Episode 32 - Attachment Styles and Relationship Dynamics

[Music] Welcome to GenX Adulting and today we are talking about attachment styles. There are four attachment styles. There's anxious attachment. There is avoidant, which sometimes is called dismissive. There is fearful avoidant, which is sometimes called disorganized. And there is secure attachment. And your attachment style starts off based on it's rooted in your childhood and your experiences with your caregivers. And it's not necessarily anything your caregivers did intentionally. It can be, obviously, if there is abuse involved or neglect. But it also definitely can result from things that your caregivers did not do on purpose or with intent. So you kind of start off with a certain attachment style, but that attachment style can change based on different experiences through your life. So you could be shifted to a totally different attachment style based on if a trauma happens in your life or if healing happens in your life. If you go on a healing journey, you can completely adjust and pivot your attachment style depending on what happens in your life. So I think we're going to do a brief overview of the four attachment styles. Just to be clear, we are not experts. We are not doctors. We are not therapists. This is just us having a general discussion about it. And then we are going to share our personal thoughts on our own attachment styles and possibly even delve into how those attachment styles have affected our marriage over the last almost 31 years. While we're discussing the general overview, we may put up some graphics on the screen for those watching on YouTube. You'll be able to see those. But should we start with anxious attachment? Yeah, we could. There's a really cool resource out there called the attachmentproject.com.

for those watching on YouTube. You'll be able to see those. But should we start with anxious attachment? Yeah, we could. There's a really cool resource out there called the attachmentproject.com. Worth checking out. It's very interesting. Yeah. Those would probably be some of the graphics we put up just to... It's all about going from childhood all the way through adulthood and in a very interesting history on the guy who started that. Right. Go ahead. So for anxious attachment, anxious attached people crave closeness. They crave intimacy. They have a strong fear of abandonment. They think... This is all in general, but they think less of themselves and more highly of others. So their self-worth is lower than how they see other people. They're always afraid that their partner may leave the relationship or that their partner's feelings are not as strong as theirs. I think that they have issues with trusting and that a partner is going to stay. And that ties back to that fear of abandonment. Yeah. And then just the negative self-view. These seem to be an external locus of control as well. What I was reading is that they tend to be the pursuers of relationships. Okay. So they're anxious about the relationship. They're pursuing making sure everything's good, possibly overcompensating those kinds of things. Yeah. I think that they're highly codependent in a relationship and they are hyper aware of their partner's feelings and how their partner feels to the detriment of their own feelings and their own experience. One of the bullet points here is they elevate their partner above themselves. Right. Yeah. I mean, you could almost say, I'm sure there's times with anxious, attached people that they're martyrs.

One of the bullet points here is they elevate their partner above themselves. Right. Yeah. I mean, you could almost say, I'm sure there's times with anxious, attached people that they're martyrs. Potentially. You know, and maybe they, I don't know, but maybe they think that they will find and secure someone if they just constantly put that person up on a pedestal, that person will want to stay with them and never leave them. And as long as they don't do anything wrong, like, and they may view demanding and not demanding, but setting a standard for themselves that they require a certain level of respect. They may view that as if I demand that from my partner, they're going to leave me. So I'm going to make things as easy for my partner as possible so that I'm going to put no demands on my partner because I don't want them to leave me. Because I think with anxious attachment, it really always is rooted in fear of abandonment. Yeah, probably. So is that kind of what you found in your research? Is that is that line up? I guess. Yeah. Worries about being disappointed or abandoned. Yeah. Yeah. They're the one pursuing making sure everything's okay. You know, you're losing the relationship. Yeah, they're probably, I would think people pleasers big time. So so then if we switch to avoidant or dismissive attachment, so they have have very little interest in intimacy or closeness. They view themselves higher than others. So they're the opposite of an anxious. Their self worth is higher than how they see other people. They, they're uncomfortable with, with closeness and intimacy. They do not like conflict. And when conflict arises, they tend to shut down. Hence avoid the situation or anything. It's a deep emotional situation, which

closeness and intimacy. They do not like conflict. And when conflict arises, they tend to shut down. Hence avoid the situation or anything. It's a deep emotional situation, which obviously conflict is they hate conflict. They have difficulty. They prefer independence and have difficulty with trust. And I think that ties into the intimacy and closeness because you have to have trust in order to be close with someone. So this is an interesting one. One of the bullet points here is views dependence as a sign of weakness, not the skip ahead or get, but we've seen some of that in some of the commentary from the men that get that light up some of the things, you know, yeah, absolutely. They're super independent, especially on an emotional level. Like they, they, they're a hard nut to crack emotionally. Yeah. They do not share their emotions easily. Yeah. They do not want to depend on others. And they also don't want others to depend on them. So they don't do well in a codependent relationship. They also do not look to outside sources for approval or support. And that ties back to they have a high self worth, but that could be a detriment too, because you, if you don't really have decent self-awareness and if your ego is so, so, so high that you're with a, with an avoidant and their self worth is so high. And then we get into narcissism. That's a totally different topic. You could be living in a completely disconnected relationship, a disconnected life because you're totally self-sufficient in everything. So you're never really connecting to anyone. Yeah. Like they avoid connection. Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah. And I think that's everything. And then, um, well, there's one other bullet point on this

connecting to anyone. Yeah. Like they avoid connection. Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah. And I think that's everything. And then, um, well, there's one other bullet point on this thing I'm looking at is they challenge diverse perspectives. Okay. Which is kind of interesting. They don't necessarily want input from others. Okay. In this, you know, the, the psycho analysis of it. So they don't, um, they, it's like their way and they don't want to hear it criticism. Potentially. Or any input. But that could be go along with they want to avoid conflict or debate or having to open themselves up. It's almost like, I don't really care what other perspectives are. I've got this figured out. I've got my ball, my box and walls around me type of thing. But that's kind of avoided. Yeah. So it's like, I wonder how avoidance, um, are at work. Like if they're in charge of people or if they're not in charge of people and need to be trained or guided how they handle that input. Well, I, you know, we're kind of skipping ahead because I think all these things operate on a spectrum. Yeah. But I have a feeling in the technical world, uh, avoidance probably are the predominant screw. Yeah. So we'll, we'll touch on that as we're, cause right now, again, we're doing the general overview. Yeah. So then there's the fearful avoidant. Uh, they can also be called the disorganized avoidment avoidant. They're a mix of the two. I feel, I think the fearful of wean it is chaotic. Well, actually the first two bullet points here are negative, insecure view of self, negative, insecure view of others. Right. What's yeah. They have it. They do have a history of trauma or. And avoids closeness. Yes. Longs for love and rejects intimacy. Right. Yeah. Okay.

negative, insecure view of others. Right. What's yeah. They have it. They do have a history of trauma or. And avoids closeness. Yes. Longs for love and rejects intimacy. Right. Yeah. Okay. So, and that could be that push-pull tendency people do in relationships. That disorganized. That disorganized. The disorganized or fearful avoidant The disorganized or fearful avoidant could definitely do the push, push pull in a relationship push-pull in a relationship where they where they give you a bunch of love or they love bomb you a bit. bomb you a bit, but then when you react But then when you react to that, when their partner reacts to that, they pull away and they become distant. And so it's a game of, I'm going to push And so it's a game of, I'm going to push you away and I'm going to pull you back. And I wonder if the fearful avoidant, if that's their style, because they want the love, but love, but then when they, their partner then when they, their partner comes towards them for more intimacy, they reject that intimacy. So being in a relationship with a fearful avoidant or a disorganized avoidant has got to be completely chaotic. got to be completely chaotic and, um, you And you never, you, there's no trust. You could never trust where that person is coming from. Depending on each day, you could be with Depending on each day, you could be with in a different situation with your relationship. relationship. Cause how could you trust what, what, how they're going to act each day? Yeah. You know, and that can just be, and that can go on and on and on and draw out. Yeah. You know, I'm looking into it. This could be, I have these tenants, some of these tendencies. Oh, well, we're going to get to that. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I'm

Yeah. You know, I'm looking into it. This could be, I have these tenants, some of these tendencies. Oh, well, we're going to get to that. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I'm looking at this and I flipped to this other info graphic I have. And I'm like, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. No, we're going to get to our personal attachment styles in a minute. Um, they have difficulty forming stable attachments and this is the fearful disorganized avoidant. Um, and again, they may have both avoidant and anxious tendencies. Um, so the partner and relationship are both, okay, this is interesting of the fearful disorganized and avoidant. Their partner and the relationship represents both their desire and their fear. Yeah. So coming from the disorganized fearful avoidant, it's being with someone is that person is their desire, but also their fear. So you're never, you're never committing to anything. You're just constantly in, in fluid motion with this. It's there's never any stability. There's no stability. It's completely unstable. So yeah, it is. Um, they want closeness and intimacy, but they have trust issues. So that one sounds fun. I don't, I mean, yeah, this is interesting. Yeah. Some of these things definitely I can relate to or identify with, but others definitely not any in that particular box. Yeah. Okay. But we're not getting to that yet. Okay. Um, cause we'll get to narcissism another time. Okay. So then there's secure attachment and they are just doing awesome. They are comfortable with intimacy. They don't have trust issues. Um, they have no problem with conflict. They have no problem with emotions, um, with commitments. They're, they're just great. You know, they're, they can manage their own emotions.

Um, they have no problem with conflict. They have no problem with emotions, um, with commitments. They're, they're just great. You know, they're, they can manage their own emotions. Um, you know, they can depend on their partners and have no problem with their partners depending on them. And, um, they can either, they can thrive in a relationship or they can thrive alone. So they don't need a relationship or, but then when they have one, they do great. Yeah. So they're just secure attached people. They have a positive view of themselves and they have a positive view of others. So they just are doing great in life and in their relationships. And, um, they, like I said, they can regulate their emotions and, and they can help their partner regulate their emotions. So they can regulate their own emotions and they can help their partner regulate their emotions. So I think, and they, and from what I researched, that's the smallest percentage of people securely attached. And that makes sense because you think about it, right? You're looking at Gen X and millennials, which were raised by boomers. Um, so I don't know how Gen Z's come in. Gen Z's raised by Gen X. I would be curious how many Gen Z's if they're going to raise the percentage of secure attachment statistics. Because Gen X in general, in general has put so much time and effort into. Parenting their children, being present, giving them the childhood that they always wanted, being, being the person that they needed when they were children. Kind of being helicopter parents or fully being helicopter parents. But because of the way Gen X raised Gen Z, I will be really curious to see if Gen Z comes out as more securely attached in their relationships. I don't know, but it makes sense that

But because of the way Gen X raised Gen Z, I will be really curious to see if Gen Z comes out as more securely attached in their relationships. I don't know, but it makes sense that they're the lowest percentage right now in what's been studied because they're probably studying Gen X and millennial people more than the young group, you know? So, and if you think about where we came from and how it all starts in your childhood, that makes sense. So, so that's the general overview. And like you said, it's a spectrum. Yeah. Um, and it ebbs and flows depending on what's going on in your life. So now we'll get personal. And I'll start with myself. Um, I think I 100%, 100% spent at least the first 30 years of my life as an anxiously attached person. I think that when I, um, I had a huge fear of abandonment, I feel like I did. And I'm, I'm going to get in trouble for, um, cutting you off, but I don't think when you look at this, these, these, you know, infographics, I don't think you fall into that category as a parent. No, no, no. This is the interesting, but 30 years you've been a parent for longer than, well, right. Yeah. We had kids before 30 years. I was 26. Yeah. And I don't, I don't think, and if you think about your own background, right? You can, and I want to take it in a different direction, but you probably healed. You've talked about it. You healed once you had your heart, Nathan, our first, right? Isn't that probably cured some of that anxious attachment you felt you had? Because one of the signs of an anxiously attached parent style would be parents tend to over-involved the child in their own feelings and emotional needs. These parents usually worry about their caregiving performance, which may be lead to frustration.

tend to over-involved the child in their own feelings and emotional needs. These parents usually worry about their caregiving performance, which may be lead to frustration. Um, and high expectations can cause conflict with the child. That's not happening. No, not at all, but the secure parenting capable of regulating their emotions. They create compassionate environment for their child and they view their child as a separate person, but they also empathize and with his or her experiences. That sums up your parenting style extremely well. Yeah. Okay. So that makes sense. Yeah. So, you know, I wonder if you can be secure, if you can ebb into like how I said it changes throughout your life. So I transitioned into, I do, I was going to say then I believe I transitioned into securely attached, but that was based on life experience, not childhood, obviously. So yeah, I had Nathan at 26 because I was still anxiously attached when we got married at 23. I was still struggling. I was struggling with trusting that the marriage was going to last. I still thought at any point you could leave. Yep. Um, and I honestly, and I've said this before, so that's why I said till 30, I probably didn't fully trust that you weren't going to leave for the first, till we hit our 10 year mark. I think it took me 10 years of our marriage before I truly in my bones was like, okay, so we're doing this. Yeah. Right. Well, I think you're not leaving. You know, it's funny to say that that's sort of the genesis of our name. Gen X adulting is all of a sudden we're fucking adults. Yeah. Right. So it's like life's happening while you're busy making other plans. And to your point, it's like, right there goes 10 years. It might've been longer. Might've been less.

Yeah. Right. So it's like life's happening while you're busy making other plans. And to your point, it's like, right there goes 10 years. It might've been longer. Might've been less. No, I, I, no, I kind of remember when it happened, you know, I was like, I just, it was around the time my dad died. Um, so, and that it wasn't connected. I just remember around that time is when I'm shortly at probably within a year after that is when I realized, okay, so you aren't going anywhere. Like you're in this type of thing. So, um, and, and not that marriage is easy, not that our marriage has always been easy. We've gone through ups and downs together, but I think it took those 10 years because I was coming from such trauma, such an unstable background, such abandonment issues. Like every boyfriend I had, I didn't have a lot of boyfriends. I had long-term boyfriends. So I had my high school boyfriend, I had my college boyfriend. And so, but I had huge abandonment issues in those relationships. You know, I feel bad for those guys. Even though, you know, I love them very much and we had a lot of fun together, but they also had to deal with my abandonment issues. And so as a teenager and then you did right. And so, um, but what's interesting, so I think as I ebbed into secure attachment as a parent, so I became a securely attached person when I became a mother because that's who my children needed. And I was not going to project my issues onto my children. I was determined not to do that. And I think that's very Gen X. I think that's very Gen X. We're very conscious and self-aware. Try to stop the cycle. Yeah. Try to break that cycle. Yeah. So I think I became securely attached as a parent, but I think it took me longer in our marriage and our relationship for

Try to stop the cycle. Yeah. Try to break that cycle. Yeah. So I think I became securely attached as a parent, but I think it took me longer in our marriage and our relationship for me to transition to a securely attached partner. If that makes sense. I was almost writing two different attachment styles through my twenties and to my early thirties. And then I think they blended into, they, they solidified into secure attachment in my thirties. I don't know if that makes sense. No, it does. And that's where, you know, when I say this is on a spectrum, when I'm reading through some of this stuff and I've, and I've read through it for the couple of days now and we've been going to, we're going to talk about this. I've looked into this and it's been thinking about it. The spectrum is not only over time from when you're a child to when you're say in your teens, your early adulthood, your early midlife thirties, whatever. It changes over time. Yeah. But what's fascinating, and I'm curious if you can relate to this, is it changes too by the relationship. So you're absolutely securely attached to your kids. I would say you're probably securely attached to be at this point. Yes. You're probably securely attached to your mom at this point. But then if you think about other relationships, they fall, I bet some of them fall on different slides here as different parts of the spectrum. Yes. Right. So that's the fascinating thing that I'm finding here is that, because I was thinking going in, I'm an avoidant, but I came from a securely attached environment. So it's got me thinking, okay, when did I get kind of screwed up here? Because I was secure. Now I'm tend to be avoidant. Okay. So, yeah, going into you. I'm not taking it to me quite yet, but

So it's got me thinking, okay, when did I get kind of screwed up here? Because I was secure. Now I'm tend to be avoidant. Okay. So, yeah, going into you. I'm not taking it to me quite yet, but I'm giving you an example to maybe reflect back on, because with our kids, I'm definitely in the secure space. But there's also some avoidant where I don't totally honor all of their emotions and feelings. Right. But at the same time I do, but I'm not as quick to do it as you. So it's fascinating to me that this is a, this is, and this is psychology, right? Yes. That's where this stuff comes from. Psychologists wrote up these different buckets to describe behavior and it's never a perfect science, right? It's a social science and it's not a whack or criticism of psychology. It's you're dealing with the mind and emotions and behaviors. But I give you, I'm going to turn it back to you. I was just kind of giving you that framework that I've been mulling on as far as how you, it applies to different things. It applies to different areas of your life. It applies to different relationships. Yeah. It can apply to, absolutely. I would say that at least coming from someone who was anxiously attached because of childhood, probably the people that were in my childhood, I only am secure. I'm not really attached with the ones that I, um, unpack trauma with. So like my mom and I have gone through a lot of work together. My mom has been incredibly gracious in allowing me to heal my childhood trauma that she was involved in some of it, not intentionally. My mom's entire desire was just to try to give me a normal childhood. All right. Yep. But, um, so she, I know it's pain was painful for her to rehash things and to have to hear things that happened to me

give me a normal childhood. All right. Yep. But, um, so she, I know it's pain was painful for her to rehash things and to have to hear things that happened to me or how I felt about things at the time. Very painful. And especially I'm a mother, I can only imagine, but she gave me that space. She gave me the space to listen to what I needed to unpack so that I could heal as much as it probably hurt her at the time to have to go through it again or to even learn certain things she didn't know happened. But as a result of her giving me that space, I was able to then be completely healed and securely attached to one of the main care. Like the main caregiver of my childhood, not that I wasn't securely attached to her, my childhood, I never doubted my mom's love or commitment, but it was more, I guess more of an authentic secure attachment, an authentic secure attachment, not a secure attachment because, oh my God, I have to hold on to you. You're the only stable thing in my childhood, but just coming from a very positive secure attachment, the secure attachment changed from survival to an authentic positive secure attachment. And as a result, we have a really great relationship. She lives with us. The only way that could happen is if we had gone through, if I was able to go through this where it's an enjoyable living experience, right? Cause there's a lot of, there's a lot of Gen Xers who are now faced with having to care for their elderly parents and they have not impact their trauma from those parents or from their childhood. And some of those parents were either neglectful or abusive, mentally, emotionally, physically, whatever, or unintentionally caused trauma. And these people, these Gen Xers have not

And some of those parents were either neglectful or abusive, mentally, emotionally, physically, whatever, or unintentionally caused trauma. And these people, these Gen Xers have not had a chance to resolve any of that and are now being forced to care for these people and their parents. And so a lot of times it rehashes all this trauma for them, but they can't do anything with it because the parents aren't at the point anymore where it can be resolved. Or the parents wouldn't, won't create that space for them. So that's a tough one because a lot of Gen Xers are going through wanting to resolve past trauma, but at the same time are being forced to care for the, their abusers or the people that unintentionally caused that trauma. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, what I was thinking about for your, even for your own self, you look at my upbringing and your upbringing, and we've talked about that. I was stable, two parents, two and a half dogs, whatever, you know, all that you're all you're moving. You've got your life was quote unquote crazy. I have to all blank this. I was kind of fucked up compared to mine, right? Yeah. But your mom was the one consistent. Yes. And she always provided you with love and always you, you may, you know, you probably doubted some of her decision making and actions she took, but at the end of the day, you knew she loved you. And that's evolved into your adulthood. I do think that's probably why you're able to be a securely attached mom that probably maybe, maybe not. I don't know. Yeah, but it's probably, you know, it's helped you at least do better, right? You want to be better, right? And you're smart enough and you've done enough self introspection to say, I want to be better, but I, I'm,

helped you at least do better, right? You want to be better, right? And you're smart enough and you've done enough self introspection to say, I want to be better, but I, I'm, I don't want to go too far. I want to make my entire, my, I'm not, my kids are not my healing vessel. Right. Right. So, so I think that's good. I, but I think your mom provided a crazy upbringing, but it over time, it became secure, like you described, but also partly because you guys were able to talk through it. She was on the podcast. We had some sensitive topics that were probably, you know, rehashing some old wounds for both of you guys. Um, but what I find interesting about this is, and this is what I mean about the spectrum of fluidity of all of this. Every, with everything I just said, there are still times where she triggers you and you go back to some, one of these other boxes, right? You're leaving that secure box and you're going into the something. Yes. I don't know whether it's disorganized or whatever it might be. Yeah. It's just a, that's why I find this fascinating. This, this topic fascinating. And it doesn't happen a lot and it's completely unintentional on her part. Um, yeah. And when I'm sure when I'm startling for you, when I'm triggered, um, it's completely unintentional on, on, on her part, but it's, yeah, it's, it's almost like you're humming along and then something happens and it brings you right back to that emotion. You were feeling at that time, that chaos, like the gut punch. Yeah. And you're like, now I actually, thankfully in general, I find humor in a lot of that now. I am able to laugh about it, but there are times where I'm like, oh my God, you know, and I have to have my moment, but it's still, it's really my moment.

find humor in a lot of that now. I am able to laugh about it, but there are times where I'm like, oh my God, you know, and I have to have my moment, but it's still, it's really my moment. It doesn't really even have anything to do with her. It's just a, she, her action triggered it. But again, it's just a trigger. It's a trigger, right? But it's really still, it's just bringing, it triggers that unreason and it's resolved. That's the thing, but even resolved crap can still show itself. Oh yeah. And that's what catches you off guard. If you're someone that comes from childhood trauma or abuse and, um, which I guess that's redundant, but all childhood trauma does not mean abuse is present. Um, and you've unpacked and you've resolved and you found closure with whoever you need to find closure with. Um, and then something happens that triggers you and brings you right back. It's startling because you really are functioning as a securely attached person, as a healed person, um, as a high functioning, you know, person you're doing well. And then it brings you back so hard that it reminds you how you stood on no ground and how chaotic you were inside the chaos that was inside of you. And, um, how reactionary you were to things and how much pain you were in. It brings you back like a light switch and that can be startling to your nervous system when you've been living in a healthy way. Um, and you got yourself out of fight or flight and then that trigger triggers you right. You're nervous system right back in and you're like, Oh my God. There's one time when that has happened to me and it's, it's, it's not just like, okay. So we did mention my, my mom, like there was like maybe at different times that's happened, but, um, there's other people

to me and it's, it's, it's not just like, okay. So we did mention my, my mom, like there was like maybe at different times that's happened, but, um, there's other people in my life that also do that. And when that happens, it's like, you're it's, it's, it's a shock to the system and it makes you realize though, the positive of that is it really makes you realize how far you've come and how healed you are. And, um, you're not even that person anymore. And it actually, I always feel bad for that person. I always kind of, I immediately have some empathy and I'm like, wow. That's how that person felt. That part of that person, I was felt like that 24 hours a day, seven days a week with no break and how much pain I was sustaining. It just, but this all happens in like 30 seconds. Yeah. It can all, all that stuff, everything I just said, you could feel it all in 30 seconds. Yeah. Like a flash in the pain. Yeah. It's a shock to the system. So, but, um, to go back to securely touch. So yeah, like with my mom, I'm completely securely attached with you, with the kids. Um, but there's relatives from my childhood that I have, there, there are things not resolved. And so I, I'm definitely not anxiously attached to them. I might be avoidant. I'm not attached to them at all. I'm gonna, uh, I'll open back up my thing here because there's, there's. Got to be an ambivalence. Where does ambivalence fall into this? I see it because it would seem like avoidant. Yeah. It would seem like avoidant. I probably go into avoidant when it comes to certain people in my life. Um, I don't know. I don't know if it's even an attachment style. If it's just, I didn't see it jump up. That's why I'm going back real quick. These are great bullet points. I do.

Um, I don't know. I don't know if it's even an attachment style. If it's just, I didn't see it jump up. That's why I'm going back real quick. These are great bullet points. I do. I don't see a, an ambivalence section here. I feel like avoidant is kind of a synonym to that a little bit. Somewhat. Yeah. I will say this, there are some people still in my life that have at times triggered my anxious attachment. And I'm going to be honest, it's really been until this year where I have made the conscious decision where I really realized, wow, I'm being anxiously attached about this and I made the conscious decision to stop. I'm like, these people don't deserve my anxious attachment. What am I doing? And it's, it's almost like they trigger, um, feelings that people, my childhood triggered in me. And when you're an anxiously attached child, you're constantly trying to get approval from the people in your life that won't give you the approval there. Because that's what's causing the trauma in the childhood, right? So you're just constantly trying to please love me. Please accept me. Please choose me. Please make me a priority. Um, please approve. And so I realized this year, there's some people in my life that have triggered that and I've, I've spent a lot of my life trying to be an anxiously attached, trying to, you know, all those things, please accept me. Please love me. Please, uh, you know, choose me. Please make me a priority. And this year I was like, I don't know, just slap me in the face. Like what? So even if you unpack, even if you have self-awareness and I'm not, you're always, it's always work, you're always a work, especially if you come from a background like mine, you're always working.

self-awareness and I'm not, you're always, it's always work, you're always a work, especially if you come from a background like mine, you're always working. But even if you were, if you really are on top of the world and you're like, you know, I'm, I'm doing great. Like you don't even think about it because you're functioning so well, but there you'll still find those skeletons in your closet. You still have to acknowledge them. I'm still unpacking trauma because I'm, when I say recently, it's probably in the last six months, I was like, Oh my God, I'm anxiously attached about this. Stop that. Yeah. Stop that. Even if I have to go to avoidant about these people. Yeah. What do you, what do you think is, um, that's the level of consciousness that allows you to recognize that, right? Acknowledge, recognize that I've got this unhealthy behavior with this thing. Thing it can be, it can be a, probably a thing, a person, whatever. Right. What do you think what's happened there? Because there's been things done or said that triggered me into feeling exactly the same way I did when I was a child and I finally correlated it. But that's what I mean. How, what, how does you come to that correlation? Would you say, or that understanding is it just, we're getting old and maturing and there's some genetic thing happening with us or. I just kept questioning myself. Why, what is this? Why do you care? And I kept trying to get to the root of it. Why do you care? Cause these people have no, they should have no, this, not this much control over how you're feeling. Why do you care? And then I just, I just thought about it and thought about it. And I finally was like, Oh my God, this is how I always felt with these other people that were in my childhood.

Why do you care? And then I just, I just thought about it and thought about it. And I finally was like, Oh my God, this is how I always felt with these other people that were in my childhood. It's the same thing. And there's the people in my childhood that made me feel this way have very similar characteristics to the people that are currently in my life. They're making me feel this way. Or you could reverse that. The people that are currently in my life that made me feel this way are very, have some very similar characteristics to the people in my childhood that made me feel that way. I recognize the connection. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I just did. I just recognize the connection. There's some maturity thing. Yeah. And then I was like, okay. Now that I see it, once you see it, you're like, Oh, and it takes away all the power. Yeah. Like they don't have power anymore. Yeah. So now I'm like, and it's amazing. Cause then you don't realize how much energy, how much thought and emotion you've been putting into certain people until you finally see reality. And then you get that time and energy back and you're like, Oh my God. Wow. I was, you didn't realize how much you were, you were energy. You were putting into it. Yeah. So yeah, but I would say overall, um, securely attached. I don't think I have any more anxious attachment. I think that was the last of my anxious attachment. And it's probably because again, those people triggered the same stuff that was triggered in my childhood and I didn't, I didn't realize it was going on. And that's, that also is interesting to me is how did I not see that? But I think it was just, again, so busy living my life, raising my children, you know, and finally it got to the point

And that's, that also is interesting to me is how did I not see that? But I think it was just, again, so busy living my life, raising my children, you know, and finally it got to the point where I had to face it and I was like, what is this, what is going on? Cause it was just so unusual. So I was, I led to and have settled into secure attachment, you know, and I could say, I feel like I finally am there even with friends. I'm very choosy about the friends I give my time to. Um, and there's no, it's totally secure attachment. Yeah. There's, I've never been anxiously attached to friends actually, even when I was a kid, I was never a big anxious. It's so weird with boys. I was, but with my, well, no, in middle school, elementary school, middle school, I was anxiously attached about girlfriends. And then in high school is when I was started getting securely attached to my girlfriends in my life and then in college. So middle elementary school, middle school, highly anxiously attached, try and try and try and try and try and try. And then I just, I think I just met the right people, the right girls in my school and, and college, you know, I also had a boyfriend, you know, so, and he got a lot of my energy and time there's, if I could go back, I would be single, single, single, but I was trying to fulfill those abandonment issues. So you can't, yeah, I understand why I had the boyfriend, but, um, I, I, I remember always wondering how my friends could be single and not want to not have a boyfriend and be just fine. It just, it didn't make any sense to me, but that goes back to that abandonment. So anyways, that's where I'm at now, but with you, I find it very interesting because as you said, you came from a very, well, I mean, we

but that goes back to that abandonment. So anyways, that's where I'm at now, but with you, I find it very interesting because as you said, you came from a very, well, I mean, we shouldn't say typical. Um, childhood, cause there's a lot of people who had trauma in typical homes. So just cause you have two parents and you live in what seems like a normal childhood, there's a lot of abuse that goes on in those homes too. It doesn't mean that everything's great, but in your situation, that's not the case. Yeah. Right. So, but yeah, I, I don't want to say like, oh, if you have divorced parents, you automatically have trauma and if you have married parents, you automatically don't. Absolutely not the case. You know, but you started out, I'd say secure attached, right? Yeah. I think I did. And I, I've even thought about it cause I'm not going to go too into it, but you know, as a kid, I was brought to my aunt's house and, and, uh, and left with relatives. I had my, um, spent a lot of time under the care of other relatives. And, but I have no, I was thinking, I'm like, there's gotta be something bad. There's gotta be, right? Everybody has some weird shit and it's like, I didn't really have any bad experiences with any of those people taking care of me and stuff. Right. Right. So I think that you had any though issues with the fact that your parents weren't there because you were having to spend time with these other relatives and your parents weren't able to be there during those years, I'm not saying in your whole childhood during those years where your parents had to give their attention to your sibling. Um, and so as a result, you spent your, a lot of formative years with your different aunts and uncles and cousins, which was all positive.

your parents had to give their attention to your sibling. Um, and so as a result, you spent your, a lot of formative years with your different aunts and uncles and cousins, which was all positive. But if you look at it from the outside, um, do you think that during those formative years that had any effect on your attachment that your parents weren't there during that time or no? I don't think so. And I've, I would love to find the nugget, but I've not been able to find one because I can't think of it because everybody made it okay. Yeah. Everyone made it okay. And, and, you know, which is great. No, it is. It means that there was a strong village there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was all, even in that situation, it was, you were able to still have a healthy environment and have a secure attachment. Yeah. To the, cause it says to the caregivers, it's related. The attachment style is related to the care experiences with the caregivers in your life. It doesn't say parents. So during those years, cause what age would you say we're talking for those years of you? Gosh, I don't even know. It's my earliest memories. Okay. So let's say three, four, like probably like little. Yeah. Yeah. I would assume so. 10, 12, like 10 years of your life. Yeah. Maybe, maybe, maybe I honestly don't know because it's, and I don't think I'm blocking it out per se. I almost had to go back because, you know, going from little kid, then I became, I played sports and that became my focus and it was in school and there was no. Okay. So when you think back on your childhood, your childhood is the spending time with your aunts and uncles and that's a block. And then the next block is sports. No, I don't know if I'd go there. I mean, I'm not, no, no.

your childhood is the spending time with your aunts and uncles and that's a block. And then the next block is sports. No, I don't know if I'd go there. I mean, I'm not, no, no. I mean, we lived in one house and moved to another house. We were a family unit. We'd get in the car, the four of us and go drive to relatives in the next town over or the same town, there were family parties we'd all go to. We'd ride home together in the car. There were, we would make trips to West Virginia. I would spend time there with family. Yeah. So no, no. I mean, that's all a big continuum. Right. So then this part where you're talking about where you spent most of your time with your aunts and uncles, were those experiences you just talked about intermixed with that time? Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, so it was like, there were times when you were only with your aunts and uncles, and then there was normal family time. A hundred percent. Yeah. That's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And to your point, that's the caregiver part of it. Yes. When I was with my nuclear family, the four of us and our dog, right? Everything's fine. When my parents needed to tend to my sister really, and, um, I would be at one of my aunt's house and everything there was fine. Right. Truly was to find something because well, no, it seems uncanny that there are people that are securely attached. Yeah. That did not have trauma in their childhood. Yeah. Um, but what would you say? Like, cause you're a Gen X man, right? And we touched on this briefly in an episode. Um, and it's funny cause we had some Gen X women come in and say they, they were treated the same way. But would you say that your emotional

And we touched on this briefly in an episode. Um, and it's funny cause we had some Gen X women come in and say they, they were treated the same way. But would you say that your emotional maturity in general was, um, given the attention it should have during your formative years so that you would be able to see that your emotional intelligence could grow and evolve to where it should be by the time you were an adult? I would probably say no, but I don't, I think that feels more generational to me. That's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm asking you this not to put the blame on anyone. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not defending anyone. Okay. Okay. I'm just saying generationally as a, as a Gen X guy, would you say that that, that, that part of your personality was, um, what's the right word? Shush. I feel like that's a generational thing. Probably. Yeah. Right. Right. What we talked about this where we couldn't, it wasn't cool to cry per se, but it was fine to be angry or it was fine to probably get in the fight. Oh boys will be boys. They'll fight. Right. Right. So sure. I don't, you know, yeah, I wouldn't say that my generation was, it was not facilitated to, you know, to explore your emotional side, nor your emotional intelligence, if that's what you're asking me. No, I don't think so. So as a result of this generate, not everyone, I'm sure there are many healthy men, Gen X men whose parents were of a different sort and actually like were in touch with their son's emotions and help them understand their emotions and identify their emotions and express their emotions and all that, but in general. And again, this could happen to Gen X women too, but we're talking, I'm talking about Gen X men.

identify their emotions and express their emotions and all that, but in general. And again, this could happen to Gen X women too, but we're talking, I'm talking about Gen X men. Would, would you say that as a result of that, a lot of Gen X men maybe ended up looking to ourselves as opposed, embarrassed girls or thinking, okay, I really was a securely attached person. Truly was. But as I've gone throughout life, I've definitely have levels of mistrust. Mistrust across the broad spectrum of things. I don't trust public institutions. I don't trust groups of people. I don't trust groupthink. I don't trust certain people, right? So I have mistrust. But I think that's all natural and it could be explained. I definitely avoid certain situations. I don't like to get into conflict, but I'm not afraid of it, as you know, right? I'm fine with conflict, depending on what the conflict's for and what it's all about, right? The lady speeding yesterday at me saying, "Slow down, that's conflict." I'm not afraid of that. You get into, you have two, I have two sons and a daughter, right? And boy, I've learned a lot, learned a lot just by having to be their parent, be their dad, right, their caregiver. So they've certainly brought out a more emotional, softer side of me than probably what would have been facilitated naturally as my upbringing, if that makes sense, right? Especially a daughter. But at the same time, having two boys, there's an age difference there. I've definitely was more of a Gen X dad towards our older one than our second one. So I've certainly evolved, right? And that's sort of that spectrum of things. Am I answering your question here? You found, you definitely gave our younger son more grace than our older son. Probably, yeah.

And that's sort of that spectrum of things. Am I answering your question here? You found, you definitely gave our younger son more grace than our older son. Probably, yeah. So you answered it on the broad spectrum of how things in society affect you. And as a parent, how would you say, not how, how would you say though? I gotta avoid this. You're avoiding, how would you say your emotional intelligence development affected your interpersonal relationships like your marriage? What do you mean? So do you think, see, cause we see that there seems to be a lot of conflict between men and women from the feedback we're getting. And a lot of these, the age of the men and women are Gen X. And there's a lot of butting heads. Like they, the women feel like they have been used for labor, used for sex, used for being a mother to these men's children. And the women feel, I mean, the men feel that the women have used them for money and to do things around the house, basically. So neither side feels appreciated, obviously. And I'm wondering how much that ties back to the stunting of the emotional intelligence of Gen X men and Gen X women in certain situations. But I'm gonna speak about Gen X men by their emotional intelligence. You know, no one talks about anxiety. No one talks about social anxiety. No one talked about feeling overwhelmed. You're feeling overwhelmed right now. No one helped Gen X men when they were children identify what they're feeling. And so it could just, it ends up going to anger. Cause if you're feeling anxious, if you're feeling overwhelmed, if you're feeling sad and it's not being dealt with or you're not being guided on how to cope with it, it ends up settling into anger. So then as you become an adult and you get into a

overwhelmed, if you're feeling sad and it's not being dealt with or you're not being guided on how to cope with it, it ends up settling into anger. So then as you become an adult and you get into a relationship with a woman and you might be having, she may be trying to express something like, I need this or could you do this or I'm feeling this way. They're feeling overwhelmed. They don't feel equipped. They're feeling defensive. I'm failing in some way because she's coming to me needing something. I'm obviously not meeting that need. I don't understand exactly what she needs. I'm defensive because I cannot meet this need. I don't think I'm feeling overwhelmed. I have anxiety. It's going to turn to anger, avoid. It's a breakdown in the marriage, right? And that builds resentment. Then the woman doesn't feel heard. She feels pushed aside that her feelings aren't valid. That what she is bringing to him is not being honored or acknowledged and doesn't matter to him, but it doesn't necessarily, that's not necessarily where he's coming from. He's just not equipped and to handle it because nobody taught him how to recognize what emotions he's feeling. So I'm wondering if the stunting of the emotional intelligence of Gen X men, and I'm only speaking about Gen X men because that's my generation. I'm sure Boomer men also have gone through this, but Gen X talks about stuff. So I'm wondering how that's played into the breakdown of relationships and marriages and why you're seeing such vitriol when it comes to right now, how they're talking about each other. And so that brings me back to my point. Did you think that your emotional intelligence was fostered in a productive way to prepare you to being a marriage? I'm going to avoid that direct question

And so that brings me back to my point. Did you think that your emotional intelligence was fostered in a productive way to prepare you to being a marriage? I'm going to avoid that direct question because I think you've just said a ton. You really did say a lot. I'm surprised at the vitriol as well. I'm in the camp of if I'm scrolling and I see something that, you don't have to comment on everything. And you certainly, you can refrain from attacking other people, especially people you don't know. So I'm shocked at the response of women sorting things out for the first time in certain cases and celebrating it. I think that's great. Believe it or not, I'm a huge fan and advocate of women, women's rights and everything. And maybe having a daughter allowed, really pushed me there on an emotional intelligence level. But I'm 100%, I think it's great. I think it's great. Because we've talked a lot about it. The Gen X women are really the ones it feels like that are discovering this. But as we've talked about the generation of women behind us are probably much stronger right off the rip. Yeah. Which is great. I think it's great. It's a human evolutionary thing. I think it's wonderful. The one thing that's interesting to me though, and we've joked about this, but you kind of summed up maybe our lives or marriage. Maybe arguments we've had, right? Definitely hits home and I'm not perfect. But the emotional intelligence, I've said this before in your like whatever, where I say I know everything or I feel everything. I feel everything. And I do believe, I don't know if I feel everything. I certainly don't know everything. But I feel a lot and sure, it's overwhelming I think. And I think I probably am representative of my generation.

know if I feel everything. I certainly don't know everything. But I feel a lot and sure, it's overwhelming I think. And I think I probably am representative of my generation. The world's fucking crazy and we're living within it. And we're trying to provide for our family within it. And we're trying to interact with people we care with and not be assholes. And so it's a lot. And we probably didn't, but who does? How do you get equipped to deal with all of this stuff unless you talk about it, right? But you don't talk about this in our generation. And I think, yeah, maybe I'm making your point, but it blows me away that like, Nathan and his buddies will talk about certain things. My buddies and I, we don't really talk about stuff. You'd be like, "Hey, you okay? I'm good. All right, cool. Let's go get up here." You know, that kind of thing. So maybe I'm making your point and it's probably not that you're making a point, it's a question, it's an observation. No, you didn't answer. Do you think that the emotional intelligence, the lack of acknowledging and honoring and supporting your emotional intelligence growth affected how you approach some things in marriage? Do you think that if things would have been, and again, this is not blaming anyone, this is a generational thing. Do you think that if your emotional intelligence would have been given as much attention as your athletic performance or your academic performance or your expectations as a son, as a brother, as a friend, if your emotional intelligence would have been acknowledged as much as those things, then you would have been more equipped in an interpersonal relationship with a woman? Of course, but that wasn't happening. And it took that to not happen

as much as those things, then you would have been more equipped in an interpersonal relationship with a woman? Of course, but that wasn't happening. And it took that to not happen and the world to evolve for us to be able to do that with our kids. Because I absolutely feel like I do that with my kids. But I also, I have a psych degree. And so I kind of have an affinity to this, I kind of got into that stuff. I'm Freud and Jung and Skinner and Pavlov and all these different behaviorist and stuff like that. So I learned about that out of interest. But then again, that's still an external thing. You can learn about that intellectually and even sometimes maybe apply it to yourself. But when it comes to a relationship, do you think that you've been more avoidant and men in general your age may be more avoidant when it comes to conflict within their interpersonal relationship, their marriage, because they're not equipped to handle it? I don't know if they're, it's a fascinating question. Just to go back and put a bow on that last statement though, the reason I'm able to do it with our kids is because of you as well. And you setting a, you're very good at that. And you've educated me on how to communicate with them and when to not be an asshole probably, right? Or not to push, but to set step back and create space. Listen, maybe they're going through this. So you get a ton of credit for that. I'll give myself some credit for following it, I guess. Yes, yeah. But I think when it comes to, you know, men, it's fascinating because we've talked about this. You fall into roles and the roles get probably deeper and deeper the further you go along without any course correction, right? And so at the end of the day, I think for my generation,

You fall into roles and the roles get probably deeper and deeper the further you go along without any course correction, right? And so at the end of the day, I think for my generation, we just don't feel like dealing with a fucking argument. You know what I mean? So it's like, I don't wanna fight about this. So I'm just gonna go out in the garage and puffs around or whatever. And that's an avoidant, right? It's 100% avoidant, but it's also to maintain peace and harmony. There's a strategy behind avoidance. And it's not the worst thing. Okay, so you just brought up an interesting thing because it is the worst thing. And because it only brings peace. Temporary peace. Temporary peace is not the worst thing. To the man, I'm not gonna say to you, to the man it does. Because I'm here to tell you when a man has that attitude of, I don't wanna have this argument right now. I don't wanna talk about this right now. I'm gonna go out in the garage and a man thinks he's diffusing the situation. All that's happened there, I'm educating men right now. Mark my words. You have lit a match. And she was at level five, but you walking away and saying, you're not talking about it right now. And I'm speaking, wait, I'm speaking to men. I'm not speaking to you. I'm speaking to men. Because I'm not making this like a personal thing, right? Now she's level 10 because she feels invalidated. She feels that the man doesn't care about her feelings, about what she brought to him. She feels undermined and belittled. And the resentment that is the planting the seeds of resentment and every time, it also creates distrust. Because every time a woman comes to a man with something that is hurting her or bothering her, she is trusting him with that

of resentment and every time, it also creates distrust. Because every time a woman comes to a man with something that is hurting her or bothering her, she is trusting him with that vulnerable part of her heart. I'm going to take a chance and share with you what is hurting me or what is bothering me. I trust you enough to bring that to you. And when he's like, I can't talk about that right now. I don't want to get in this argument. We're not doing this. She literally feels like he stepped on her heart, right? Like that he's like, I don't care about you and how you feel. I'm not saying that's how it is. I'm saying that's how she feels. And so you do that enough. The seeds of resentment grow and build a fricking wall. And also she will stop trusting you. She will stop bringing things to you. And then you get divorced. This is how it happens. No, no, it's fascinating because honestly, what you just described to a male of my generation, I will represent as very dramatic. We did not step on your heart. We did not step on your emotions. There's just something going on. And here's where it's problematic. I'll give you this. If that becomes the norm, then that's not okay, right? If this happens 10 times, nine out of 10 times, it's like I'm going to the garage or whatever. That's what I'm saying. 90% of the time is not good. If there's some ratio in between there that, right? It's got to work for everybody, right? These are dynamic situations. It's a relationship. It's two people. Of course. And so it can't be 90% of the time you're like, all right, let's talk and how are you? Tell me everything that's going wrong. Let me make it, you know, let me just listen. Why not? Because it's a lot, it's a lot. Okay, so that though, okay,

let's talk and how are you? Tell me everything that's going wrong. Let me make it, you know, let me just listen. Why not? Because it's a lot, it's a lot. Okay, so that though, okay, but that brings me back to the emotional intelligence of Gen X men because I think it feels like it's a lot because Gen X men were not equipped with how to deal with emotions. And so their first emotion with that is feeling overwhelmed feeling ill-equipped, feeling anxious, and it's a lot. I can't handle this. I think that's, I don't think they're feeling, I don't love you. I don't think they're feeling, I want to hurt you. I think that they are like, I don't know how to do this. I'm going to avoid this and hope that she'll just like settle down and simmer down. And then life will just kind of get back to normal. And we'll just start being normal again. And what they don't realize is that sure, she seems normal, but dude, no, it's damaging. And it's over and over again. And eventually the relationship is damaged beyond repair. Let me ask you a question. Do you think the behavior of Gen X women is similar or comparable to these younger generation of women? Meaning we've talked about emotional capabilities of younger men. It feels like younger women have similarly advanced development of their own emotional control, right? You see where I'm going here. Advanced development of their emotional control. Compared to a Gen X woman. So here's where I'm going. (laughing) What makes you think you girls are not a lot? From a Gen X guy, you're saying it's the Gen X man is ill-equipped to deal with this. Why do we need to be equipped to deal with it? And again, I'm asking for the masses, right? No, I understand. Right, yeah, okay.

saying it's the Gen X man is ill-equipped to deal with this. Why do we need to be equipped to deal with it? And again, I'm asking for the masses, right? No, I understand. Right, yeah, okay. Cause it's not complicated stuff, right? Okay, so when people get, let's say they're getting married. I'm going to bring marriage into this. I know not everyone gets married, but let's say they get married, right? And so back for Gen Xers, no one ever talked about roles. No one ever talked about a man helping on the domestic front. That was not talked about. What was talked about is a woman should go to work. A woman should have children. A woman should raise those children. A woman should cook dinner, do the laundry, clean the house, plan everything, all the doctor's appointments, drive everyone everywhere, basically do everything. The man goes to work. The man takes care of the lawn and all the leaves and the gutters and all that stuff, right? So that is how Gen X was sold. Boys and girls were sold that. You boys were sold that and us girls were sold that, right? Now in there, no one acknowledged emotional intelligence at all, even in the girls. And then the emotional development of both Gen X boys and Gen X girls was not acknowledged on either front, right? So we just were kind of like, all those things Gen X went through, but let's just focus on emotional development. That was not acknowledged really in general, in general. So then we grow up and we marry each other. And in our minds, we have two different ideas of how things are gonna go, right? Us Gen X girls think, of course a woman can do everything because that's what we see on TV. And those are the commercials and the TV shows. And we see our moms and our aunts working, sometimes our grandmas,

course a woman can do everything because that's what we see on TV. And those are the commercials and the TV shows. And we see our moms and our aunts working, sometimes our grandmas, single moms, married moms, everyone seems to be fine. So that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna do it all. And then the men are like, yeah, she's gonna do it all and I'm gonna go to work and take care of things around the house. And no emotional development happened, right? So then as the women are humming along, doing 90% of the domestic load, in addition to working a full-time job and handling, same stuff that men are handling at their job. I'm not saying literally the same, but the same pressures. Why is it different? It's the same shit. So handling the same stuff, 40 hours a week, give or take, whatever. And the second job of the domestic load and the children, a human being can't handle that emotionally and mentally. They get burned out, they become disconnected. They go into fight or flight. They go into autopilot because it's a grind that never ends because you never get a break. Women were not coming home from work, sitting on a couch, turning on the TV and chilling while someone's making dinner in the kitchen. The men were. The children were not going to the men asking for help on this, help on that. The mothers assault. This is how it ended up for us as Gen Xers, right? So then she comes to him and she's like, I'm upset about this or I need this or can we talk about this? And it could be the smallest thing. Like, I can't handle, I need the bathrooms cleaned or I need you to take me out on a date or I need you to help Jimmy with his homework. It could be anything, right? She's asking for help. And she's coming, she's probably been grinding so long

or I need you to take me out on a date or I need you to help Jimmy with his homework. It could be anything, right? She's asking for help. And she's coming, she's probably been grinding so long that by the time she comes to him, she's at her wit's end. So there's a chance it could be coming intently and in an intense way. Like, dude, whatever, I need help. Because his emotional development wasn't acknowledged, he's feeling completely overwhelmed with this reaction. He feels defensive. He feels like she's saying he's doing something wrong. He thinks she's acting crazy. Where's this coming from? Everything's been fine. Where's this coming from? Why all of a sudden are you acting like this? We've all been fine. When really she hasn't been fine. She's been falling apart. And then he's like, I can't deal with this. I'm gonna avoid. I'm going in the garage, I can't deal with this. She feels pushed aside. She feels like he's not gonna help. She feels like she's invalidated and that happens over and over and over again. And eventually she either, the marriage falls apart when the children are young or she hits menopause or she hits midlife and she's like, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. You don't hear me. I've had done this for 30 years or 25 years, whatever. I'm gonna go spend the rest of my life for myself. And then the men are mad. I think though, I think what you just did is you backed into taking it off men's plates as a sole source. And what I mean by that is, as you know, I'm very much an evolutionist in that I think the world continues to evolve and we get better and better. That's the wheel of turns. And the younger generations are doing better emotionally than us, right? So I believe that that's evolution.

and we get better and better. That's the wheel of turns. And the younger generations are doing better emotionally than us, right? So I believe that that's evolution. What you just described is new or was new in that the generations before us, in the US, I don't know elsewhere, I'll just speak for the US, but I feel like at a global, not a global level because we're the richest nation in the world, right? So I'll keep it as a US-based thing. But it was typically the guy would go work, mom would stay home and that's not even accurate too, right? But for certain parts of the story. In general, yes it is, it is. So then all of a sudden, and that's what we grew up with modeled. That was modeled behavior for us. That's what I saw my uncles and aunts and everybody, that's what they did. That's what you saw. Yeah, that's what I saw. I saw the opposite of that. Yes, but my point is, in general, we grew up with the beavers, right? No, no, in general, we grew up as the first children of divorce. Yes, yes. So it depends on where you were, you had both. You had either leave it to beaver life. We were the part of where they melded. Some were leave it to beaver life and some were children of divorce. You're kind of making my point. There was a paradigm shift in our generation. Gen X was the paradigm shift from, generally speaking, there wasn't divorce as much as, there wasn't daycare, right? Gen X is on the forefront of divorce, daycare. You can bring home the bacon and make it too, whatever the hell it is, right? So yeah, we didn't have that model of behavior as men. And now all of a sudden, and you had used the word, I'll go back to you, you said women are humming along, working outside the home, taking care of the kids. They weren't humming,

And now all of a sudden, and you had used the word, I'll go back to you, you said women are humming along, working outside the home, taking care of the kids. They weren't humming, because then you came back to the reality, they were grinding. Grinding. Yes. With slow, when you're grinding as hard as, women would be grinding like that. It's slowly, it's not cool. It eats away at you. It eats away at your soul. Yes. Yes, I get it. So, but there was no preparation for this, for any of us, not men or women. What's finally happened, I think, is, maybe women, they're, they've, I don't know, maybe you can explain it better, but it feels like they've had enough, because they've had enough. And men, we were, we've had model behavior that was different. So you're coming to us now, because you're grinding, you're, it's a lot, right? You need some support. And we're like, what's wrong? Dinner, I'm chilling, I just worked all day, gonna put on the game, you know, that kind of thing. And you're like, oh. Yeah. Yeah, no, so I get it, but it's, I don't think, we've been oversimplifying it, saying that it's men, an emotional lack of maturity, or lack of emotional development. I think you just hit it on the head though, you guys didn't have that emotional preparation either. You were thrown into this media created environment that we all were, right? We all grew up, I grew up in the generation of like, you know, cosmopolitan, playboy, thought we're all marrying models that could do it all, right, we all thought we were marrying that woman. Right, right. So, you know, I think that's more it than, I don't think it's completely picking on men, that they couldn't deal with it. But what I do see, and I don't think this is a bad thing, women your age, your

So, you know, I think that's more it than, I don't think it's completely picking on men, that they couldn't deal with it. But what I do see, and I don't think this is a bad thing, women your age, your generation, Gen X women are saying, fuck this, we've had enough. And men are not, they're not hearing that, they're not getting ahead of that enough to prevent the nuclear option, which is the divorce, is the pure hatred. And we see it, right? We've seen plenty of comments from men that it's like, guys, just keep moving. You don't need to come in and attack these women, it's unnecessary. Well, but I think also their reaction, I think women are saying we've had enough and their reaction is indicative or an example of the whole thing. So I think women were coming to the men in their lives repeatedly saying, please, I need this. Can you hear me about this? I need you to understand this, la, la, la, la, over and over again, push aside, push aside, push aside, avoid, avoid, avoid, the men were avoiding. And so now the women are like, okay, I'm leaving because I can't do this anymore. And then the men now are having a reaction to that because they didn't acknowledge any of these conversations up to this point. And so they're completely taking it personally. That's one thing I've realized is they're taking it as some sort of like, I don't even know if it's personal because that would mean that they're taking accountability. It's almost like they're taking it like the woman is putting herself past her family. That's how it is. They're viewing it as she's putting her needs and her happiness past her family when she's saying, I've just spent the last 30 years giving everything I have to this family and you never heard me when I needed help.

she's putting her needs and her happiness past her family when she's saying, I've just spent the last 30 years giving everything I have to this family and you never heard me when I needed help. And I'll say it again, I'm absolutely pro woman. Good, good for the women to finally put it, their needs above the rest of what was going on because at your age, your kids are probably, not every case, right? But the kids are probably in an okay spot. You've hit this point in your life where you probably are able to spend less, we've talked about this. You're not having to cook for five people right now. Right. Right? Yes, I've been able to let go of some of the things I was doing. Yeah, there's some of the responsibilities. Yeah, yeah, but what's unfortunate though, and I agree with you, good. And I think it's amazing and I love it. I love it, I love it, I love it. But what's sad is that so many times these women that are reclaiming their energy and moving on into the next phase of their life, they're having to leave their marriage behind because their marriage was part of what was destroying them. And that's what's sad. And that's where I go back to the emotional development because I feel like some of it ties back to that. If the emotional development, the emotional maturity, emotional intelligence, whatever you wanna call it, if it had been dealt with and acknowledged for Gen X in general as children, we probably would have been able to communicate with each other better in marriage. And then you may not be having so many midlife divorces right now. And I think you brought this up. The millennials have already evolved in so many ways when it comes to communication. In general, the men, the millennial men are way more in tune with the needs at

And I think you brought this up. The millennials have already evolved in so many ways when it comes to communication. In general, the men, the millennial men are way more in tune with the needs at home, the childcare needs. I don't think as many of them view it as, I'm babysitting my kids, whereas Gen X men, it was more I'm babysitting while she's getting her nails done. And again, I think Gen Z will keep going with that. So it is evolutionary. It's an evolutionary thing. But I think what we're seeing now is there are a lot of divorces happening right now. And I think if you go back and it brings us back to attachment styles, I think that a lot of the Gen X men were avoidant or fearful avoidant. And maybe you have a lot of Gen X women that were anxious attachment. And when you put an anxious attachment and an avoidant together, it's not gonna work because she's the more she's trying, the more she's trying, the more he's pulling away. Yes, we've done that ourselves. You tried to get my attention. I'm like, ugh. Yes. So I'm not, we are not innocent of it. Oh no, no, no. And I'm a huge component of it. There's two of us. Yes. And, you know. No, no, no, we, I mean, I am here to say that, you've definitely been an avoidant attachment or a fearful attachment at parts of our marriage. And I've been anxious attachment in parts of our marriage. And a lot of people think you can't have a successful relationship with an avoidant or a fearful avoidant, that you almost have to give up yourself in order to do that. But I'm here to say that's not true. Well, I think you-- But I am here to say that it's not easy, and it's not easy to be with an anxious attachment either. And that's why it's important that at least within the marriage, as you grow,

Well, I think you-- But I am here to say that it's not easy, and it's not easy to be with an anxious attachment either. And that's why it's important that at least within the marriage, as you grow, your goal should be to become securely attached. I would say 100% agree, but think of it this way, or a way to think about it. You know, I'm a big young yet. And he's very much into the development of the individual and individuation. And marriage isn't easy. Relationships aren't easy, especially something that spans decades, and children, and financial cycles, and jobs, and buying homes, or selling, whatever, right? There's the world's fucking crazy. Yeah. I think in this attachment style conversation, you float in and out of different things. That's what I found most fascinating about it, looking at it, there's four boxes, but there's variations of each. The most important thing I think to do, and the way to prevent divorce is probably, you have to continue to develop as an individual. And you forced me to develop as an individual by holding me accountable. The kids have forced me to develop as an individual by holding me accountable. There's just certain things I can't do that, or say that are innate to me being from Gen X, right? That shit that's probably inappropriate, and they'll call me on it. Or that's just weird, whatever, in my sense of humor. So it's like, you've gotta continue to evolve and catch yourself. Yes. And then I think at the end of the day, you have to do what you can to bring that to the relationship. And the other person has to do the same. So it's not a he or a she thing. What you're describing, I think, what we've tapped into or discovered here, and shouldn't be rocket science here to figure this shit out, but these divorces are

So it's not a he or a she thing. What you're describing, I think, what we've tapped into or discovered here, and shouldn't be rocket science here to figure this shit out, but these divorces are because they've grown apart, or one's individuated, or one's developed individually, and the other hasn't. One's had stunted growth, one hasn't. Yeah, and I think there's resentment. The communication of resentment and all that. Resemmon has a big, big part of it. So no, I think that another thing that I don't think it's talked about enough when it comes to relationships is that if a man can facilitate the woman in his life to be in her feminine more, then there's true balance. And I think the relationship works better. So women do a lot, men do a lot, but women do carry the emotional baggage of the family, and so many other little things that are always in her mind is constant, constant, constant, constant. And so if a man can relieve some of the stress baggage from her and allow her to soften, because the more stress and the more baggage, mental baggage and emotional baggage a woman carries from caring for the family, the more harder she's gonna get because she's so stressed. So try to re-explain that in a way that, because what I heard you, but it almost feels like, I'm not taking it this way, but I could picture someone, especially with some of the juvenile commentary we've seen. It almost sounds like you just said, take the problems off her plate. And I don't think you're 100% saying that, you're saying more share in that, right? I'm saying-- But you mentioned at the beginning that it would help her be more feminine. What does that mean? And let her be in her feminine. So I think with the whole women working too and all that, which by the way, I wanna be clear,

would help her be more feminine. What does that mean? And let her be in her feminine. So I think with the whole women working too and all that, which by the way, I wanna be clear, I'm totally for women being able to work and having financial freedom and all that, and growth and chasing their dreams. So I wanna be very clear. But with them having to take on working outside the home and their other job, because working in the home domestically is a job. I also believe that 100%. Stay-at-home moms are working a job and working moms are working a job. Working moms are working both jobs. So it's almost like, men need to work on creating the space to give the women in their lives an opportunity to be in their feminine. What does that mean? So I'm gonna explain. It can be very simple. She's grinding. She's doing what she wants to do, chasing her dreams, working, raising children, cleaning the house, all those things, right? So she's working hard. Balance it. Open her car door. Open the door at the restaurant. Pull out the chair for her. If she's carrying bags, go get the bags. Unload the car, the groceries. Bring her flowers. And I know it sounds simple, but this is what will help her feel like a woman. And I'm not even talking about as a relationship thing. Let her, it helps her be in her feminine in that moment. And it helps her downshift a bit. It helps her soften. And as a result, those little things that are just for her, as a result, she will be more open to the man in her life, if that makes sense. What's interesting is it makes me think that what you're describing is keep reminding the woman from a man's perspective, why you got together in the first place. Because at some point it wasn't a grind. It was infatuation that led to love, then the rest of its

is keep reminding the woman from a man's perspective, why you got together in the first place. Because at some point it wasn't a grind. It was infatuation that led to love, then the rest of its history type of thing, right? True. But it's also, and this is some people may, this may trigger some people, but it's also being the man in her life. This isn't a competition. A lot of men get competitive with their women partners, which it baffles me. This isn't a competition. And this could be for not just, this could be for homosexuals too. I'm not talking about men and women, I'm talking about roles, right? So the masculine person in a relationship, and I'm gonna speak in a heterosexual way, the man, there's times he just needs to be the man to the woman, because it allows her to not be all the other things. He's creating space for her to just be a woman. And then she can be in her feminine, because it's almost like when she's doing all that stuff, she's in her masculine, if that makes sense. And so it's like, one of the things I think men love about women is their femininity. It's the opposite of men. You love the softness, you love the curves, I'm just speaking physically, but you love the sensitivity, the nurturing tendencies, the ability to make a home look beautiful, ability to listen and relate and be there for you as a friend and watch them, women, raise your children and love on your children and all the different things women do that are magical. So help her hold onto that part of her and not become completely in her masculine. Because so many women, so many women, that's the first thing they have to let go in order to grind as hard as they do. And so the men in their life need to, not need to, but should want to say, "I got you, I got you.

that's the first thing they have to let go in order to grind as hard as they do. And so the men in their life need to, not need to, but should want to say, "I got you, I got you. "I'm gonna get you a drink, I'm gonna order for you." It's the smallest things, take away her decision fatigue. You do it. Take away her decision fatigue or she shouldn't have to, she can carry that bag, but she shouldn't always have to. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, 100%. And as a result, it balances out that male masculine feminine in a woman. And I think then it also creates balance in the relationship. Yeah, I'm thinking too though, could you answer it the same way? Could you provide an answer for what women could do for men to relieve some of whatever? I can't even think, because I understand you, but I don't totally relate. In general, they do. Because they, in general, they're the ones who do the grocery shopping, do the cooking, all that stuff that men don't have to think about, women already do it. But that's not true, because that's not true. There's some men who do it all too. And we've seen it, some of these guys that, some of the commentary you can tell that they don't, they can't identify with certain aspects because maybe they're doing more. Sure, I'm sure there's situations where there's a man that does all the things, and in that situation, I 100% think she should step up and start doing some of that stuff. That's a given. Like I don't understand women who would just sit around the house and not, if they're home, you need to be maintaining that house. That's your job. Like you clean the house, you plan the groceries, you cook the meals, you plan the meals, you take care of the job. If you're staying home long, that's what you're

That's your job. Like you clean the house, you plan the groceries, you cook the meals, you plan the meals, you take care of the job. If you're staying home long, that's what you're doing, that's your job, right? But if you're a working mom, then he needs to also be helping on the state, on the domestic front, and you're working together as partners. But okay, so in that situation, let's say they're both working, and then they're both working well as partners, and then he should also be doing those little things to help keep her in her femininity, but then she should also do those things to help him feel good about himself too, because men have egos-- That's where I'm going, what are, I don't know what those things are. I mean if I had to guess. What, sex or something? I think it's sexual. Its sexual. I think it's sexual. Am I wrong? Um, no I think that, But you can be honest. Yeah that's what I'm trying to think of. Maybe that is the main thing. I think for women it's a bunch of little things, and I think for men it's just kind of one thing. I mean other than you know listening, and whatever they want to talk about, and you know, and in their interest, like we do all that, you know, you want to talk about fishing and it's like, oh, that's interesting. Not that, you know, but you should do that for us. Like you don't really care about certain things, but you're going to listen. Um, but I think, okay. So the way, the way, I'm not going to say the way that sex makes men feels how women feel about all those little things. That's how it makes us feel. Um, I think men, I think men get validation through sex. In addition to pleasure. Um, I think it's the way men feel wanted by their partner. And I think the way women feel wanted sexually to women,

I think men, I think men get validation through sex. In addition to pleasure. Um, I think it's the way men feel wanted by their partner. And I think the way women feel wanted sexually to women, want their partner to be sexually attracted to them. Don't get me wrong. But I think these other ways are another way, like showing, oh, doing all those little things I was talking about a women, a woman also feels, um, that the man in her life wants her and values her with those actions. Right. Does that make sense? All those little things I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, but that doing all those things, when I say habit, then that helps her being her femininity. That leads to usually leads to sex. See a woman needs things like that. And then she's like, see a woman needs things like that in order to want to be intimate with someone. Yeah. And I think that's a disconnect with men and women. Men honestly can just be intimate with someone and there's nothing wrong with that, but they can. Women for them to fully want to be intimate with, I'm talking about their partner. There's not a one night stand. You, there has to be something there. Um, a feeling like that you're cared for, you're valued some tenderness to lead you to that space. I do think there's more than sex though. I'm really pondering it while you've said it and there definitely is more than sex, but you know, it's, it's funny cause as creatures, probably sex is definitely number one, right? For all men. Yes. Um, so that's no shocker, but I do think there's, I'm trying to think of other things like I, for us, I'll make it about us. Okay. Our walks are when we walk in the morning and we're talking and shooting the shit and stuff like that. I think that's good and healthy.

I, for us, I'll make it about us. Okay. Our walks are when we walk in the morning and we're talking and shooting the shit and stuff like that. I think that's good and healthy. Yes. There's gotta be other things though. Oh, well, doing things together. I, I mean travel, people travel together. Yeah. People like to go out to eat together. Um, maybe like how people play pickleball, you know, all those different hobbies, common interest in hobbies. And I think doing those things together does continue to bond the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and we'll as a result make the sex life healthy too. Cause the sex life, but see, here's the other thing when women go into menopause perimenopause affects a women's libido. And so there could be a period where a woman is not as into sex. And she doesn't even know why. Cause, cause for gen X women, we didn't know what was going on. So we're all learning this now, right? So when they hit like 45 or 43 and all of a sudden they're not wanting to have sex as much and they may think, Oh, it's cause I'm tired. It's because we have so much going on, even though there was still stuff going on in your thirties and twenties and you wanted to have sex more, but for some reason, you're just like, Oh, I'm just getting older. Yeah. And then you learn, Oh, it was my hormones. And maybe if people would have talked about it, I could have gone on hormone replacement therapy and my libido would have stayed normal. So then you're playing catch up. A lot of these women are playing catch up, trying to get their libido back. Um, and so that that can affect the relationship. Cause if you were having a regular sex life and then all of a sudden you're not, and then he takes that personally and he

and so that that can affect the relationship. Cause if you were having a regular sex life and then all of a sudden you're not, and then he takes that personally and he doesn't know why, but neither does she. So there's a breakdown there. Honestly, I mean, I feel like we covered some ground here because started off with these attachment styles, but I really think we got into some dynamics around relationships and I feel better for the men because we're not the evil, you know, ogres of emotional development. I think we certainly are, but I do think women are culpable at this as well. Also, you just touched on a huge point. There's biological events happening at the female level at the male level too. Yeah. The female level that you guys didn't talk about it because you were raised by silent generation or boomers or whatever. Yeah. And so it's, it's new to everybody. And again, I go back to the evolutionary tale. We're talking about it. There was no podcast 20 years ago talking about that. Right. So now the people below us, the kids below us can, there's just more information. Well, it's one of the reasons we're doing this, right? And it's one of the reasons I continue to want to talk about some of this stuff because I want there to be resources for millennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, whatever, you know, as long as these podcasts are up, some of this stuff I want it to be talked about. So if somebody goes to search about this, cause they don't know what's going on in their life. There's at least somebody, a couple here talking about it, saying, this is normal. Yeah. Um, yeah. Honestly, there's just so many things, again, that Gen X was ignored about. And so I, but like, we'll talk about it. We're not scared. That's one thing. We're

this is normal. Yeah. Um, yeah. Honestly, there's just so many things, again, that Gen X was ignored about. And so I, but like, we'll talk about it. We're not scared. That's one thing. We're not scared because I know the boomer, the boomer women, it wasn't talked about. And some boomer women are proud of that. They're like, I just got through it. I didn't talk like that's being stoic about it. Or I just worked and took care of my man. And that's, it's like, that's not, I'm sorry, that's not heroic for women. Like women deserve more than that. And women deserve to have a voice. And so, um, but you're right. It's not all on the emotional development of men. I think it was an emotional lack of emotional development on a generation. And then we got married and you said it, we got married. And it was the first time where there was a paradigm shift in that both parents were working and nothing, and then nothing changed in the domestic front. We were really sold such a bag of crap. And, um, it was almost like destined for failure. I mean, and I know there, there was, I know there are, you know, statistically, I don't know this. I don't think you know this, but what is the divorce rate of Gen Xers versus boomers versus whatever, right? I don't know. I'm curious. Yeah. Maybe if we find a graphic, we'll put it up on the screen for you to, um, but I don't know, but I do know there's a lot of midlife, uh, divorce is happening right now. And there's a lot of gray divorces and that's the boomers. There's a lot of gray divorces too. Um, and I think most of them statistically now, like it used to be the men would want to get divorced because they found a younger version, right? They go through their midlife crisis. It seems like now it's the women that are

now, like it used to be the men would want to get divorced because they found a younger version, right? They go through their midlife crisis. It seems like now it's the women that are leaving. So it's very interesting, but that's something to look into more, yeah. You know, but I think that, um, it was destined for failure in some ways, but I think that there were definitely couples that did have good communication that I think there were men that stepped up. There were people that have saved Mary. There were people that had great marriages and the dad helped and things went well. So we're not saying like all Gen X, uh, parents ended up in the all Gen X kids ended up in these nightmare marriages. That's not what we're saying, but we probably had a highest, a higher percentage of different variables than other generations. Because again, it was the shift of the culture of women are leaving the home and working. It's really the first time that's happened on that level. I'm not talking about a war time. I know women did that at war time. And I know there were women who always worked. I'm talking about a cultural shift. The, and the cultural shift was leaving the house to get a job, to continue this concept of an American dream where you would have a car, two cars, dogs, house, be able to eat, right? Have healthcare. And it's now very much a two income society. Oh, well that's the other thing is capitalism. How does that play into it? Um, that to be able to afford to do that, did you need two people? I mean, a lot of people, there's conspiracy theories on this that the government wanted more tax money. So they, they set it up so women would go to work. Um, wanted to break up the home to have more control over the people. You know,

the government wanted more tax money. So they, they set it up so women would go to work. Um, wanted to break up the home to have more control over the people. You know, there's a lot of that that goes into it and you can, you can research that. But, um, do I think, I think women going back to work was such a wonderful thing for women to be able to do as an option. But I think it's really crappy that it ended up where women had to go back to work to afford this lifestyle. I think it should have stayed an option. And I think it should have, I think women it should have also be where women have the potential to make as much as men. So if, if they want the man to stay home, you know, if you're going to do that, then you make sure the men, the women make as much as the men. And then as a couple, they can decide who stays home. There's a lot of things that should have happened here. You should have had women, if they're going to work, you should have been paying them the same as you were paying men so that that couple, I know, but I'm just saying there was a whole bunch of stuff. I'm going to get shit on. I think so. So, but anyways, but as far as attachment styles, um, I do think Gen X men in general, a lot of them are avoidance or fearful avoidance and a lot of the women, a lot of the women though could have been too and anxious attachment. And I feel like my perspective is, but I could be skewed. I feel like my experience a hundred percent, my perspective experience that I'm in, it's not gospel, but I feel like women definitely were more the anxious attachment a hundred percent. And I do think it's partly because of a higher divorce rate. I do think it's because of mom's working as well, right? The whole, the nuclear home shifted

percent. And I do think it's partly because of a higher divorce rate. I do think it's because of mom's working as well, right? The whole, the nuclear home shifted from dad's work. Mom stays home. Mom raises the kids. Now dad's working. Mom's working. Probably a little tension there. And dad's approval of young women is harder to come by. Maybe they're out on sales guys drop jobs and they're gone five days a week. They're traveling a lot. And so there's, there's a lot there. There's a lot there. Also we, um, we're the generation where we were told we have to have a man and we were the, we're the generation that we were told we compete. We were taught to compete with each other for a man. So we had anxiety about that, that you need to get a man and all that, where, you know, the younger generations are really enjoying their single time and honoring that and don't have, not saying they don't have anxiety about finding their person, but it's just, I feel it's different. It seems different. I could be wrong, but we, we came out of college, most of us, I'm not saying all of us, but like we need, you know, finding our person and as, and need to find a man. So, I don't know. I think the attachment styles are interesting. Um, and I'll be curious to see how our kids attachment styles are. Um, because if it's rooted in your experiences with your caregivers, and then did we mess them up in some way? Well, you know, it's interesting. I never thought about it, but I I'd be willing to bet each one will have a different style. Probably. And it's just because they're unique creatures. Well, yeah, but it also goes back to your experiences with your caregiver. And yet you have to remember, like they each had different quote unquote childhoods

they're unique creatures. Well, yeah, but it also goes back to your experiences with your caregiver. And yet you have to remember, like they each had different quote unquote childhoods because of what age they were. So different things were going on in our lives at different times. So they moved and we moved. So there was different, and that could create different attachment styles. So I'll be curious to see, hopefully they're all fine and okay. And we'll be good. Be the first to know. I do think that Gen X works so hard that I think a lot of their are Gen Z kids are, are going to be overall be fine when it comes to their attachment styles. But I don't know. I don't know. Cause I know there's a lot of anxiety in that generation. So I don't know. I have a question totally different. Um, what do you think the fate of our generation is here with all of this, with, with all of this, um, the divorce, the great, I don't know if we're a great divorce, I like, I'm great. Um, but women reaching this point claiming their energy, moving on, not being dependent, the men kind of overreacting in some way. And I don't know if overreacting overreacting is the right word. That's not the right word, but you know what I'm going. It's the dynamic. They're kind of being taken off guard. There's this shift. What do you think? Um, well, I definitely think there's Gen Xers that are going to stay married and go into God willing. They're, they're old age together. Um, speaking about us in particular, but we know other people that are married and are happy and all that. The ones where the woman has, um, started her new, that's our dog started her new life. I think you're going to have, um, a bunch of golden girls. I think you're going to have a lot of

that. The ones where the woman has, um, started her new, that's our dog started her new life. I think you're going to have, um, a bunch of golden girls. I think you're going to have a lot of women that live together or live in communities together and travel together and enjoy their lives together and support each other. And I think for some women, it'll be the first time, and it'll be the most glorious time of their life. And, um, they say there's a lonely man epidemic, a loneliness epidemic. Yeah, that's a trend. So, um, I think I, I don't know what's going to happen with Gen X men, um, who've gone through divorce. Uh, we may have a lot of older guys that sugar daddies. I don't know. I don't, I think maybe just alone. I think, you know, unless you make a lot of money nowadays, you're not a sugar daddy. You have to make a lot of money now to be that. So there definitely will be Gen X sugar daddies, but, um, I think the women are going to be fine. And I don't know if the men are going to be, they may be, they may be just fine. I don't know, but I think the women are going to be fine. And, and they may, um, I think the women will meet other companions if they choose, but I don't see them in general getting married again. You know, it's a fascinating thing as I sit here and listen to your answer as men, you have to be, you have to do it all. I think there's been a shift. Men have to do it all now in some respects in that, in the, the, the, the thing that comes to mind is just, you've got to be masculine yet you need to be sensitive. And that's a fine line. That's more not programmed for that per se. Our generation is that the men, the men in our generation isn't, but the millennial men. So that brings up a good point.

And that's a fine line. That's more not programmed for that per se. Our generation is that the men, the men in our generation isn't, but the millennial men. So that brings up a good point. There were some comments under, um, where men were saying about showing their emotions. Why show your emotions when a woman can use them against you? Yeah, that's amazing. And I don't understand that. Can you explain from a man's perspective where some of those men are coming from that they feel that if they're vulnerable and show their emotions to a woman, she's going to use it as a weapon against them. Oh man. I don't know. I, I don't know. Um, I wish I had a little more time to think about it, even though I have thought about it. I think it's sort of, maybe by showing your emotions were programmed. That's a weakness unless it's anger and rage, then we're strong. Right. But if we have to show your emotions and cry or empathize, I don't, we should all be empathetic to everything. So it's more as maybe that next level down of, of empathy or, or a vulnerability of I'm afraid of something or I'm afraid of this, or I'm afraid of that, or maybe it's professing your love. So I don't know. Right. What are the, what is that vulnerability there they're talking about? Um, but there, I could certainly see, you know, a woman who might be like, Oh, you're so weak. You, you get upset watching this or when this, you know, whatever. I could see a woman doing that if for whatever reason, people in general can be crazy and wacky, right? So it feels like that would be more on the fringe. But for seeing that a lot of men had said that, that means that there's a lot of women out there doing that, or maybe their moms did that to them. But what's an example? Do

But for seeing that a lot of men had said that, that means that there's a lot of women out there doing that, or maybe their moms did that to them. But what's an example? Do you think, what are these, what are they talking about? Maybe in the heat of an argument, the woman throws it in their face about a time that they, that's the only thing I can think of showed vulnerability, but what level of what's type or level or instance of vulnerability? Would you be able to throw back on someone? I don't know. I mean, other than crying, but I, I, when I say when men sharing emotions, I'm not thinking about crying. I'm more thinking about being open, being vulnerable, sharing, you know, like you also, there you go. When I think of it, my five, represent my generation to me, it's more crying. So they may think crying. Maybe they're just thinking crying. Yeah. Yeah. So, and then some of the men said that, um, there that it's their job as men to, you don't, when you're in a situation, you don't experience your emotions. And if you need to, you experience them alone, you go to a place and experience them alone, but it's your job to manage them. And that showing emotion in a situation is a detriment to, um, trying to resolve whatever's going on, that, that emotions, um, are a weakness and we'll get in the way of fixing a problem. So, and I think that's probably accurate. If you were sitting on a park bench crying and a man was sitting on the park bench crying, which is more acceptable, which would be more common, which would be more like less out of the norm. Right. So the society in general is not set up to let men cry. I'm not saying we need to, I don't, right? And if you do your week, um, but it's not set up for that. It's not

less out of the norm. Right. So the society in general is not set up to let men cry. I'm not saying we need to, I don't, right? And if you do your week, um, but it's not set up for that. It's not facilitated to that degree. That's not our cultural norm. Yeah. It's, you know, it's true. But then I think that Gen X men look down on millennial men and Gen Z men, because they feel like the ones that are more empathetic and more in touch with their emotions, because we did get comments about, um, we were the last real men were the last generation of real men and the men after us are weak. I honestly can relate to that and identify with that at a certain degree, whether that's right or wrong. I cannot relate to younger men who are as emotional or sensitive as they are. And that's a problem for me, right? That's my problem. Right. So I don't hold that against them. I don't view it as my own flaw, but it is what it is. But you know what we've talked about how millennial men and I think Gen Z men wound up being like this are much better communicators in general and their relationships and help on the domestic front more than Gen X men did and more in tune with the women, what the women need. And so I think it takes being in tune with that sensitive part of your personality to be able to be a full partner for the woman in your life. It's my evolutionary thinking, right? Men evolve, women evolve, society evolves and you know, you kind of hope it's all for the better. But here's the thing. Even those millennial women, I think women in general, in general, um, I think women in general are attracted to high masculinity, but want sensitivity along with it. So I think the ideal man for a woman for in general is the guy who's a man very

in general, um, I think women in general are attracted to high masculinity, but want sensitivity along with it. So I think the ideal man for a woman for in general is the guy who's a man very masculine, kind of, you know, rough around the edges, all that takes, gets shit done, takes care of everything. But then she wants him to be sensitive and empathetic on the domestic front where she needs him. And that is, that is what can be challenging for men. Yes. Well, you just summed up some of the commentary that men are feeling that women want it all. What else can I do now? She, you know, this and that, that's what's happening. Right. Right. But I don't know. Are they talking about, I feel like they're talking about literally what they want us to keep doing more. I don't, I'm talking more, um, just, I don't know, emotionally or, um, what they're bringing to the table characteristically, I guess, if that makes sense. What do you mean? Like be a man, but also still be able to be sensitive. Yeah. That's what you want from me. Can you be a little more sensitive? You asshole, you know, that may be the timeless problem. Timeless tension. Yeah. Yeah. It's that, but I mean, I think there's so much, we, everything we've talked about is valid, but I think, but I think men want women to participate, hold their own, do things around the house, if possible, bring some money. And if not, if they're fine with them being home, taking care of everything on the home front, but also be feminine and be sexual. It's almost, I was, you know, it's almost like be Mary Poppins in public and a hooker in the bedroom. That's the man's dream, right? And then a woman wants like a mass masculine man who can fight if needs to protect it. She wants to protect her,

public and a hooker in the bedroom. That's the man's dream, right? And then a woman wants like a mass masculine man who can fight if needs to protect it. She wants to protect her, but she also wants someone who's going to do the dishes, cook dinner once in a while, give the kids a bath and not complain about it and not act like he's doing her a favor. That's the thing is when a man does stuff like that, it's a favor, but when a woman does it, it's viewed as her duty. I think you're just summing up a dysfunctional relationship though, or at least a phase in a dysfunctional relationship, right? It where the man thinks that he's doing her a favor. I think that's a generational thing. You think so? I mean, would you say there was a time in our early marriage when if you did something, like let's say if you, I don't know if you ever did this, but let's say if you would have given one of the kids a bath. Of course I did. Or did something you would have thought you were helping me out and be, really think about it. No, I'm trying to think about that. Or like, let's say you went grocery shopping that you were helping me out. I think the most tangible thing would be like doing the dishes. Okay. I would definitely was a, I feel like I was definitely actively involved with the kids of that. And that maybe not so much baths. I'd take a bath with them type of thing, you know, but not a nut. When they were very, very little to be clear, very little babies, babies. Um, but now I'm not a wash the dishes type of guy. I'm not a clean up the kitchen type of guy. No, no. Yeah. Okay. I'm talking about though, in our early marriage, I'm talking about now when we were in the trenches, if you would have done the three or post kids, we have the kids,

No, no. Yeah. Okay. I'm talking about though, in our early marriage, I'm talking about now when we were in the trenches, if you would have done the three or post kids, we have the kids, everything's going on. Let's say you do the dishes. Yeah. Honestly, don't you think you kind of would have viewed it as you're helping me out? Uh, you know, I'll throw you one. Sure. I don't know if I, I don't remember doing the dishes, but you didn't. Yeah. But like, but you never mowed the lawn. You never shoveled the driveway. We've talked about that in our episodes. And for anyone who doesn't know, I was a stay at home mom. I did have a couple of jobs part time briefly, but we decided that before we got married on the rolls. And, um, we are Gen X and we went way traditional and then things have shifted. I'd say in the last five years, for sure. You know, and midlife, cause cause as I went through menopause and went through different things and then us just our kids getting older and, um, more time in the home, like more time between us and stuff, things I wanted some change and I, to give you credit, you listened to me, you heard me and you continue to try to do things to be understanding and supportive. Um, especially when it comes to like health stuff and menopause, like you, and if I'm having this, if I'm like, uh, you know, I'm feeling emotional, like you have not belittled me, you've been there. And so, and that's what it takes. It just takes evolving with your partner. I think it takes evolving. I'm not perfect, but I, you know, and I don't even try to be perfect. You know that. Oh, I know. I know. At least try. I try something. You do, you do. And you, yeah. And, but you, that's, if that's one piece of advice to the men,

and I don't even try to be perfect. You know that. Oh, I know. I know. At least try. I try something. You do, you do. And you, yeah. And, but you, that's, if that's one piece of advice to the men, just evolve with her as she's going through this huge phase, just, just be patient and, and, and try to be supportive. But I think too, to your credit, you started researching this shit a while ago. Yes. And you were trying to get yourself prepared. Yeah. So you've done various things to be proactive. I try to be proactive. And so my advice to women is take care of your own business too. Right. Oh, absolutely. You can't put your head in the sand, but a lot of women don't know. And to be honest with you, this started for me. I, I've traced it back around 42. So I didn't really start doing anything for a good eight to nine years. Cause I didn't know it was happening. My forties were rough. Oh, you're saying you think you hit menopause. I was in perimenopause at 42. Yes. And that's a whole nother thing. Cause I was going through thyroid disease and perimenopause. I didn't know I had perimenopause. I thought everything that was going on with me was just thyroid disease. I was also going through perimenopause. So I got more educated in the last like few years, but no, I didn't know what was happening. And that's, I want to do an episode on that. That whole journey of, you know, but no women perimenopause can hit at age 35 for any women listening that are younger, research, research perimenopause, because you may start having symptoms and you may think what's happening to me and it's perimenopause. And I could have done different things, taken different supplements, maybe done HRT. I could have done different things in my forties that would have made my

and it's perimenopause. And I could have done different things, taken different supplements, maybe done HRT. I could have done different things in my forties that would have made my life so much easier if I would have known. So yeah, but now that I know, yeah, we have communication, but we had rough times during that. Oh, it's going to say so. I'm literally a saint. I made it through that. No, no, no, no, no. I'm a saint. You had your own stuff, dude. We won't get into that in this episode. We've talked enough about ourselves, but anyway, so that's, that's attachment cells. I mean, a brief synopsis of it. Yeah. And then we brought it into ourselves and all that, like our own attachment styles. But I encourage anyone, if you're interested in this to research it more, because it is fascinating. There are quizzes you can take to figure out what your attachment style is. And also if you're a parent, you can kind of, as they, your children grow and become adults, you can maybe recognize what their attachment style is. I think too, one thing you said that I think is interesting is, and this is probably a way to apply this if interested is if you're feeling weird about a relationship, maybe ask yourself why go to one of these little charts. It's fascinating stuff. Like you said, you were anxiously attached to certain people and you're like, what the hell is going on here? Yeah. You want to definitely move on from that type of thing. Oh, for sure. I think as you get involved with someone for a relationship, if you know your attachment style to begin with, and then as you get to know them and you can figure out their attachment style, I think that can only help your relationship or it can help you figure out, this isn't going to work. But I think for

and then as you get to know them and you can figure out their attachment style, I think that can only help your relationship or it can help you figure out, this isn't going to work. But I think for sure, the more knowledge, the better. Self-awareness is key. 100%. So, so that's that conversation. Hopefully you enjoyed it. We kind of went all over the place, but we stayed within a little bit of a realm here of relationships and attachment styles. Yeah. And I would, I would say take it easy on each other out there. Yes. Right. Give each other, give each other some grace. You know, when, when, I'm not talking about though, abusive situations. I always say that not, not unless it's an abusive situation. So yeah, but so hopefully everyone enjoyed this discussion and we will probably be putting up some graphics, I know, and maybe even some links in the description of that can take you to some further research about attachment styles. And we'll see. Google it, Google attachment styles and there's a whole world out there. Oh yeah. And we'll see you next time. Bye.