tray,
go back to the galley and come back out.
You just did not do that. And of course
we had food and hot food,
hot food. And TWA was one of
the first airlines to, um, at least this
is what I understood to have like
microwaves. And so we had
hot food. So the galley, I loved working
the galley. Oh, a microwave
in the late sixties. That's
going to be no, it was, no, I don't even
know if it was really a
microwave, but, but everything,
comes in and whip it up there and you set
your timer and you learn to
set it before you take off.
And cause you need to get it done so you
can get it out. It
was fun. You know, it's,
what's interesting is you seem, I'm
getting a sense of pride from you in
that, having that job
and doing it like you guys took pride in
it. Yes, you did. Yeah.
Yeah. And you got to travel.
And I traveled not a whole lot. I
traveled a little bit. I
traveled in the airplane working,
right? But I moved to Kansas city. So how
old were you when you
moved from Portland,
when you became a steward, a flight
attendant 19. And where did you go?
Kansas city. And that was
your base. That was where the training
school was. Okay. And it was so exciting.
It, it really was my
little few months of like what a college
life would have been
like. I had roommates,
the apartment complex that they put the
girls up in. You walked on bridges
because it was nothing,
but a swimming pool below. So you walked
on bridges to get to
your apartment and they were
very modern and, and it was exciting.
Yeah. It was just really exciting. And
then you went to school
every day and learned about the planes
and what years to do and
safety and that type of thing. So
how long did you have to go to school? I
think it was six or eight
weeks. And then you were able to
fly on the planes. And did you fly with
fellow friends like
your roommates or anything?
Actually, no, you usually, hopefully the
people you flew with was
senior to you. So they knew what
to do. And you went through that learning
curve. True. Yeah. That
makes sense. That makes sense.
But no, I never really did fly with them.
Interesting. But once we moved out of the
training apartments, we rented an
apartment and we all were
just gone at different times.
Because you pick your schedule, you know,
monthly. And if you're on standby,
it just, you have to be ready to go. So
you did training in Kansas
City. You kind of graduated,
started flying, but that was still your
home base? Because I did, I
wanted, you put down where you
wanted to go. And I wanted to go to New
York and I got Kansas City, which is
really just as well.
Everybody wanted to go to
New York though. No, no,
San Francisco, you know, Los Angeles, New
York, Chicago, the big Miami thing then
that wasn't a hub for TWA. Okay. So, so I
got Kansas City. God
was looking out for me
because I'm not sure how I
would have done in New York.
Kansas City is actually a really cool
city. It is, you know,
well, you left it, right?
You loved your time there. I liked Kansas
City. And it's first place
I experienced like cold in
the winter. And yeah, we had a good time.
That's where I met your dad.
And that's where you met my
dad. And so how did you guys meet? He was
a blind date. I was
flying with a gal who knew him.
I'm not sure where we were going. And she
said, you know, I should fix
you up with this guy. I know.
I went, Oh, okay. Well, yeah. Well, so
where did you guys go on your blind date?
Sounds very scandalous.
I assume a restaurant. Yeah. I don't
remember where we went. And then I know
we went back to his house
and plot thickens. Yeah. And Nicole was
conceived. She wasn't. No, she wasn't.
Did you meet him at all before the date?
Or was it truly that was the first day?
That's the first time you met him. Yeah.
And so for any of the
younger generations,
obviously no internet, no social media,
us Gen Xers that we were
used to that. But this is
you just show up at the restaurant and
meet the guy. I didn't
show up at the restaurant. Oh,
oh, came and picked me. Come on. So as he
came up to the door
and knocked on the door,
strange man, you've never met, but you
talked to him on the phone.
Okay. So he had called you
beforehand to set it up and okay. A
little chitty chat. So he
pulled up, but he pulled up. Yeah.
And he knocked on the door. I guess. And
he came in and I think I had roommates
that were home then. And uh, what was
your first impression of him?
I, I liked the way he looked, but I
thought he was really full of himself.
Accurate. And I didn't, I was unsure. He
was older and I was
unsure of him. He was like five
years older than you. Right. Four and a
half. Yeah. But still. So he was like a
little intimidating.
Maybe he was. And then, but things had
the blind date going,
must've gone well. So then
you guys start dating. Well, not really.
I was going with
somebody else at the time
and I don't want to go into that. Okay.
And so I was really torn.
Right. Here I was having this
new exciting life and, and I was really
torn. Right. What I should
be doing. I made some really
bad choices. Right. And so I wasn't
really that interested in
him because I thought he was a
blowhard. Right. And my girlfriend
roommate, Jackie, Jackie
was from, I want to say around
Philadelphia. I'm not sure that she was
very attractive. She had
black hair in these, those
weird blue eyes that people have. Crystal
blue eyes. And when she
walked, it was like she glided.
She had a distancing. Very graceful.
Yeah. So Bob took her out and then that
made me jealous. So,
so he took you out and then you were kind
of torn. So you were
hesitating. Yeah. And so then he took
Jackie out and then you got jealous. Yes.
I mean, it was very
immature. Well, you were what? 20.
Yeah. Yeah. From Portland. From Portland.
And he was from Detroit.
Yeah. It was from Dearborn.
Dearborn. Um, they had a little bit more
experience than I am. Yeah. And he was
going to school to be
a doctor. Yeah. He was in med school at
that point. Yes. So he's in
med school. You're a flight
attendant and, uh, his trick worked. I
assume he took your friend
out and he got you. Yeah.
It was a trick too. Were you the prize he
was after? I believe
so. Yeah. Good answer.
So then you guys started dating. And so
we started dating. Yeah.
And how long did you date?
And that's how long
we dated. Oh, we dated.
I don't know how long
it was. Like a year?
Um, maybe. And then, um,
I haven't thought about this in a long
time. It's okay. Take your time. We can
edit out the pauses.
We dated. I don't know how
long, but it wasn't going well.
Well, how are all surprised about that?
How, how long were you in Kansas city?
Total, would you say?
From, so the whole time you're in Kansas
city for a year. I was with
him. So you were with the whole
time you were in Kansas city. You were
with him pretty much the
whole time. Because I met him,
I think three weeks after I started
flying, after I got out of school. Okay.
So you, you did your
schooling for like two months or a year,
month and a half, and then
met him like three weeks later.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I was a cook goose.
Yes. And then what's
the cook use reference?
She was screwed. So things weren't going
well. Right. And so I
had, I was really struggling
with it. And, um, were you still, I had a
relationship with the
relationship because
I'd be out of town and I knew he was
seeing, uh, the other
girls in the apartment complex,
the whole trip. It's awesome. This tells
you you should get married.
Huh? No, he's saying like the
foreshadowing would have,
should have been a warning.
Yeah. Right. Of course. But she was 20
and I had nobody, you
know, you realize that I am
somewhat determined. So if I think
something, I've never heard this side of
it. This is awesome.
So he was seeing your friends or all the
girls in the
apartment while you're flying.
Yeah. You come back. We're
together. Oh yeah. Oh no.
And, um, so then what happened? So I was
having a hard time with it
and then with work and I had
asked my supervisor if I could have, uh,
some time off because, and I
told her, I can't even tell you
now what was wrong, but I told her blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
And she said, no. And I said,
well, then I'm going to have to quit. So
wait, let's backtrack. So
dad was, um, seeing other girls
while you were traveling and it was
affecting you emotionally, mentally. So
you wanted to just take
a break. You were probably like, I need a
week to figure this out a
month. I need a month to figure
out what I'm doing. And she said, I can't
give you a month. And you
were like, so I quit. And I'd
already put in my, um, request to
transfer to San Francisco. And it came
through the last week.
But I didn't know that. Yeah. No. So then
you went back home and
you moved back to Portland.
So, and he would call me off and on. And
I got a job and was working
and I, I want to say I was
home probably three or four months. And
he called and I said, I'm not
coming back because he wanted
me to come back. So I'm not coming back
unless we get married. I'm
not doing that. And he says,
well, we'll get married. And I said,
we'll get married without,
because his family was coming
into the picture with it. Right. Because
just to give some backstory,
he was, he's our, my dad was
I'm half Armenian and his whole family's
Armenian. And at least at
that time you were, he would have
been expected to marry another Armenian.
Oh yeah. But he also would have been
expected to come home
and have a big wedding at home. Right. I
didn't want that. Right. Um,
but he said, said, no, we'll
do this and this. And of course then when
I got there, it all
changed. So he agreed to what you
your demands basically, you said, we can
get married, but I don't want a big
wedding in Michigan.
I want to have a small wedding, Kansas
city or whatever. And
we're going to live our life in
Kansas city. Well, we would go wherever
he was going to intern. Okay.
And, but we would be married
already. And then you went back to Kansas
city and then he asked
you to marry him. Well,
he asked me before I came back. But with
a ring and stuff. Did he do that?
Uh, no, I didn't have a ring until, well,
let me finish. So I came back.
I worked at a hospital secretary to
hospital. And then when
he graduated from, um,
med school, then, uh, we went, moved to
Dearborn because we
were going to get married.
So you, okay. So that was going to
happen. He basically
said, we have to get married
in Dearborn. So he said that, yes. Okay.
And it had to be a wedding the way they,
it had to be like a traditional Armenian
wedding, traditional Armenian wedding.
And his family wanted him to get married.
That was the expectation to
him. Right. And if you think
a lot of expectations that they put on
him, that at the time I
would never have understood.
Right. And so, and I don't know that he
could have explained it to me either,
but I definitely wouldn't have understood
the culture difference was huge.
And he was the oldest son and yeah, there
were a lot of expectations. So you guys
moved back, moved to
Dearborn and did you live together?
We lived at his folks house. Okay. Not
together. Not together in
separate, separate rooms.
Even though you were married, they
weren't married yet. And
how long did you live there?
Well, we got married June and June, so
maybe six weeks. So we got married.
So you, okay. So you lived at his folks
house. So they knew we
were going to get married.
I don't remember the steps to it, to be
honest, but I wanted to get
married before we moved to
Michigan. He says, it's just not
possible. So they knew we
were going to get married.
And so things start planning while we
were. So they planned your
wedding while you were in
Kansas city. Well, kind of. Yeah. And
then you showed up and
we're there for the final
plans the last six weeks before the
wedding, basically. Did
you have a say at all?
No.
No, I don't think so. Right. No.
Did you like, so you didn't pick like
your cake or your the
table studies or the flowers?
No.
What about your? Well, no, I think Chris
and I went and picked flowers.
His sister.
And the cake. I don't remember picking
out the cake. So that may
have just come with the hall.
That doesn't make sense, but it was a
hall that had a big wedding.
And you weren't trying to pick in the
venue or any of that
or the planning of the.
No, I'm sure I looked at it. I'm sure I
was sitting there, but I
wouldn't have had an opinion.
Right.
And they treated me
wonderful. Oh, yeah. No, no.
No, no.
They were mean to me or anything like
that. It's just I didn't know.
Right. It feels like it's what's that
showed my big fat Greek wedding.
Yeah. Yeah.
And they kind of kind of like that.
Kind of like that.
So there's a protocol.
Yeah. Yeah.
And so they.
And you were this young 20
year old girl that's coming.
I was 21, I think 21 by then.
But coming from Portland and not having a
lot of life experience and certainly not
having experience with
other cultures. So very naive.
Very nice. And yeah,
very on your own too. Right.
Pretty much. Now my folks came out, but
it it was expensive to come out.
And my family, we had nothing.
And I didn't realize that growing up
because what you have is what you have.
But we had nothing. I mean, my Nana came
with them. They drove out.
They drove from Oregon to Michigan.
Yeah. And because flying back then would
have been too expensive.
Right. And grandma was afraid to fly.
So but even so.
And they Diana and
Marty were married already.
Like your aunt.
And mom and dad and my sisters stayed at
their house and Nana.
My brother was in Vietnam.
He wasn't there.
So Auntie Diana hosted.
My family, grandma and
grandpa and Annie Bonnie.
And then you were
with Barbara and Barbara.
And then you were with.
And I was staying at that at Bob's house.
With Grandpa Barking, Grandma.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah. And then that's how it went.
And then you got married and the ceremony
was in Armenian, right?
In the church.
Yes.
Yes. So you didn't even know. How did you
know what to do or say
if it was in Armenian?
Somebody said, okay.
I don't know. You just knew.
I had a trip. So it wasn't in
English. It was in Armenian.
And I didn't walk down the
aisle to here comes the bride.
It was an Armenian song that they use and
it was like, sounds like a funeral dirge.
You know, was, was your uncle hot chick
doing things then make a music?
Oh yeah.
Was he the musician or
his band at the wedding?
I don't remember.
He might've been too young.
No, he wasn't too young.
No, he and were married and had kids.
Yeah.
I remember Lori.
Yeah.
I remember being little
and dancing to his and so.
He may, they may, he may well have, I'm
just saying, I don't remember.
Yeah.
And then did you guys go on a honeymoon?
No. The next day he went
to start his internship.
And then did you get your own place?
We rented a house in Livonia.
Just the two of you.
Yeah.
Little brick house.
And were you a stay at home wife?
Yeah. He didn't want me working.
So you were home and very isolated.
Annie, Diana and uncle
Marty lived just up the road.
And I don't know if they were there then,
but and Chris and hot
chick were over that way.
And I probably spent
every day with one of them.
So you spent your time with
his sisters with the family.
Yeah.
With the family.
Because they would have welcomed you and,
and, and, and been there and all that.
But still none of your
friends from home, not your family.
Like you're in this new place.
We never went home to visit my family.
So my family didn't exist for him.
So like our family in
Portland, did they ever meet him?
No.
Like Annie, Judy and uncle Doug.
When, well, when he came
out, once we were divorced and.
So later years.
Later years.
He came out and Annie, Judy.
Met him.
I don't know that uncle Doug did.
Okay.
So this eventually they did.
Okay.
So I assume at some point you
guys wanted to start a family.
Well, we didn't talk about it.
It just happened.
Okay.
So there's not a lot of
communication for no communication.
And that's what you do
when you get married.
So would you say at that time in the late
sixties, because you got married
what year 1969, would that have been
normal for the couple to not communicate
on a deeper level about roles in the
marriage or when are we going to start
a family or any of that?
I don't know.
I don't know.
But for you, but for me,
it was not a conversation.
I mean, you just get
married and you hum along.
You kind of use like, uh, aunt Chris and
aunt Diana as a guide on what to do.
No, I didn't use anybody as a guide.
So you just, we were just married.
We were a couple.
Okay.
Just like a young couple.
Yeah.
The part that was kind of missing in a
way, and this is, was my immaturity.
And then I didn't get is we
didn't have a friendship really.
Mm-hmm.
And so we did things together.
We went to family things together, but
your dad had his work life.
And then he had family life.
And I didn't fall into
his work life at all.
I was just in the family life and it was
a very patriarchal culture.
So, and I also grew up with, um, was told
by my mother, you do
what your husband wants.
If your husband wants to move, you move.
If he wants to do this, you do this.
Um, so I didn't come with any sense of
what a marriage was supposed to be.
Well, you kind of did, right?
And I was going to ask you that, do you
feel that what you got yourself into
modeled maybe what your mom, her marriage
was to your point,
you kind of just said it
to you, right?
Where you, if your
husband wants to move, you move.
If you, if he wants to
do this, you do this.
And so is that, do you think that was
sort of the model you were
following or the playbook?
I think I took her words to the furthest
extreme because she and my dad,
um, there was a lot of
interaction with them.
I mean, we had a decent home life.
So, yeah.
So you think they probably had a little
more balance than that, but you took
that what she said and,
and use that as a guide.
Yeah.
Really.
And, um, so what, so you guys didn't talk
about a family, but you ended up,
well, we knew we were
going to have children.
Right.
And so we did.
Okay.
And do you want to talk about that?
Well, we had children, not really.
Okay.
So, well, we should say there was a baby
before me and then I was born.
Right.
Right.
I guess I can't talk about it because it
does kind of fall in.
I just don't want this
to be long and weird.
It's not going to be long and weird.
Okay.
And you can just say whatever you're
comfortable with, you know.
So your dad was in his
internship and I got pregnant.
And then when I had my first baby, she
was anisophilic and she
lived maybe two, three days.
Um, anisophilic is when the top portion
of your brain, your brain,
stem, right?
Well, your skull doesn't close.
And so your brain is all, um, open.
And then, um, I got pregnant again, uh,
with you and you were born.
Um, 12 months to the day on the same day.
Cause she was born, she was named Mary
and she was born March 10th, 1970.
And I was born March 10th, 1971.
That's wild.
Yeah.
And what did dad tell you about that?
I thought you had said, he said God gave
us was, he was going
to give us another one
on that day or something.
And it was something like that.
Yeah.
And so then I was born and they didn't
know why Mary was born like that,
especially at that time.
Right.
Right.
There was no, there wasn't, there were
no, there was no amnio-centesis.
Right.
That was just coming in.
Yeah.
Um, so there was no genetic counseling.
Right.
Uh, you were on the forefront.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, um, so we moved out from Livonia
when you were a baby, we moved out,
maybe we lived there.
Oh, we might've lived there before I had
you to, um, square lake
apartments in Pontiac, Michigan.
And we had an okay life.
I mean, I had you, he was gone a lot.
We should say he was a ER doctor.
Yeah.
So he had long shifts and long shifts
and, and he was just gone.
He was gone being social.
Yeah.
So then, um, I ended up pregnant again.
Oh, I love, uh, quickly.
Yeah.
And, um, had, uh, Mary Beth, who is
actually like Irish twins.
11 months, right?
Yeah.
11 months apart.
10 months apart, 11 months apart.
But she was born with, um, uh, somewhat
this not, I can't remember all the terms.
Isn't that terrible?
But somewhat anosophilic, hydrocephalic,
and, um, just a lot of problems.
And they did surgery on her
and they lost brain matter.
And so she's legally blind.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So she acted that surgery.
Pardon me.
When I, I'm trying to
think of the timeline.
She was born and grandma had come out and
because you guys didn't know anything was
wrong until she was born.
Right.
That's correct.
So you had no way to know.
No.
And, um, pardon me.
Grandma had come out and she was born and
I was, came home without her.
She stayed at the hospital.
Yeah.
Um, go ahead.
Do you know if your
grandmother came out when you were born?
Was that a thing or did grandma come out
before Mary Beth was born or after Mary
Beth was born?
We decided that I was
going to fly out at that time.
My mom and dad lived in San Francisco and
I was going to fly out with her and stay
there, you and I.
So wait, let's backtrack a little.
So Mary Beth was born.
Right.
She is legally blind.
She can't, the way I describe Mary Beth
to people throughout my life is if you
picture Helen Keller, but there's nothing
going on in the brain where Helen Keller
could think Mary Beth can't.
Right.
My time in meeting her, she seemed to
know what was going on.
She showed emotions, but
she, she was legally blind.
She couldn't walk.
Right.
And, uh, but she could hear she, so she
wasn't with her little braces on.
She can walk.
Okay.
She doesn't know.
Like, no, her, her
development is like eight months old.
I know the development.
It's, she is severely retarded.
Right.
And so it's not like
having a down syndrome.
No, no, no, no.
So, so a tragedy.
Um, and you were at 23 when all this
happened by the time this all happened to
you, these three kids,
23, 23 and a half, maybe.
So you had the first
baby, me and Mary Beth.
By the time you were 23,
this all had happened to you.
Yeah.
I was just pregnant, pregnant, pregnant.
So my whole marriage, I was pregnant.
And then two traumas within the two
traumatic pregnancies went by the
time you were 23,
over a three year period.
Yes.
And, um, so I assumed that things that
was part of the decision making and you
going back to San Francisco.
I went back to San Francisco
before she had the surgery.
Okay.
And we didn't know when she was going to
be able to come home.
And I hadn't touched her.
I hadn't held her nothing.
I just couldn't, I just couldn't.
Yeah.
Because once you touch the
baby, then they're yours.
But if you don't touch
her, then she's not mine.
That was my thinking.
That's how you coped with it.
That was how you coped.
And so I went to see
her just before we left.
You grandma and you and I, and grandma
said, you need to
pick her up and hold her
in case she passes while you're gone.
And so I did.
And of course then all that, that
maternal stuff began, but we left.
Right.
We were in San Francisco,
maybe a week and a half.
And dad called and
said, you need to come back.
She's going to come
home from the hospital.
And was that a shock?
Yeah.
I was surprised that, uh, cause we
weren't gone that long.
So we came back and she came home and.
And then you had her and I.
Yeah.
We took care of you.
Yeah.
And I had a diaper service.
Thank you, God.
They were big service and, um, yeah.
And I had you and you hummed along taking
care of this incredible special
needs child and a young, what was I?
You were little.
One.
You were a baby.
Right.
So, but then we moved
to Bloomfield Hills.
We bought up a home, a nice home there.
Your first birthday.
No, your second birthday was there.
Um, and you know, life kind of went on.
And then I was pregnant again.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, and I had an abortion because I
could not go through that again.
I think that is
completely understandable.
Your dad didn't agree with me.
Right.
That's another story.
Right.
So at any rate, so we were there.
I think, I think as a woman, just woman
to woman, I can't, I think most
women would have made that decision if
between those three years, they had
suffered such trauma, I don't know
anybody who could have
then handled another.
You're playing Russian
roulette at that point.
So I think that decision is, is one of
the most sane decisions a woman in your
situation could have made.
So I was fine with the decision.
Yes.
I knew I couldn't.
No.
I couldn't do that.
Especially at such a young age and
without the support
you would have needed.
I had no support.
You had no support.
I didn't have my family
just was, I had no support.
No.
And at the time too, cause
this would have been 1972, 73.
It's not like mental
health was discussed.
It wasn't like therapy was, I mean, that
would have been a stigma.
Even so, even so, um, obviously your dad
and mine relationship had already.
Flipped out the door.
That's what I was going to ask.
Oh yeah.
After probably really after the first
baby in a way, and then we had you
and that was just a blessing.
Like a lifeline.
And then we had Mary Beth and I think
that was the nail in the coffin.
That was the nail in the coffin.
He felt it was me.
He didn't feel that he
had anything to do with it.
Um, and that I, it just for him, and you
have to understand he
was a first born son
in a paternal culture and that
he grew up and he was perfect.
He was perfect and he
believed he was perfect.
Truly he did.
Right.
I can relate to that.
Yeah.
And so, so the first baby would have been
such a shock to him to, I mean, to both
of you, of course, but life, life
altering for both of
you, but for someone coming
a different way for
him, two different ways.
I mean, the first baby
already had the nursery set up.
So I had to come home
and take the nursery apart.
So all those things that happened to
women that lose their babies.
I did all that.
And alone, alone.
Yeah.
And then Christine
and Chris had the twins.
So I would go over there and help her
with the babies and she'd say, I
don't know how you can do this.
I don't know how you did either.
Mom, because I was
disassociated from disassociated.
That's how you coped.
You were on autopilot.
You completely disassociated.
And I'd say, well, what do you mean?
Right.
I, it just is like my brain
was only this big at that point.
I just did not, I couldn't.
Um, it was your brain and body were
helping you survive and they
completely made you disassociate.
I did.
So you and dad handled
it in two different ways.
Um, the first baby, and then probably
when I was born,
there was that glimmer of
hope and then Mary
Beth came and it was gone.
It was done.
So the marriage was done probably.
And again, that's another reason why when
you got pregnant again, that decision.
I'm happy you made that decision.
I thank God you made that decision.
I don't think you would have survived
any, any, another thing.
So, you know, I think everything at that
point you were doing probably after the
first baby, and you can correct me if I'm
wrong, you were in survival mode.
Oh yeah.
But after the first baby, um, yes, it
was, it was traumatic,
but I was still, I don't
know how to explain this naive enough or
young enough that I just felt like, you
know, that we could get through anything
if we're together, cause that's what
marriage is, is these are problems, but
we'll work together and God will be with
us and, and we'll work this out.
I couldn't imagine
anything causing a divorce.
Right.
Right.
That's my, but divorce wasn't
that common back then, was it?
I mean, I'm sure it happened, but it
wasn't like it is today,
but no, not like today.
Yeah.
Right.
But no, but I, but for me
personally, I mean, right.
Yeah.
It was never knowing he might, uh, that
he might have affairs or something.
Um, I would have worked through that.
Right.
Cause women do work through that.
Yeah.
Well, you do.
It's kind of like good fellows, right?
Or that, that, that, that mob culture
where the men do what they want and the
women stay there, it's kind of a little
bit like that, you know, you just kind of
look past certain things and you keep
living your domestic life.
And as long as the domestic life's okay,
things can be fine, but the domestic
life wasn't okay.
So, um, so after, um, you had the
abortion, you guys were
still married then, right?
And you were still living together with
Mary Beth and I in the house, but
something must have taken a turn.
We decided, I decided, to be honest, I
can't tell you the steps.
Um, when I, well, I guess I can a little
bit when I took Mary
Beth in to the doctor
her neurologist, I can still see him.
And he said, you
realize she will never sit up.
She'll never roll over.
She's never going to do anything.
And so, and I was sitting
there by myself hearing that and.
You know, but I, I don't know what I did.
I didn't do anything.
I took her home and.
That's crazy.
Took care of her and, um, and your dad
did a lot of this is,
we need to do something.
You can't take care of her.
Uh, this is going to ruin you.
We need to find some place
for her to be that kind of talk.
Yeah.
That you don't keep
us a severely disabled.
Mentally and
physically severely disabled.
And so there was that going on a lot with
him talking to me and
I don't know at what
point, and I don't know how I did it, but
we found, uh, I'm sure I found it.
A place that took care of,
um, disabled and children.
And I went out and visited,
it was in Warren, Michigan.
So it was a drive, but I went out and
visited it and all of that.
And then, um, she was accepted there, but
he wouldn't go with me.
So I was going to have to take her by
myself to leave her.
And one of our
friends wives came with me.
And I took her, put her down in her bed
and unpacked her stuff and, and left her.
God, I can't even imagine mom.
I cannot even imagine.
I think she was nine
months old and you were 24.
I was.
And so where she was at, I would go and
visit her all the time.
And they also had a very
strong parent group there.
So I became involved in that and we did
luncheons and we did all kinds of stuff.
Yeah.
Were they supportive?
Was it helpful to you to
be around these people?
I guess.
Yeah.
Remember I've just associated.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're just going through the motions.
Yeah.
And, um, yeah, and she got
PT, you know, lots of things.
Well then, um, and involved one, I don't
know when it was, but we did a fashion
show and grand, your grandma and Diana
and Chris, we all worked with me and we
donated stuff and they all came and so
family was supportive
as much as they could be.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Um, they were, right.
They were, they didn't,
they were very supportive.
They didn't shun you.
No.
And they didn't shun her.
Uh, aunt doe and uncle Jim just loved her
to death and took care of her a lot.
Yeah.
And uncle Jim worked for the Southfield
police at that time and they did a, had
some kind of thing going on and he put
her name in and they did a charity
thing for her.
Yeah.
So it was all, she was
still part of the family.
She was still part of the family.
And then, and I don't know
how or what this happened.
And then she went out to, um, the
beatings, the beat,
Mary beaten angel on earth.
Yeah.
And she had her, she had a daughter that
was horribly disabled and they took
Mary Beth in.
So it was in their home and she really
lived in their home for a very long time.
And then their daughter passed and it was
time for them to go on with their
life and their children were there.
Are there regular children?
Yeah. Normal children.
I mean, it was the
perfect, it was God sent.
It was a God sent cause we weren't there.
I didn't move back to Oregon.
Yeah.
We haven't gotten to
that part yet, but yeah.
So the beatings that I, whenever I would
visit my dad, I would
not spend time at the, I would not spend
times with my dad would take me out there
to see Mary Beth and
they were wonderful to me.
Wonderful people.
And wonderful family.
The school that Mary Beth went to, um,
was where Sue who takes care of her now
was a teacher there.
And so when Sue learned that Mary was not
going to be taking care of Mary
Beth anymore, Mary Beaton was not going
to be then Sue, uh, set it up where she
would take Mary Beth and we worked it out
with your dad and I worked it out.
And of course, because your dad was
there, um, she
interacted with him initially a
lot, just for the basic things.
And Mary Beth's been with her ever since.
Right.
Okay.
So Sue took over from there.
Right.
And then she still takes care of Mary
Beth to this day in her home.
Yes.
In her home.
So what happened after, like, so you had
Mary Beth as a part of the family.
She's at, she's with the beatings now.
Um, and then what happened?
Then she went to Sue's.
No, no, but I mean, in our life, like
what the social, so yeah, Mary Beth,
like Mary Beth settled.
Mm hmm.
So now it's just you and I at the house.
Right.
And we packed up your dad
and I decided to divorce.
Okay.
So that's when you guys printed him about
some stuff and that was the
only avenue left to do.
And so, um, we packed
up, we sold the house.
Um, and we started divorce proceedings.
And you and I went to Oregon.
So you went back to Oregon and then, um,
but we didn't finish the divorce until
the first of the next year
for tax reasons, I think.
Okay.
So that would have been, I think 74
because we were married five years.
And during that five years, I was
pregnant the whole time, basically.
Right.
Where did we live when we went to Oregon?
When we first came to
Oregon, we stayed with grandma.
Okay.
In her apartment.
Yeah.
And then I got the, um,
townhouse on Jennings Avenue.
Okay.
Where were, is that
in Southeast Portland?
In Milwaukee.
Milwaukee.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah. And that's where we live.
And we spent almost every day with Judy.
Your cousin, my cousin,
Judy and her children.
And that was our life.
I have a question.
Um, you said you moved back to Oregon and
lived with your mom.
Did she and your dad get
divorced during that time?
I don't think we talked about that.
My mom and dad got, my mom and dad got
divorced when they were in San Francisco.
And they got divorced
about the same time I did.
And so I didn't talk to my own dad for, I
don't think I talked to
him for five or six years.
Like out of anger.
I did.
Yeah.
Because did he have an affair?
No.
You were just upset that he
wanted a divorce of grandma.
So you went through all this stuff with
dad, the babies, the trauma.
And then your parents got divorced while
you were getting divorced.
Just after around that time at 24.
So I went through, I got through all of
that stuff by the time I was 25.
And then I went to like Kaya's age now.
Yeah.
Then I went, we moved to Oregon and if it
hadn't been for Uncle
Doug and Annie Judy,
you know, I was, they really.
Saved me.
A lot of talking, a
lot of just being there.
And feeling supported.
And, and having support with me, like I
could be with Wendy and Jason, my
cousins, and you could help me bring some
normalcy into the home.
Cause those are good memories for me.
They should be.
We did.
It was a nice time.
It was a great time.
I remember we went and saw Greece.
So how long, how long were we in Oregon
before I saw dad again?
Well, how did we do that?
Initially you would see him.
Initially I went with you and we would
fly out and I see
Mary Beth and the family
and you'd see dad and we'd be
out there a couple of weeks.
Okay.
And did we do that regularly?
Yeah.
And then did you end up getting a job in
Portland eventually?
Um, I didn't get a job
until, well, let me go on.
I was not working.
I did not have to work.
Okay.
Dad was paying for alimony and stuff.
Yeah.
So I didn't have to work, but so my
personal social, your social life was.
Cousins.
And then, um, we went to, um, nursery
school, you went to nursery school
and, um, just half day.
And, um, my social life was going bowling
with Doug and Judy on the CF bowling
league and we'd go, I want to say it was
Tuesday night and I'd take you up to
Judy's house and the babysitter would be
like a couple of doors down, little girl
and she'd come and babysit you kids and
Doug and Judy and I would go bowling.
People were so nice to us, to me.
I mean, they knew Doug and Judy and then
we drink beer in the lounge afterwards.
And it was just a great time.
A lot of laughs.
Yeah.
Healing.
For me.
Cause I was a wackadoodle.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So how long did that lifestyle go?
I don't know how long it went.
Um, because you can't remember certain
parts of that life, right?
There are certain parts
that I don't remember.
I can remember things, but I don't
remember when they happen.
Right.
So there's certain parts like in Michigan
and stuff that I don't remember when it,
I can't tell you, oh, it was June of 24
or 24th, 71 or something.
I don't know.
And there's some things I
just, I just don't remember.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's part of the, they're blocked out.
So while we were living in the townhouse
there, I would fly down to visit with Pat
and Joe, who were good friends of yours.
Good friends of mine in California.
They lived in California, but I met Pat.
She lived in the apartment below your dad
and I on Square Lake in Michigan.
Oh, okay.
So that's where we came from.
I mean, our friendship came from, right?
And she moved to California.
I mean, life happened.
Yeah.
And so she, uh, married Joe and, but I
would go down and visit them.
Yeah.
And I decided that, you know what?
I was just going to move down there.
Yeah.
And this was Northern California.
This is a Sunnyvale area.
Yeah.
Well, San Francisco area, San Francisco
area, just south of San Francisco.
So we packed up our stuff and, uh, took
off and down with, there we went.
I found a duplex to live in and you
weren't working still.
So this was just like, Hey,
you need to change the scenery.
Going to go live down by your friend,
Pat, friends, Pat and Joe.
Yeah.
It was a horrible decision, but yes.
And I was what, like three.
Yeah.
Maybe three and a half.
Okay.
This is pretty Apple.
Oh yeah.
Apple space in Sunnyvale.
Yeah.
Before Silicon Valley.
Silicon Valley was there, but it was just
starting because I went to work.
Well, so we got there and, um, I got a
job as a receptionist at the company.
Pat worked for.
Yeah.
And I put you in daycare.
Yeah.
And then, um, and life happened, you
know, there was a lot of
partying, a lot of, um,
I wish I could do a lot of that time
over, but, um, that's the way it was.
And then I got another job with Amdahl,
which was the direct competitor of IBM.
So Mr.
I don't know who started
IBM, but he was working.
He was one of the ones that worked on the
first computer type stuff.
Very nice man.
But yeah, so I worked there and were we
in the duplex still
when you worked there?
Yes, because, um, I hadn't met Rob.
I had met Rob, but can we tell the story
about the boyfriend?
And the fire or not.
You got us.
Tell it now.
Jeez.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Well, we can edit out when
I see these, the co-cares.
Okay.
We're not, we're editing that out.
Co-cares.
There's no co-cares.
Um, so, so you met
you were in the duplex.
Yeah.
And so I met people at Pat's work and I
started going out at dating
this one guy and, um, I don't know what
he was into, but obviously nothing good.
And then we had stopped dating and right.
But then I started dating Rob.
This other guy, this other guy.
And Rob and I had been seen, been
together for awhile.
And then one night, um, the neighbor
knocked on our door or called us.
Called us and said, you've
got to get out of the house.
It's on fire.
Well, the front door is on fire.
I don't remember where else.
I thought it was just the front door.
Could have been.
And,
But he had put some gasoline or whatever
under the bedroom windows too, but I
don't think it had caught yet.
Like my window and the guest bedroom had
gasoline under it, but I don't think it
had caught yet.
Yeah.
So, um, I jumped up and
yelled at you to get up, get up.
And you did.
And I said, we've got to get out of here
or whatever I would have said to you.
Yeah.
And you care.
It came flying out of your bedroom with
your little fishbowl in your hand.
Put it back.
You're not taking that.
I grabbed the fish.
Well, I remember the
Swiss Swiss Swiss Swiss.
It's just, I went down the hallway.
Like we got it.
It was tadpoles that day we had been at
Rob's sisters and we as Gen X children
were feral and we were in one of those
like water pipes or whatever.
And I got a bunch of tadpoles and I
brought them home and they were in the
fishbowl and then the house got on fire.
So I had to save the tadpoles.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So then, um, Rob, Rob was there.
Rob got up and me and you and we're going
down the hallway and we went towards the
front door, of course,
you couldn't open it.
Yeah.
So we went out through the
back and my dog was out there.
Yeah.
I was barking and the fireman came and
the fireman came in.
They hit that house up on the roof.
Lickety split.
Yeah.
And another night he threw
rocks through the window.
That was before that.
Wait, I'm confused.
I don't know who.
Well, I don't think it was him.
Who would randomly throw rocks.
You had to go back to
our, we was a duplex.
We were in the back.
The other guy was in the front.
You had to purposely walk back to us.
So, um, the house caught on fire from the
previous boyfriend or.
Yes.
The previous boyfriend, but I don't know
if it was him or
somebody thought he was there.
What was his name?
Mark.
No.
Oh, okay.
So it's not, it's
irrelevant what his name was.
Some dude.
Yeah.
But okay.
I picked up on the fact that Rob,
Oh, Dave, Dave, Dave.
That's right.
He didn't even convertible.
But at this point, it's, it's the you two
and Rob are living in this place.
Yeah.
It's not just you and Nicole.
No, Robert moved in.
Okay.
Well, I don't know.
I kind of glossed over the dinner.
I think he was just sleeping over.
No, I think he had moved in.
So then eventually, well, we
didn't move out of the duplex.
Then I remember the door
got fixed and all that.
We stayed in the day there.
It was smoke filled.
Oh, okay.
I don't remember where we went.
When we moved over to that
house, the one on black Hawk Lane.
Yes.
That was a nice house.
Yeah.
And somewhere in there,
Rob and I got married.
Yes.
But I don't know when it was.
They got married at the courthouse in
Sunnyvale because I was in the wedding.
Yeah.
I was in like a hippie dress like a
flower girl, like a very late
seventies looking dress with a flower
wreath in my hair or something.
I don't remember.
Yeah.
And, um, it was very Northern California
living during that time.
Then afterwards, that was my first
stepdad just to keep everyone.
Was that your first wedding too?
Or my first?
No, I think I'd been to Armenian
weddings, but that was my, my mom, the
first wedding to my mom.
Yes.
I've been to.
Yeah.
Okay.
I had such a boring childhood.
So then we all lived together, right?
You, Robin me all live together.
And we're doing pretty good.
And he got a job.
Um, he worked at Intel and he got Tran.
I wanted to move back to Portland because
I felt that the pace of living down there
was just too fast for family.
And I couldn't handle it.
I was moving too fast and I was trying to
raise a daughter and I wasn't, I
wasn't available.
I wasn't doing a good job.
The margaritas were flowing.
They were flowing.
So this one you had the grandma.
No, she had a pacer, a yellow pacer.
And Rob had a red Volkswagen bus.
Yeah.
Like 70.
I don't know, but I didn't, I didn't, did
I still have the pacer?
Yeah.
In Northern California.
You did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I remember the gas lines
when Carter was in office and I
remember laying in
the back of that pacer.
There was no air conditioning.
The windows are down a sweating in a gas
line because I don't know what happened.
That was in Oregon.
Oh, was that.
So the pace remained it to Oregon.
I bought it and then
we moved to California.
Okay.
So you moved back.
We moved back.
We moved back because I
wanted to move back to Portland.
I just needed to family there too.
Yeah.
And so we didn't move by them.
No, that wasn't my draw.
That wouldn't have been the
decision to make apparently.
Well, we didn't move by them because we
moved by where Rob worked.
Work.
Right.
And so we moved to Aloha out.
Was he still with Intel?
Yeah.
He, and he worked at
Intel in Hillsborough.
Yeah.
So we were out.
To there.
Yeah.
I've met this is the, for younger people,
this is the beginning of the
Silicon forest, where you had the Silicon
Valley in San Francisco, but
Hillsborough Beaverton
Aloha was a hotbed for tech.
It is still.
Yeah.
That was the beginning grown up.
I mean, the farms are gone.
Yeah.
When we lived down in Aloha and all that,
there was, there was nothing.
It's where Nike is now.
It was farms.
Yeah.
It was nothing.
None of that was there.
Intel was there.
Cheap land.
And this is when to swing back around,
like this is where I was probably, I was
first Alachiki kid, because I remember
coming home to that
house and that's where
I would do the Gen X stuff of, you know,
I had the key to let
myself in, do my homework,
clean the house, set the coffee up for
the next day, all those things.
And then you'd come home.
I'd go out and play with friends.
Oh yeah.
You might've done that because Rob and I
were in this little house and then Rob
and I get divorced
and, um, just loving it.
You say it so casually.
We got to work and then I had to go to
work and I got a job
at St Vincent hospital.
Yeah.
And that's when you became your latch key
kid in that hospital wasn't that far from
the house.
Yeah.
It was Beaverton, but yeah, not too bad.
But not, I mean, it was just right there.
Yeah.
It really wasn't.
It was far enough.
Please anyway.
And so that started my personal life at
St Vincent hospital as a single mom, as
a single mom, and I worked for the CFO
and he was a single dad.
And so he, he was really good as far as,
you know, I need to go or I need to do
this.
He was really good.
Very, very saucy.
Then, right.
I mean, when I worked at and all in
Sunnyvale and you were sick or something,
when I would have my review, I got
written up because I was home because my
daughter was sick.
Yeah.
That kind of stuff went on for women.
Well, when you were, I guess in
California, when you
were entering the workforce,
that was really when women were just
starting to enter the workforce, right?
And then through the eighties where there
was the big working woman movement,
women were working in the seventies
because the women's
movement was going on.
You mean a different type of, like a more
of a corporate job type of thing?
Yeah.
Moving into the corporate.
No, I mean, in the
seventies when you started doing it.
I guess it was really, it was the
seventies when you heard they were doing
it, yeah, to help you with the timeframe.
So in the seventies, when you did that,
but when you were,
but women were working,
they were working, but that whole big
woman's movement push really happened.
The seventies and
eighties go up through the.
A career, a career.
They were chasing a career.
And when you and dad, um, first got
divorced, I remember you telling me you
that was, you could, I think women had
just started, um, being able to get
a credit card in their name at that time.
That was out in Oregon.
Yes.
All the credit cards were in his name.
And so I had no credit established.
And so I got a credit card.
I just couldn't believe it.
And I got that pacer on my own.
And, but that was around the time.
I think you had said that women were just
starting to get credit
cards in their names and get bank
accounts and their names so they could
get credit that early mid
seventies time, which is crazy.
If you think about it, it would have been
mid seventies, mid seventies is when
women could get the credit card and get
the bank account and their husband's
name wasn't on the
card or the bank account.
That blows my mind.
That's insane.
And then you bought a
car and I bought a car.
That's why you love that car so much.
Cause you did love that car.
I did.
I loved that car.
It was bright yellow.
Yeah.
And so we lived that life and, uh, you
know, I would, um, come home the last
key kid and we, you were a single mom.
And, but then from the time I was five, I
would fly back and see dad.
Yes.
And so I was still seeing him, seeing him
on Christmas, every other Christmas and
in the summer and the summer
for like six weeks or whatever.
Um, and so we were humming along.
And, uh, then you met somebody else.
What numbers?
Uh, this would be, uh, three, three.
Who's counting?
Yeah.
Well, we're humming along and we moved
from Aloha, uh, to the house on Parkway.
And Beaverton.
Yeah.
And that's where you went to elementary,
finished your elementary and junior high.
And then I don't know
quite how it happened.
I think we'd gone up the river with
Sharon up the river.
That's what they call it.
Nor get up the river.
Well, you know, where it was in the south
on Mount state Hillands, but we
called it going up
the river up the river.
And, um, which river?
Like the Columbia?
No, it would have
been, um, like the most.
Oh, maybe I don't know.
The Washington side or
the Washington Mount st.
Hillands is in Washington.
There's a lot of rivers there.
Yeah, there are, but they just called.
I don't know what
that one river is called.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Not a big deal.
Um, Oh, I probably did it one time.
Um, st.
Hillands had already blown by this point.
Cause that was 80 when it blew.
And this, we're in the early eighties.
I don't think there would, you'd be going
up the river post eruption.
Cause it, you know, changed
the landscape quite a bit west.
Yeah.
No, no, it went, we east, north and east.
Okay.
And this was on our side, the
west side, but you know what?
Yeah.
Because st.
Hillands blue and 80.
I remember mowing the
lawn and the ash coming up.
I know.
I just got a brand new lawnmower.
Yeah.
I don't think I was seeing punk.
You weren't, I'm saying punk East post.
Yes.
By the way, his name is Greg in real
life, but his nickname was
punk and this would be number three.
Okay.
So anyway, we went up the river with
Sharon and he was there because he
has been sharing cousin Sharon.
And he was there because he was a.
Fireman housekeeper,
not a housekeeper, but a.
Took caretaker, a caretaker for this
large lodge that was there.
It was like a, uh, commu, like meaning
there was multiple buildings.
Yeah.
And it had like a water.
It was cool.
It was very cool.
Very cool.
He lived in a trailer.
Yep.
On property.
Nothing says husband
material more than a trailer.
He's a fireman.
Yes.
And, um, you guys hit it off and we hit
it off and I can't tell you why.
Well, I do know why, but I don't know
that Mary should have
been the answer to that.
Right.
But we did hit it off
because he was very attentive.
He, he, if I wanted to say, you know,
let's go to the beach.
Okay.
So we'd go out and I'd say, Oh look,
there's, there's a sign.
And he says, yeah,
let's see what's there.
Wow.
So that's nice.
It was nice.
And I'd never had that really.
Yeah.
Um, but then.
Cause it was Rob, not like that.
Did he give you more pushback?
No.
Rob was kind of in the drinking days.
So he's just partied with you.
You guys party.
We party.
The group we ran around with party.
Yeah.
So anyway, um, so you and
punking did things together.
We did things together.
Um, but what would happen?
Well, we did things together when you
were with your dad and then you'd come
home and life would, you know, get back
to normal and that's when things would
start falling apart,
it was jealous of you.
Yeah.
And his children were jealous of me.
And I was trying to
keep all the ends together.
I'd be at work and he'd call and say, she
hasn't done anything.
Okay.
Do you mean like complaining about her?
Yeah.
She hadn't done the dishes.
She hasn't done anything.
Okay.
Did you ask her to well, so I'd have to
come home and say, would you please
sit at the dishes or that kind of thing?
Um, part of that was, I think he didn't
want to overstep as a stepfather, but
the other part was
because he was an asshole.
You can cut that out if you like.
No, that's vintage.
So he was he, but in
some way he and I did click.
Yeah.
Um, and we would do like
family vacations and stuff.
And it's a lake chest on a
boat, like a houseboat together.
And Annie, Judy, and Uncle Doug.
That was fun.
Yeah.
We went up to the
world's fair in Vancouver.
Yeah.
Yeah, we did.
Yeah.
And the kids, his children and, and
Nicole were very different.
Although Nicole tried to get along with
them, but they really
were quite different.
Yes.
Were you guys close in age?
I know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, and I'd been over backwards trying to
make them feel comfortable in our home.
Had her room for them and anything we
did, I included them.
We bought, uh, I bought a lot of gifts at
Christmas and just, but it just was.
It sounds like, uh, you probably didn't
get along with their mom.
Well, right.
That sounds like she didn't even know.
I wasn't even in the picture.
It wasn't even in the picture.
He didn't get along with her.
Yeah, obviously.
But the kids were, yeah.
And some of that stuff was
me trying to create this.
I think Punky did was
like out in left field.
He didn't even know I should do that in a
way, you know, he was
just so at any rate.
So we hummed along and,
and this is through, they got married
when I was in eighth grade.
So, excuse me.
Um, just as a side note, they got married
when I was in eighth
grade and my dad also
remarried my stepmom for the second time.
And when I was in eighth
grade, you get a great pass.
I love it.
Yeah.
So that was in Vegas.
Um, and then Punky and my mom got married
in our house on Parkway in the house.
In the house.
Yeah, it was actually, it was nice.
Academy minister come.
Yeah.
And, uh, and then we moved
to another house in Beaverton.
Then we, yeah.
And then that's
through my high school years.
Yeah.
This Punky.
I loved that house.
That was a nice house.
It was a nice house.
That's the million.
Yeah.
Really was a nice house.
Yeah.
So, um, and so things come along, but
then I believe there
were things going wrong.
And you were struggling and I was
struggling with you and I
was struggling with him.
And one day I said, you know what?
Cause we drank, cause alcohol was
somewhere everywhere.
That's wild because to
this day you're not a drinker.
No.
So you, well, this is why.
Um, but I was then I could, I could
drink, but I said to him,
Pat and Joe had given us
like a case of this lovely Italian wine.
And I think we drank it
in a week, the whole case.
And I was like, wow.
I said, you know what?
We're drinking way too much.
So we had that little talk.
Right.
And I said, let's stop for a while.
And he goes, okay.
Yeah, that sounds good.
I said, okay.
But then after a week, I noticed that
there was stuff missing out of the liquor
cabinet, he couldn't stop.
Yeah.
And once you stop drinking, if you have
someone who is drinking, drinking, it
just corrodes things.
And unfortunately my personality, I can
go along not very
long, but I can go along.
But then once you cross that line,
there's no going back.
There's no, there's no going back.
I'm done.
And you need to leave.
And that's what happened.
Basically what happened?
Yeah.
And then you guys got divorced.
We sold the house and got divorced.
And then you and I moved
out to a apartment in West.
Oh, so far away.
My senior year, pretty
far away or junior year.
I can't remember, but it
was far away from your school.
It wasn't really that far away, but it's
the only place I could find that would
take a dog.
Like out 26.
No, the other way down.
No, like Beaverton's here or 26 is here.
And it would have just been
down one of these streets.
I think it was tiger
ended up towards Tigard.
It took like a while to get to school.
Driving.
Yeah.
But there were new apartments.
It was a new area.
They are building up.
It was a nice area.
So that was my senior, my
senior open house was there.
So, and then, um, and then after I
graduated high school, I went to college
and then you stayed in that apartment.
Right.
But then eventually you moved.
I bought, um, this was another great
decision I made Oregon city.
Yeah.
I bought a mobile home and moved to
Oregon city, drove
45, 50 minutes to work.
That wasn't a mobile home.
Actually it was, it was
more of a manufactured home.
There is a difference.
Hey, I think it gets wheeled in, but a
mobile phone is like a trailer.
I don't know.
I think they're, they're about the same.
It's like a prefab more so than a.
No, but it sits on, it's sat on blocks.
They wheeled it in.
Yeah.
It was a nice house.
The, the, um, floor plan was nice.
It was said.
Yeah.
So yeah, she bought a
manufactured house in Oregon city.
Yeah.
So, um, the only hard part part for me, I
think you did it to be close to family.
Cause our family lived on
that side of the river at least.
And then, but for me it was hard cause I
came home, you know, from college and I
wasn't at my home, my town to drive 45
minutes to see friends and stuff.
But it was like being in
a different city for you.
Yeah.
I didn't, it was like totally different.
It was different environment.
Totally.
Completely.
So, but that, you know, it's whatever.
Um, but I think you enjoy living there.
I did for a while.
Yeah.
And then, uh, it was a long, long drive.
I don't know why I really did it.
I mean, I, yeah, just
making those decisions.
I think, you know, I think being closer
to the family was, I remember that being
your dog and Judy were 20 minutes away.
I remember that being your reason was you
were close to the family and you were.
And I was.
Yeah.
And you would come home and, um, I got a
second job out at the dog track.
Yes.
As a paramutual clerk.
Yeah.
So I would work three, four nights and I
would leave St Vincent hospital.
Drive out to the dog, Greyhound dog park,
which was way out in bike trout
and work and then
drive home to Oregon city.
And that whole time for little karma was
sitting in that house.
Our dog.
Our dog.
Yeah.
Then you finally, I was so glad when I
took her to college and she enjoyed,
she loved that.
Yeah.
I'm just having people.
Oh my God.
It just breaks my heart
when I think about it.
Yeah.
But she, she, then I
took her and she was fine.
So, and then eventually, you know, um,
Brian and I got
married and you lived, we,
moved back to Portland and had our first
son Nathan and you were very involved
grandma, but then we moved, we left
Oregon and moved to New Jersey.
And then eventually you moved to New
Jersey and then you've kind of been with
us, not living with us.
You do now, but wherever we,
some ways off and on until I get my feet
established, I have.
Yeah.
You've kind of been with us and with the
kids and, and would you say, um,
cause well, everything we just talked
about, uh, there's tons of ups and downs
and it's fairly chaotic.
Would you say that becoming a grandmother
was healing for you?
Oh yeah.
Well, when you kids decided to get
married, as you probably know, I wasn't
in favor of it, not because I didn't like
Brian, but I didn't want you to get
married so early, right?
We were 23.
I wanted you to travel.
I wanted you to do the things that I
didn't get to do, which a lot.
And, but you were determined.
And so you did.
Yes.
I remember, I remember that you, you, it
was hard for me to, I didn't know that.
Yeah.
She, she thought it, I fought it for
quite a while mentally.
She had you, did you know that?
Did you guys talk and know that?
Like, I think, yeah, sure.
I did.
Yeah.
She wanted me to travel.
She wanted me to have some youth before
getting married because, you know, I
think her whole experiences with marriage
and children and all
that were so dramatic
that if I was in her shoes, I would have
felt exactly the same way.
You know,
well, and you know, it's funny.
It's like when the kids will say, you
know what, and even you have, you have
said, well, what was the music like then?
Or what's that going on then?
Back in the sixties.
Yeah.
No, not in the sixties.
Like when I was married to your dad.
Okay.
And I don't, I don't, so when I was in my
early twenties, I, I wasn't listening to
music.
No.
So I can't tell you, I mean, I was
listening to music, but
I wasn't like going to
festivals or any of that stuff.
Right.
And my focus was not on music.
It was survival on survival.
Yeah.
Such a shame too.
Cause if I were you, I'd be going to dead
shows in the Bay area.
I would never have left.
It was such a great time for music and a
great, you were where it was happening.
Well, if you're living in a very
different shows, but
I wasn't a dead head.
No, I know.
Yeah.
But I think again, going back to, I think
you handled it really
well because we also
got married in Vegas.
So it was all, it was very much like
we're 23 and we're
getting married in Vegas.
And it was all chaos.
Coming from, you know, I'm essentially
your only daughter and you did a good job
controlling that cause that would have
been, if it was me, I don't know.
That would have been very hard for you to
have that faith that
it's going to be okay.
Your marriage.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, I'm sure it was
terrifying to some
degree and you're probably
concerned I was going to repeat.
When, when, when did you
finally become okay with it?
Like five years in, was it when Nathan
was born or yesterday?
Yeah.
You still have problems.
I think that, um, before you were
married, I mean, I just
think that I had to give
up that dream for me, dream for her.
And just like when I wanted to buy her
beautiful, beautiful wedding dress and
just, she went along with it to a certain
degree, but really pushed back and that
kind of stuff.
So you, because her
dress was very simple, right?
It was custom made by a woman
in Eugene, a hippie in Eugene.
It was white velvet.
Yeah.
And you wanted
something more traditional.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
I wanted it to be beautiful.
I know.
I know.
She, our wedding wasn't the wedding.
I like it though.
I think it's full.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do too.
I do too.
But that's part of what I had to go
through those processes.
And then, you know, we had your bridal
showers and that kind of stuff.
And it just was then.
Our, nothing we did that
was traditional, right?
Cause same with my, even my
parents were more traditional.
100%.
You know, they would have probably
preferred, we got married in the church.
Yeah.
So we got married.
Oh yeah.
Oh, for sure.
For sure.
Yeah.
I don't think anyone was on board with
the marriage except Brian and I.
I don't think anyone was down about it.
I mean, I will say my dad went full in
though for me, for us, like as far as
the venue, as far as everything, like he,
you know, he even got a purple tux
cause that was my color, you know, so,
um, everyone went in on it once it was
happening by the time that, yeah.
Yeah.
But I still think even people were like,
what the heck, you know, what's
happening here.
But it was a wonderful wedding.
Oh yeah.
Oh my God.
It was so fun.
The best wedding.
So fun.
And you guys then started your married
little life and then you had Nathan
and that was healing.
Yeah.
And, um, cause your
dad wanted a son so bad.
That's all he wanted.
That's all he wanted.
I mean, I grew up knowing that and it's
funny cause when you grow up knowing
that as a woman, as a girl, you feel then
automatically like you're not
enough because you're a girl.
Right.
And that's ingrained in you immediately.
And I'm sure there's other girls that can
relate to that, you know, cause I'm
sure there's many, many men like that
that are, you know, one a son and
so badly when a son,
there are, and it also as a wife that
you, you couldn't give him a
daughter's yes.
Let alone that he's the one deciding the
sex, but you know, but
so Nathan was like, so when dad came out
and saw Nathan, when Nathan was a baby,
um, I don't know where you guys were, but
we were sitting out on the deck at
Jerry's parents house
and he was holding him.
And I don't know what I said to him.
I, I just said, you know, it just, it
was, I said, this just heals things.
Doesn't it?
And you go, yeah.
Yeah.
I remember when I told him I was having a
boy and he said, you just fucking made
it. Like he was just so, and he didn't
say that, that stuff a lot like that,
but that was, that was like a big deal.
He, it was a big deal.
It was a big deal.
And, and I think for
technical pops over here,
but I think for all, you know,
on the other side of the
chaos, coming downhill.
And then of course when Kaya was born,
she, you know, he
just got such a kick out
of her little personality.
And then, and then, you know, he, in
2003, he died in a car accident.
So he never got to meet Dylan and he
would have just, I
mean, having two boys would
have been like everything, you know, and
he would have gotten a kick out of him.
So that's, you know, he would have.
And fortunately he
saw Kaya that November.
Yeah.
So I think he was out probably for her
birthday or something.
She turned three and he just loved her.
He did.
Oh, her person, he got such a
kick out of her personality.
So, um, I know they were healing for him,
but for you to have, you've been able to
be a part of that, you were there when
Nathan was born literally.
Yeah.
You had one of my legs, but, um, watching
them grow up and being so involved in
their lives, um, has, I would assume has
got to be, have healed some of that part
of you.
Oh yeah.
And it's, and it's why I,
I just couldn't live away.
Right.
I had to be closer.
And, um, and it's also, you know, when I
don't know how to explain this, but
because of the trauma I went through at a
young age, just as far as children goes
and that you experienced too, and, um,
that when people have children or it's
a, a wonderful thing and like all
birthday should be
celebrated and you go all out.
Yes.
And we go all out.
And some of that isn't just because we go
all out people, although that's in there,
yes, but it's because we know I know how
precious life is and for children.
So you see people, you don't probably,
well, you know, that
maybe they had a boy.
A girl, they wanted a
boy and I think, Oh my God.
And you know, it's going to be okay
because that's just that
initial reaction for guys,
but kind of are a woman.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, um, I think that we, I grew up
knowing this from the
time I could understand it
that if your child can walk, talk, see
here, um, there's, that's it.
Like there's nothing else, you know, and
we know how precarious that is.
And there's a high, there is a high
chance that that won't happen.
Not that if they can't walk or can't see
or can't hear, there's
anything wrong at all.
I mean, those children can live very full
lives and, um, our children of God and
our loved just as much, but it's, it's
understanding that
that's all that's important.
You know, the other part of it too, is
that we didn't talk
about this and there's not
much to talk about when dad remarried or
when dad married Sue,
no Pat, whatever her name
is, Pat, um, and they had
a child had spina bifida.
Yeah.
And so it became very obvious where the
broken gene was that
it wasn't, wasn't you
me, it was him.
Right.
To me, but it did matter
to him and his family a lot.
Of course.
But then with that, I've always lived
with what will happen
when you have children.
Right.
What has been passed down.
And then I think about my grandchildren
and I think was that
just past male to male?
Or is it just, was just one of those
fluke things for him and it wasn't past.
Kaya and, and, um, what's the snow's
Dylan don't have to worry about it.
Yeah.
But I still worry about that for them.
Of course.
And that's probably also a lingering part
of your trauma too,
you know, but thankfully
with the way met medical, the medical
industry is now
there's so many things you
can do to know ahead of time, you know,
I remember going to, uh, Kaiser, the
genetic counseling when
we first got pregnant.
Yeah.
And you were explaining
everything and they're like, uh,
they asked for pictures.
Yeah.
I don't think they'd
seen, they didn't believe me.
They didn't catch onto
this genealogy at all.
Yeah.
I explained and they wanted me to bring
pictures back of Andrea and Mary Beth.
They didn't believe that.
I think it was too big of a tail.
And then when I did, they're like, Oh,
but with all three
kids, we had amniocentesis.
It's just, you have to, when you go
through something like that.
So, um, you know, I, I know for the kid,
the kids were also healing for me too,
you know, having the kids.
So they've, they are very symbolic, not
just our children and we love them and
your grandchildren and you love them, but
of having a family of, yeah, because of
everything you went
through and everything
you and I went through, they represent
like your dreams and my dreams.
Is that we were finally able to have
that, you know, so
that's why we go crazy with
birthdays or if they do something or you
go to every game or
whatever, a lot of like
in my family, it's been said to me in the
way that my family says things.
Maybe I don't want to
say this, you can say it.
We can edit it out.
But, you know, it's like, well, do you
think they want you there at every game?
You know, maybe they'd want to, maybe
you're overstepping.
And so I thought about that and I
thought, well, I don't care.
Yeah.
Which side of your
family has that perspective?
Like it was that I only have my mom or,
well, I mean, more your mom or who, or do
you not want to say, I don't want to say,
okay, just her side of the family.
Yeah.
But I mean, it's, it's just how we are.
It is.
But your mom and dad
were that way too, though.
They went to everything.
And so I think that that's a part of
family life that I wasn't, I didn't know
about even for my own family.
I didn't know about.
And I didn't know about growing up.
It's really fascinating because for me,
that is just the way it is.
My parents went, I wanted them there.
When I look at my
cousins, it's that's how it was.
That's just how it is.
What's fascinating is the,
we come from different worlds.
What you're describing
is just remarkable to me.
I quote, my world was
quote unquote normal, right?
Yeah.
But I mean, it's just proof it works out.
Are you talking about you and me, like
you and me coming from different worlds?
Is that what you mean?
Even what your mom's describing, it's not
really in line with, I think what my
parents went through in terms of their
parents didn't get divorced.
They had healthy children, thank God, or
whatever, but, um, just very different.
But it all works out.
Right.
It's just kind of keep
plugging along and good things happen.
I guess.
By the grace of God and the kids again, I
go back to the kids, the kids.
Having our kids is truly what I know in a
lot of ways, save my mom.
And, um, healed me.
Well, um, you were there for Nathan, but
you and I both got Nicole through
labor, right?
And then you were there for Kaya too.
Not in the room.
Not in the room.
She wasn't, I came
after, but a few days after.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
She was like maybe
five days old or six days.
Okay.
What about Dylan?
She was here, but I wasn't in the room.
Okay.
Only in the room for Nathan.
Okay.
But she lived here.
So she came in.
So it was just Nathan.
Nathan.
She, because I think you guys want to
just have you guys in the room for Dylan.
Yeah.
After we did it the first time, we're
like, okay, we can do this.
We also needed childcare.
Yeah.
True.
True.
We need somebody to watch.
That's true.
There were going to be somebody to watch.
We need somebody to watch.
Yeah.
So, um, one thing we didn't touch on, we
forgot one important thing is.
Uh, you, there was, uh, you found
something out when you
got married about your dad.
Oh, to throw this into the fun.
Then, um, this was right.
I feel like we've lost over certain, some
of these things here.
We have.
Yeah.
Um, when I decided to marry, right.
And I was still in Oregon
and, um, mom set me down.
Dad was there too, but down and told me.
That dad wasn't my real dad.
That I had another father.
Um, and she had me when she married dad,
I was a little girl, a baby, baby, not a
baby, baby, but yeah, little one.
You already born.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And that, um, they never told me.
And the reason they didn't is because dad
didn't want to deal with.
That other family entering into this
family, his family, he
wanted it just to be his family.
And, but when I was younger, uh, my
grandparents would
come and pick me up and I
would go out and stay with them.
The biological grandparents, uh, paternal
and stay with them for a day or two.
But I was small, like I,
uh, in a high chair age.
Um, and they, mom said they loved me and
they were heartbroken when
they couldn't see me anymore.
And, um, so that's when I found out that
dad wasn't my biological dad.
Well, I was 21.
It's when I got married.
So up until then, until you were 21, you
thought he was your biological dad.
Mm-hmm.
And what was the decision
in telling you at that point?
You know, I don't know, maybe because I
was going on to my adult life and, and I
think mom had wanted to tell me.
Maybe I don't really
know the answer to that.
So she had married Mr.
What was his name again?
Winter.
Winter divorced.
Mr.
Winter had a little fun fun.
Yeah.
Had you.
Yeah.
And then married grandpa all within like
a year to two, two years.
I think I was, I was
probably 18 months or something.
Like a couple of years.
And she was young cause
she was 18 when she had you.
Yeah.
She just turned 19 and she had me in
October and in January she turned 19.
Okay.
So that, and then you got married.
Yes.
And then I got married.
And then when I got divorced, when I was
staying, we were staying at grandma's
house, apartment, she, she and Anna Jean,
and I don't know how they did it, but
they kept in contact with people that
knew his name is Russ.
Russ.
You're a real dad.
And
she had gotten ahold of him and said, you
know, we were there.
And she'd really like him to meet me.
And so he came over one day and I can
remember he walked in the house and I
thought, Oh my God, I look just like him.
Wow.
It was such a strange feeling.
And it really was.
I was just like, Oh, I
do come from somewhere.
Cause I'm so different than my siblings.
You are.
Yeah.
You're blonde there, brunettes.
That's right.
And personality is totally different.
It's genetic.
It's just different.
So he held you on his lap and we sat and
visited and we liked some of the same
things.
And I, I was just like, wow.
And, but he turned to mom and he said,
you know, why did you send me away that
day and mom didn't really answer him.
So I don't know why she did.
Cause I think he wanted to stay.
So he wanted them to be something, wanted
them to be together.
So that, so when he left,
he said, I'll talk to him.
I think her name's Mary and
I'll get back in touch with you.
His wife.
And mom said that his wife never believed
that I was his and was always part of the
reason why there was no contact for him.
And they have a
daughter, her name's Debbie.
And he said, I'll talk to
Mary and I'll be talking to you.
And I never heard from him again.
Wow.
That's crazy.
And I was the baby.
So you were like
little 25, 26 when all this.
Yeah.
So then I don't know what the timing was,
but we went out to visit.
Mom took me out to visit his dad.
His mother had passed away and his new
wife and they were older.
But he was one of the ones, he was the
one who took care of
you when you were little
who came and picked you up.
So we got there and, um, he was kind of
standoffish and he said to mom, he says,
what is it you want?
Cause there'd been no contact.
Yeah.
And mom said, I don't want anything.
I just wanted Dana to have the
opportunity to meet you.
And his wife, I don't know
her, what her name was or is.
Um, she had a box of pictures, uh, from
when I was a baby, cause we didn't have
any pictures of me when I was a baby.
Right.
And then some of his daughter Debbie, you
can't tell us apart.
Wow.
Yeah.
Did you ever meet Debbie?
I don't think she even knows I exist.
Would you ever pursue that?
I haven't.
I forgot my ear.
Um, I haven't.
Judy's and I've talked
cousin Judy, cousin Judy.
Um, I think, no, I never did.
I never did pursue it.
And she said, Judy, cousin Judy said, you
know, why don't you?
And I said, well, she slipped all her
life and doesn't know I exist.
And her Russ never called us back.
Yeah.
And I don't want to back then.
I don't want to go in and start chaos in
her family, whatever her family may be.
But I know she got to go to
college cause she was a teacher.
Oh,
you know, what's interesting is, um, when
did you find out that
you had a sister you
didn't know about when you
found out about Jennifer?
That was kind of a gift
to you in many ways, right?
Yeah.
It was awkward, but I found out about
Jennifer right after.
So my dad had, um, his, his best friend
who was a girl, um, and
him ended up, um, yeah.
She got pregnant.
I think they were what 16.
So they lived kitty
corner from each other.
Yeah.
They lived kitty corner.
I didn't know about her
till just before you did.
You didn't know that after we were
married, I found out
after we were married, after
we were married, I found out my dad had,
um, a relationship with his best friend
and she had gotten pregnant.
And my, the story I've been told is that
my, his, my grandfather didn't approve.
Um, they were Polish, I think, or
something and, but not Armenian.
And, um, so she actually ended up
marrying his other best friend.
The three of them were
best friends, I think.
And that's who her dad is.
Is he's a wonderful man who raised her
and, um, married her mom and all that.
But I found out about that.
She even existed when I was 23, uh,
literally months after a few months
after we got married,
maybe I was to just turn 24.
And he called me up one day, my dad did
and said, Oh, did I ever tell you about,
so casually, I remember that.
Casually.
Yeah.
And I, I, at first I was, I was crying.
I was, when you came home, I was upset
just because it was, well, there's my
story as a whole nother story, but
there's a lot with my story.
So this was another thing with my story.
But, um, I ended up calling her.
I don't remember when, and we were on the
phone for I think four hours.
It was like, it was like you, you
describe like, um, she was my sister.
Like she, we like the same things.
We talk the same.
We, I don't know.
I can't describe it, but she's my sister.
I always send you just all of a sudden I
know it's like a puzzle piece.
So, and then we ended up seeing each
other, meeting each other for the first
time, um, when Chico and Chico,
California, that's where she lives.
And it's, uh, Nathan,
Kaya was like three or four.
This would have been, um, like over 20
years ago, but we haven't
seen each other again since.
And I, it's on my bucket list.
I really want to see her and spend some
like a weekend with her and just really,
you know, reconnect and
we're friends on social media.
So we followed, you know, we're involved
in that way, but, um, not the same,
but a similar surprise, you know?
And I was just thinking about it.
You know, I wonder if though your sister
would, the other, the
other, the full claim is she would maybe
be happy to know she has a sister.
So it's a risk.
It's a gamble.
Well, it is a risk.
And you know, I'm old enough now.
She would be younger than me, obviously,
but I don't know by how much.
Yeah.
But still it's like,
it's a risk, you know?
Yeah.
But you would have to go through one of
those, um, things where you, the
genealogy, what, uh, you know, the
ancestry.com or something like that.
But you would, she would come up, her
family would come up.
I would think so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that could be another exciting
adventure in your life.
But the good news is, is through
everything you've
gone through, especially
in your early twenties, if you really
think about everything you went through.
With dad, with the children, finding out
your dad is not your biological dad,
getting divorced and your parents getting
divorced all by the time you're about
25 years old, it's a miracle that you
were able to continue on in the way you
were and marry other people.
So when you, and marry other people.
So when you ask me,
well, what do you think?
And I say, Oh, about a guy.
Yeah.
And I say, yeah, I'd
have coffee with him.
Yeah.
But I'm not interested.
Yeah.
You're done.
I'm done.
You've been done for a while.
Done for a long time.
And in a lot of ways, it's unfortunate
that I didn't have the wherewithal to go
to counseling and get some of this
resolved so that I could have been.
Had a relationship and a
more normal life for you and me.
Right.
But I didn't.
Yeah.
And, but I think part of that could be
also part of the boomer generation.
I don't know if your gen,
your generation was not raised.
My generation wasn't raised with mental
health being discussed.
Your generation certainly wasn't.
You just fail forward.
You just keep moving forward.
Yeah.
And no, definitely it wasn't.
It wasn't.
It was not.
It was.
No, it was looked down upon, you know,
and honestly, a
closet secret in a family.
Yes.
Yeah.
So even if you would have attempted,
cause I think we did
attend therapy a little bit,
but it would just, if you would have
gone, it would have had to
have been intense therapy.
It would have.
Unpacking a lot.
Yeah.
And so that would have
required guidance and support.
Yeah.
And the one therapy we did do you and I
did with that
therapist and I went on my own.
Yeah.
Up until I talked with him before that,
since I had Mary Beth,
anytime I spoke about her,
my body would shake and
my, I would just shake.
Yeah.
And, um, I can't tell you
what my insides felt like.
And then when we went to that therapist
and then I spoke with
him from that point on,
I never shook again.
Yeah.
I don't know what he said to me, but he
acknowledged something and,
and of course it's PTSD or
yeah, PSTD or whatever.
PTSD.
No, it's what it is.
I'm sure that he, um, validated something
that you needed validating because
made it.
Okay.
Yeah.
He made something
where I didn't, oh my God.
It's shake so hard.
Well, they say that if you're, if you
don't deal with something
with your mind, your body
will deal with it.
So yeah, either you're going to deal with
it or your body's
going to deal with it, but
it's going to get dealt with.
Have you ever thought like, do you, can
you think of say what
maybe the root causes are
the first memory of that trauma?
Was it, was it the first child or it has
to go deeper, right?
In your own childhood, you have, you
know, kind of peeling
back an onion here, I guess.
And, but you know what I mean?
Well, yeah, I don't think it in my own
childhood, I think there
are a couple of things in
there.
Like I, I don't do confrontation.
I'm not, I don't do confrontational.
Also, when people
argue, I get upset inside.
Um, so do we trigger you at times?
You have.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
And not that it's not okay, but there it
just, and also, um, the
other part, uh, I have
is, um, um, what do you call it?
Like dreams or repressed memories or, um,
being, um, not wanted, um, abandonment,
abandonment.
And I think that abandonment issue
probably goes back into my childhood
somewhere that it started often does.
I think I do too.
And as I said, we moved and then we moved
and I was a shy child and it was really
difficult for me and I didn't really come
into myself where I until.
Until I, quite frankly, or even once we
started having kids and you started
healing there, I think in some ways, like
we just talked about, right?
Yeah.
I remember your dad said to me one day,
Oh, it was at his birthday party.
I think his last birthday party, we were
at a restaurant and
it was down the stairs.
Him and my uncle Tom.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I was sitting there
and he was sitting there.
And, um, he said to me, he said, I know
sometimes that you don't feel like you're
part of this family, but I want to tell
you that you are, and
we're glad you're here.
I'm so touched.
And that's really sweet.
And I thanked him obviously, but he was,
he was very, uh, intuitive, intuitive.
Yeah.
Cause I did feel that often cause I
didn't know what to do with it.
Yeah.
I didn't know it's not that I didn't like
anybody or anybody did anything.
I just didn't know what to
do with all this family stuff.
Yeah.
Because your only exposure to that type
of cause the Armenian
family is very lively
and big and all that, but you're, you
have so much trauma wrapped into that.
There's so much trauma wrapped into it.
So Brian's family, which is Irish
Catholic and I'm also from West Virginia.
Um, it's big, it's loud.
There's a lot going on.
That could be very jarring.
It's like West Virginia is its own thing.
Well, I mean, there's, there's Irish,
there's English, there's
German, there's West Virginia.
Well, I mean, like your mom's Irish
Catholic, your dad's from West Virginia.
Let me be clear.
Yeah.
But there's, when you go to West
Virginia, there's a lot of family.
And when you're in New
Jersey, there's a lot of family.
So, and that can be jarring for someone
that's not used to our family.
Wasn't like that.
Our family.
Yeah.
My exposure to that
was my Armenian family.
But that was very much like that.
But that was sporadic.
That was summers and every other
Christmas and some weddings.
But of course that was a draw to me too.
Of course.
Cause you wouldn't realize this.
But, but yeah, I just didn't
know what to do with painful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because our, because in Oregon, it's
more, it's a more quiet family.
It's a more quiet experience.
Yeah.
So it's just, it's different, but that
was, that was sweet.
He said that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that if you take
everything into
account, it, to see where, like
Brian kind of just touched on it, I think
your real role was grandmother.
I do.
I think that was the, the healing role
for you and the one where you probably.
Finally could just enjoy, stop and enjoy
and not be struggling or not be trying to
figure something out or not be trying to
fix something or trying to create.
Um, something, it was created then
finally it was there.
It was.
And in a bra in ways, I probably can't
even really describe.
I just know that Nathan and Kaya were at
the age where they were moving away from
me and then you popped up with Dylan and
I can remember thinking, Oh my God, my
grandkids are moving away from me.
What am I going to do?
I mean, it was a natural move.
It was the way it was supposed to be.
Physically moving, just
like growing up, growing up.
Yeah.
Oh, well we did.
We physically moved.
We lived in Oregon.
No, no, but she's talking about now, like
when Dylan right before Dylan was born,
they were getting older
and not needing her as much.
Yeah.
In the same way.
Yeah.
So then I can remember feeling anxious
about that really anxious.
Cause my identity is tied
into, you know, being a grandma.
Anybody I work with,
they only know me as.
Grammy D.
That's yes.
Grammy D.
That's what we call it.
You know, us Grammy D more than Dana.
Yes.
And so then when you called and told me
you were pregnant with Dylan, obviously
it was like, Oh my gosh.
But I was so.
Yes.
You were very happy about that.
I was.
Yes.
The other baby is going to save me.
That's hilarious.
Yeah.
And I'm sure I, I don't know if I've ever
asked you this before, but, um, does
seeing Brian and I have been married 30
years now and together 32 does seeing me
have a long longevity
and a successful marriage.
It means the world to me.
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
Yeah.
And that, and that I wouldn't want either
one of you to go through.
A marriage being split up with children
and with, I just would not, it just,
yeah, it's just awful.
Yeah.
And seeing that there's, um, a man that
can be a good husband and a good father.
Deal with your byproducts.
Nice.
But that can, that is a family man.
Well, obviously he's let
me live here with you guys.
Yeah.
I mean, my life would be so different.
Yeah.
So I think that's touching
on what I was saying earlier.
It just works out.
It, you know, your background burst, my
background, it's totally different.
Right.
And, and it's just worked out.
She's been married for 30 years, three
beautiful, healthy, wonderful kids, you
know, so it's, it's, it's worked out.
Yeah.
Well, thank God.
Yeah.
And, and for you too, you know,
it's what's interesting is to me is with
the having grandkids, if you think about
your grandparents style, it's probably
different than any other aspect of your
life and that you give them unconditional
love and where you probably don't have
time or patience and other
aspects of your life, right.
But you give your grand children
unconditional love and they feel it.
They know it.
And so it's an
interesting dynamic, I guess.
But I think that happens to all
grandparents because
you'll see people say,
I don't know who this person is, but my
kids get everything they want.
But when I lived with that person, it was
not like that at all.
Yeah.
But it's like when Nathan was born, it's
just, there's just something about
having it be your child's child.
Yeah.
That it touches your
heart in a different way.
You love them in a different way.
Yeah.
And yeah, I can't wait.
Everyone knows that I have, I have all
these toys in a storage unit for my
grandchildren.
We pay a monthly fee for this.
I'm not getting rid of them.
So no, we got rid of them once.
And then I got pregnant.
All those hot wheels.
No, no, don't even bring
up Nathan's Pokemon cards.
I do have a question.
Um, have you ever thought of this?
This is everything we just talked about.
There's a lot of
trauma, fascinating stuff.
Quite frankly, have you ever thought of
trying to peel back the onion further at
all? Like, you know, we probably opened
up some wounds here.
You know, have you ever, have you thought
of jumping into some of those and going
down those rabbit holes
and finding some answers?
Nicole's talked to me about
that, that I should do that.
Or I should think about doing that.
And yeah, I have.
I don't know what, I don't know what it
would change in the sense that I have a
wonderful life now and
I'm around people I love.
And I have, I mean, even through all the
moving, I have friends here that even
though I'm retired, I've still maintained
their friendship and my St.
Vincent group, when I go to Oregon, those
women I'm still close with.
I don't know what it would change.
Yeah.
Other than my own anxiety.
Like, and thinking,
okay, Dylan shouldn't be.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
And that comes from my anxiety.
Yeah.
You know, because I know he's old enough
to be doing that, but still.
Yeah.
But I'm, I'm better than I was.
Yes, you are.
I am lots better than
I was over that, but.
That's a great answer.
That answer makes perfect sense.
Yeah, I don't.
What's it going to, you
know, kind of at peace.
I mean, I think the only thing it would
help is probably anxiety.
But if you're able to manage it, then.
You know, I get migraines.
Yes.
Your body's your body's.
It's often though, do you?
Yeah, I get, I just not where I'm sick
like that, but I'll lose my
vision and that kind of stuff.
So I get the migraines unexpectedly every
couple of days, I'll have something.
And I know that's my anxiety.
Yeah.
So I mean, it's pretty, I think the
anxiety is pretty serious because
your body is dealing with it and you, and
that's been most of your life.
So, but you know, it's, it's, you have to
pick and choose, you know, if it's worth
that you for you to unpack everything,
would it make you feel better
physically with the migraines go away or,
you know, or if it's not even worth it.
But I don't know that that's worth it.
Yeah.
And, um, yeah.
Well, you know, they do
these guided, uh, psychedelic.
Type of therapy
sessions, trips in a sense.
I'm not even kidding about those.
She's already done her, uh, Northern
California trip in her life.
So no psychedelics.
Yeah.
Well, listen, we can't thank you enough
for sharing because we know
you don't talk about this stuff.
And, um, it's not easy
for you to talk about.
And so we thank you so much for sharing
it with us for getting it.
Um, recorded for our children and their
children and future generations.
And for our audience who I'm sure there's
someone out there that has been through
something similar that this will help
them, or they at least think, Oh, okay.
I'm not the only one.
Yeah.
You know, and, um, that's really the main
reason, one of the
main reasons we do this,
we're doing this podcast is to reach
people and hopefully help people or help
people, or, you know, of course we want
it to be entertainment and enjoyable,
but in situations like this, you know,
we're chronicling something.
We're chronicling something.
And so we, and, and also you're, you're
our first boomer that we've interviewed.
And so we thank you for representing the
boomer contingent here.
I'm sorry, but the story was a little,
uh, no long and, and unusual.
Unique people have unusual lives.
Yeah.
They do.
They do, you know, and it's
worth talking about and sharing.
And, um, you know, I think that overall
we're all interested in each other
and connecting in some way.
So I, again, we completely respect that
you shared this with us today.
And thank you so much.
And it was a great week to do it on
Thanksgiving, you know, to, to remember
also what we're so thankful for.
Nathan, Kai and Dylan.
And a wonderful son-in-law.
Oh yes.
And you're wonderful son-in-law.
So, and thank you to our
listeners for, um, listening.
And if you have any comments, questions,
or anything you'd like to share,
we always love to hear, and,
um, we will see you next time.
Thank you.
Take care.
Bye.