# Episode 54 - GenX Speaks Series: Denise Conde - The Valor of Generation X

- Podcast: GenX Adulting Podcast
- Published: 2025-12-16T23:00:00.000Z
- Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2398379/episodes/18367255-episode-54-genx-speaks-series-denise-conde-the-valor-of-generation-x.mp3
- Page: https://genxadultingpodcast.com/transcripts/podcasts/genx-adulting-podcast/episodes/episode-54
- Source: https://genxadultingpodcast.com/episodes/genxadultingpodcastepisode54.html
- People: Denise Conde (guest), Brian Barker (host), Nicole Barker (host)
- Topics: GenX Speaks

## Summary

In Episode 54 of the GenX Speaks Series, Denise Conde discusses her experiences growing up as a member of Generation X, detailing her challenging childhood marked by family dysfunction and abuse. She reflects on her journey to adulthood, her career as a teacher, and the importance of breaking generational trauma while raising her own children.

## Key takeaways

- Denise Conde was born in Buffalo, New York, in 1972 and identifies strongly with Generation X.
- She experienced a tumultuous childhood characterized by parental abuse and mental health issues.
- Denise's experiences inspired her to write about her life and the valor of her generation.
- She emphasizes the importance of recognizing and breaking the cycle of trauma for future generations.
- Denise advocates for the use of sign language in teaching nonverbal autistic children to enhance communication.
- Her journey through education has been shaped by her personal experiences and her desire to provide a better life for her children.
- Denise believes that the increase in autism diagnoses is linked to various factors, including vaccinations.

## FAQ

### What motivated Denise Conde to write her book?

Denise was inspired to write about her life experiences and the valor of Generation X, aiming to break the cycle of trauma for future generations.

### How did Denise's childhood affect her parenting style?

Denise's difficult childhood motivated her to create a loving and supportive environment for her children, contrasting her own upbringing.

### What is Denise's perspective on the rise of autism diagnoses?

Denise believes that the increase in autism diagnoses is linked to various factors, including vaccinations, and emphasizes the need for better support and communication strategies for affected children.

### What is Denise's professional background?

Denise is a special education teacher with experience in working with children with autism and has a passion for advocating for their needs.

### How does Denise view the importance of sign language in education?

Denise advocates for teaching sign language to nonverbal autistic children as a means to enhance communication and understanding.


## Referenced links

- [Watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XjOSIOc0ls)
- [Listen on Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-54-genx-speaks-series-denise-conde-the-valor/id1764838823?i=1000741598277)
- [Listen on Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3bpnvOhxHb0ao49zUvkQTn)
- [Listen on Buzzsprout](https://www.buzzsprout.com/2398379/episodes/18367255-episode-54-genx-speaks-series-denise-conde-the-valor-of-generation-x)

## Transcript

[Music]
Welcome to Gen X
Adulting and
today we have
Denise Conde, the
author of The
Valor of
Generation X with
us.
Welcome, Denise.
Thank you. Thank
you for
having me.
We're so thrilled
to have you. Our
first question is
always what year
were you born?
1972.
Okay, so
you are Gen X.
100%.
Nice. Nice. And
where were
you born?
I was born in
Buffalo,
New York.
Nice. And we have
a lot of Buffalo
fans as
listeners, so
they'll love to
hear that. Were
your parents from
Buffalo?
My father was, my
mother was not.
My mom was from
Florida. She was
a Navy, Navy
brat, so to
speak. She's
traveled all
over, but they,
they traveled
back this way
where my father's
family was from.
Okay, so were
your grand, your
paternal
grandparents from
Buffalo?
No. Well, yes,
they were. But
their parents
were from like
Germany and
across Europe.
Okay, so your
grandparents were
for second
generation or
first generation?
First generation.
First generation.
And then your dad
is second
generation?
Correct.
And in Buffalo,
your grandparents
settled in
Buffalo?
Yes.
So you were
really from
Buffalo?
Really from
Buffalo. I'm
actually from a
little small
suburb called
Lackawanna.
That's where I
was born.
And then when I
was 18 months
old, my father
was in the
military and he
got a job in
Youngstown in the
village that I
currently live
in, in my
hometown, as to
work on a
hovercraft, which
was to travel
from Youngstown
across Lake
Ontario to
Toronto and back
and forth.
And so he was a
mechanic on that
because he did a
lot of work on
hovercrafts and
things of that
nature in
Vietnam.
And so it was the
perfect fit for
him. And so when
we moved, so then
he moved our
family to
Youngstown, New
York, which is
where I
currently reside.
So what branch of the
military was he?
Navy.
Okay. So, okay.
So he's from
Buffalo. He grew
up in Buffalo.
And then he
didn't go to
college. He went
into the Navy
after
high school?
Correct. And he
was stationed in
San Diego. And so
that's where he
met my mother. My
mother was living
in San Diego. My
grandfather was
on my mom's side,
was in the Navy,
and that's where
they met.
Okay. So your dad
was in the Navy.
Your mom, as you
said, was a Navy
brat. So her dad
was in the Navy.
Do you know how
they met in
San Diego?
They met. I don't
know exactly how
they met. I think
it was on the
beach. Oh, cool.
Oh, wait a
second. I do
know. So my
father and a
bunch of his
buddies had a
place on
the beach.
In some little
small town, I
can't remember
the name of it
right now, but
right near San
Diego, in the
Navy base and
everything there,
and they were
always having a
lot of parties on
the beach.
And my mother and
her girlfriends,
my mom was 16 in
high school. My
father was 19.
And they met. My
mother got
pregnant. She was
16 when she got
pregnant.
And their parents
made them get
married. My
father left for
Vietnam during my
mother's
pregnancy. She
turned 17 with my
oldest sister.
And my father
went off to
Vietnam for a
year and came
back when my
sister was born.
So she was a year
old before he was
the first time
that he saw her
when she was a
year old.
So were they
married? So they
got married
before he left.
And then when he
came back, was
she still
in San Diego?
She was. Yes. And
then he got
stationed in New
Jersey. And so
they moved with
my sister from
San Diego to New
Jersey. And then
my father wanted
out of the Navy
and he wanted to
be closer
to family.
And then they
came back to
Buffalo. And then
when they were
here, he was
looking for jobs
and so on and so
forth. And then
he had, you know,
my sister was
already born.
There's I have a
middle sister.
And so then by
the time I was
born, like he had
jobs. And I mean,
back then, like,
you know,
everybody was
getting laid off.
They were getting
hired. Then they
were getting laid
off. I mean, like
everybody was
struggling
financially. So
this seemed like
the dream job for my father.
And so that's
when my family
moved here to
where I am now.
But like
literally a year
and a half, I
think they were
here. And the
hovercraft like
something
horrific
happened.
And the bit like
they never were
able to repair
it. And it went
like out of
business and he
was stuck
driving. But he
loved it here so
much for like
where we were
living and the
neighborhood and
the schools and
everything for
the kit for us.
And so they
didn't want to go
back to Buffalo.
And so they my
father ended up
like working in
Buffalo. And then
he had enough of
that because he
continually just got laid off.
It was like the
way that things
were like
Bethlehem Steel
was a big deal
here. Ford plant.
And he was a
mechanic. He was
mechanically
inclined.
So he did a ton
of work in
construction. And
then he just
ended up opening
his own
construction
company. And he
stayed local to
this area in
Niagara County.
Just because I'm
sure Brian knows,
but I don't. When
you're saying
hovercraft, what
do you, is it
like a ship?
It's like a boat
on like pontoons
kind of like are
blown up like
around the boat.
And it's got the
fan on the back
to push it.
Okay. Okay. All
right. Kind of
like kind of what
I was picturing.
Yeah. Okay. So
kind of like we
have airboats
down here. So
that kind of fan,
right? That would
be pushing the
airboats.
Yeah. But you
have to picture
like an inflated
base with then,
you know, like an
inflated bottom,
like a big tire
tube almost.
And so, but that
wasn't through
the milk, the
Navy, right? That
was a private
company.
And so something
happened where
there was a hole
in it and people
were able to get
rescued off of it
that were
traveling back
and forth. It was
kind of like a
fairy, but it was
a hovercraft.
But that wasn't
his job. So it
was like a fairy.
It was kind of
the concept of a
fairy that would
transfer people
from your area
into Canada,
right? Correct.
Yes, exactly.
Was he was the
one of the
mechanics to take
care of that
hovercraft?
Correct. Okay.
Okay. And so when
it, when it sunk,
then that job was
done. Correct.
Okay. And then he
went through and
then he settled
and he started
his own
construction
company.
That's probably big news back
then. Yeah,
right. The
hovercraft sunk
and we're out of
business. Yeah.
Well, I mean, I
was like two. So
you're older
sisters born in San Diego.
Your middle
sister, I assume
is born in New
Jersey. No, she
was born here.
Okay. So they got
a pair of.
Same as me where
her and I are
only 18 months
apart. Okay. And
then you were
born. So are
there three of
you? Yes. Okay.
And so, and then
you guys, was
your mama stay at
home mom?
She was until I
was about, I
don't know, 10,
8, 9, 10. And she
started working
for Niagara
Mohawk, which now
is National Grid,
which is the
power company in
this area. And so
she worked
for them.
So, yeah. So then
after that, after
my mom went to
work, like, you
know, it was
youth gone wild.
Like we all, like
it was on. We
were all just
doing our
own things.
When your mom
went back to
work, when you
were like around
10, your older
sisters would
have been what,
11 and then 13,
if I'm doing the
math. Yeah. Yeah.
So if I was 10,
my oldest sister,
she is six years
older than me. So
she was 16. She's
16. And then my
other sister's
just a year, you
know, depending
on the month.
So did you, and
you're the one
that you're close
in age with, did
you guys go to
daycare? Was your
older sister in
charge of taking
care of you guys?
Well, my mom was
home when we were
little, little,
little, and then
we went and then
we start, no, we
never went to
daycare.
You'd been like,
that's what I
mean. When your
mom went to work
and she was 10,
did you become a
latchkey?
No, like I didn't
go to afterschool
programs or I,
but yeah,
latchkey, like, I
mean, I let
myself in and
back and forth.
Yeah. Yeah. Of
course. I also,
you know, it's
funny because my,
my sibling is
closest to me and
age. Her and I,
she's deaf. So
she went to St.
Mary's school for
the deaf in
Buffalo. So like
there, there was
that huge age gap
between myself
and my, my older
sister. And then I was like, oh, I'm not going to do that.
And then the
sister that I was
closest in age
to, because she
was deaf, she,
she traveled to
go to school. So,
and she was
allowed to sleep
there in Buffalo
during the week.
And even when
they, she became
a certain age,
like she rarely
came home on the
weekends or her
friends were over
would come
because most of
her friends were
in Buffalo or
like the outlying
areas of Buffalo.
So there was a
lot of time where
it was, it was
just me. Like I
come home and my,
my sister at 18,
she went into the
military. So as I
aged and my other
sister was at
school in
Buffalo. So I
literally was
letting myself in
and out and of
the house.
It was funny
because I would
often miss the
bus because I
would have to get
myself up dressed
and you know, fed
and get on the
bus and I missed
the bus. And
there was a lot.
And there was
like a
neighboring mom
that like I
played soccer
with her
daughters.
And she was like
the only mom in
the area that was
home. And so I
went during the
day or in the
morning, like all
parents were
gone, right? So I
would call her.
And so she kind
of her and I kind
of kept it a
secret because,
you know, she
didn't want me to
get in trouble
for, for, for
missing the bus.
So she was like a
secondary mom to
me. And it was,
it was really
funny too.
That is amazing.
So did your mom
ever find out?
Yeah, they
eventually found
out, but I was
older. I think I
was like 12 by
that time. And my
parents were
like, what? You
know, what were
you doing? Were
they upset or
were they happy
that she had
helped you or
were they more
upset with you?
I think they were
pretty
embarrassed, to
be honest. I
think they were
upset. They were
not happy about
it, which, you
know, my, my dad
was oftentimes
home asleep. And
I, I'd have to
get myself up and
whatever. And it
was like, so to
tell him, I would
have gotten my
ass kicked. Like,
you know what I
mean? So, so I
had to find
somebody else
that was going in
another safe
adult that was
going to hook me
up and get me.
You missed the
bus and it was
better to go down
the road to the
neighbor than to
stick around and
tell your dad, I
need a ride to
school or
whatever.
Yeah. So I mean,
I was, I left
alone a lot
because of the,
like, yes, I had
siblings, but
because they each
difference, my
sister being
deaf, I was, I
was 100% like a
ski kid. I mean,
my, my diet when
I came home from
school was
pickles and
freezy pops.
Yeah, that sounds
about right. That
sounds about
right. And your
sister was almost
like in a
boarding
situation where
she was sleeping
in. So you said
your dad was
asleep. So did
his, was his
hours where he
was still at
home. Like you
said he was
asleep and you
were getting out
for school. So he
wasn't up and
heading out to
work at
that same time.
Well, he worked
for himself and
he also like, um,
so he could make
his own hours and
he, as a Vietnam
veteran, I mean,
he had a lot of
mental health
issues. So, you
know, you didn't
know what you
were going to get
if you interacted
with him.
Uh, you know,
when you were
supposed to be
getting yourself
on the bus at
eight, nine, 10
years old, which
is ridiculous,
right? All in
itself. But, um,
you know, it, so
yeah, I mean, he
would be home. My
father had this
like thing where
he would just, he
wouldn't leave
the house.
Like you
wouldn't, and you
were like scared
to come home. You
know what I mean?
Like you didn't
know what you
were going to
get. It was very
explosive. Um,
he'd be very kind
and loving, but,
um, you know, it
was, it was a
difficult.
I had a difficult
childhood.
There's no
question about
it. Um, you know,
which I also
write about, um,
a bunch in my
book, um, about
my dad. Um, I
loved my dad. Um,
but he did have a
lot of mental
health issues.
So, so you were
walking on
eggshells
probably for most
of your
childhood. Oh,
absolutely. I
mean, I lived in
a very explosive
home. Like my
parents were
constantly
fighting and you
know, I don't
mean this like
screaming and
yelling. I mean,
like shipping
thrown across the
house, like
banging, yelling,
you know, I would
be sitting down
and I would be
woken up when I
was little girl
down. And I hit up like a, like,
where we lived
our house. Um, it
was like
considered the
basement, but it
wasn't, it was
like a third
story. It was the
basement, but it
had windows and
like a door and a
walkout to it.
And, um, and then
the second like
main street
level. And then
there was a third
story. So my
sister and I, our
bedrooms, the
sister and I,
that where I was
closest and age
to, we were in
the basement
level of the
home. And so, you
know, shit would
all of a sudden,
shit would break
loose and, uh, you know,
and it was like,
oh my God, what
is going on? And
she's deaf. So
she couldn't hear
any of that. So I
would wake her up
because I'm
younger and I'm
scared. And I'm
telling her like,
what's going on?
And, um, and
signing to her. I
learned sign
language in the
dark. I learned
sign language. We
learned to
communicate like
hand over hand,
like signing so
that we could
communicate what
was going on in
our home when we
were young.
Oh, wow. Not
even, I can't
sign, but you're
touching her
hands doing this.
The concept of
Helen Keller, how
Helen Keller
learned. Yeah.
Yeah. So, so like
during the day,
like the ABC, D E
F. And so we
would, um, like,
I knew that part
of it. And so
then when we were
like, in like, it
all hell broke
loose and I would
wake her up.
Um, she would, we
would communicate
in the dark. So I
would be signing
to her letters
and I was like,
we would feel
each other's
hands. We would
go like that.
Okay. I got it.
Then like
spelling
the next word.
And you would
think of be
fingerspelling on
each other's
hands, basically.
Correct. Wow.
That is, that is
such a unique,
traumatic
experience. Right.
It's, I think
about that. Like,
holy shit. Yeah.
It's experiencing
trauma in
silence, but
while you're
communicating
with each other.
Well, right. I'm
hearing it. She's
not, I'm
communicating to
her what's going
on. And, um, you
know, and a lot
of times my
oldest sister,
um, when she
lived at home
would be involved
in it. Um,
whether it was,
you know, she had
come home late
or, you know, there was an argument that she was, you know,
there was an
argument between
my parents that
she got in
between. So
there, there was
me and my, um,
my, my closer
sister that was
to age, my
deaf sister.
We, um, her and I
were, um, be
listening to all
hellbreak loops.
So it was, it was
really difficult.
So then my oldest
sister left, she
ran away. She was
like her senior
year. She
graduated from
high school.
She was like, I'm
out of here. She
moved in with
close family
friends. And then
the two of them,
her and her best
friend joined the
military, which
was like, my
father didn't
want her
to do that.
And, um, she was
like, whatever,
fuck you. Like
I'm doing
whatever I want
with my life. And
so then my
sister, then
closest and age
with as we were
aging, she then
was more
involved. Like,
you know, when
you start joining
sports and
everything,
you're
after school.
Once she became
like 12 around
that age, 12, 13,
she was staying
at school like
consistently. So
then I was home
by myself the
majority of that
time until she
graduated from
high school. And
then she went to
Gallaudet
University in
Washington, DC.
So is that a
school for
the deaf?
Mm hmm. It's a
deaf
university in DC.
Okay. So do you
feel in a weird
way you can
relate to being
an only child in
the way, like you
had some liens,
but do you feel
that you probably
also had a lot of
only child
experiences
growing up?
I do. And I, you
know, I talk
about this, this
part in my book
about, you know,
families and
getting different
versions of our
parents as kids,
you know,
especially when
you're talking
with your
siblings about
your, your
experiences
growing up from
your childhood.
And, you know,
it's like, well,
you're a spoiled
brat. You know,
my sister, my
oldest sister
would say to me
and I'm like, I,
you know, like, I
didn't choose
this, like, I
didn't choose
where, you know,
to be in this
order of birth.
And, you know,
because I did get
better versions
of my parents. In
some ways, they
were very
supportive when
it came to
sports, my
friendships,
boyfriends were
like, that was
not the case for
my oldest sister.
Like, I mean,
anybody that my
sister brought
home, whether it
was a friend or a
boyfriend, they
were
fucking losers.
Like, that's what
my father would
say to her, where
my parents opened
the doors more to
my, they learned,
right? They
learned from
their experience.
And you have that
one child that's,
excuse me, off
and running.
She's gone. She's
in the military.
She doesn't have
anything to do
with you.
And you have
another child at
home, and you
have the one
that's up in
Buffalo all the
time. So they
were split in a
lot of
different ways.
When it came to
me and my closest
sibling, because
we were both very
active in sports.
We ran track, we
played soccer,
both of us. She
didn't really
play soccer
like I did.
But I mean, my
father traveled
with me all over
the place with
soccer. Like my
sister, my oldest
sister didn't get
that experience.
So I was close to
my dad, but at
the same time, he
was very
controlling. He
was extremely
violent. I mean,
if I screwed up,
like, I got it.
Like, you know, I
got hit by the
belt. Like, I
can't even tell
you the tape.
So was that his
form of physical
punishment? Was
it always the
belt or were
there slaps
across the face
and that
type of stuff?
Yeah, yeah. Slaps
across the face.
And I mean, you
know, like I
would I was like
constantly
running for my
parents.
And but at the
same time, like,
and I think it's
such a
generational
thing, too, for
many Gen Xers,
like the parents
never really
looked at
themselves in
what was causing
their kid to
never want to
come home or to
stay out all
night and
pass curfew.
Well, it's
because I was
scared to death
to come home late
or, you know, for
any reason, get
the shit kicked
out of you.
And so, you know,
and then be
grounded for
weeks on end. I
mean, I think my
longest grounding
was like 10
weeks, literally.
And and at that
time, like my
sister, my my I
think I was like
in my sophomore
year of
high school.
So my oldest
sister was gone.
She was in the
military. I think
she might have
even been married
by then.
And my the
sibling that's
closest to me was
like
never around.
And the worst
thing that a
parent could
possibly do to a
Gen X kid is to
take away their
music. Right.
He literally came
into my because I
would be grounded
in like whatever
I and especially
because we snuck
in and out of the
house and I had
my own door.
I had my own door
where I would
come and go
anyway. So they
would go to bed
and I would just
like walk out the
door and I had to
climb over this
fence to get out
of the yard
because it was
like a
lower level.
But I did. You
know, so I was
just living my
life normally
until my father
realized where to
really hurt me,
which was to take
away all
of my music.
And that was
torture. Like, I
mean, I literally
went to school,
came home and
went to my
bedroom.
Like the idea was
to just study.
And it was, you
know, I
had gotten.
I was like
failing like
everything I had
like C's and D's
and F's and maybe
one B in gym.
You know, understandable
considering what
was going on in
the home, because
not only were you
experiencing
physical abuse,
but I'm assuming
you were
experiencing
severe emotional
abuse as well
from your father.
I mean, it's
almost God, what
a weird because
my dad wasn't in
my life
consistently, but
I would think so.
And to me, I had
an absent father.
But in a way, the
situation you
were in is you
had a father that
was there, but an
absent father,
like he didn't
give you anything
you needed as a
as a young girl
that a girl needs
from her father.
So he's there.
The shell of him
is there. You're
just getting all
the abuse from
him and not the
things you should
be getting from
your father.
So there has. So
it almost makes
me wonder for
children in that
situation, do
they still
experience an
abandonment
complex because
100 percent you
have the parent
there because I
had severe
abandonment
issues severe.
Well, because I
didn't have a
father, right.
But you did. But
you still didn't.
So there has been
an imminent
issues
there, right?
Oh, of course. Of
course. I mean,
you know, it's
funny. And of
course, all Gen
X, we all joke
about our our
issues, right?
Because it just
makes it easier
to deal with, I
guess, the
sarcasm and
humor. And, you
know, I was
saying to my
husband, I
couldn't
find him.
I we were at a
social gathering.
I couldn't find
him for like, I
don't know, 10
minutes. And all
of a sudden I was
like in this this
like, oh, my God,
where is he?
And I found him
and I'm like,
God, there goes
my abandonment
issue showing up.
I like, you know,
it's like like,
did you
leave me here?
No, of course
not. Like, you
know how we can
get so far in our
lives and and
really
acknowledge every
issue we had.
We can get deep
and get the
loaded layers and
and heal and and
do right by our
kids and all
that. But there's
always that one
those demons are
there that always
that one thing
that can bring us
right back for
that moment.
But what's so
great is you
recognized it.
You're like,
yeah, you knew
right. You know,
you're like, oh,
there it is.
You know, there
it is. There is.
There's me
freaking out for
no reason. Like,
are you serious?
And he's like,
get a grip.
So wait. So that
was your
situation with
your dad. Did
your mom counter
it with warmth
and support and
everything you
would need
from a mother?
No, my mother was
I mean, remember
how young
my mom was.
My mom was a kid
herself when when
as far as I'm
concerned, I
mean, you know,
I'm not defending
her actions by
any means.
But I mean, when
you look at you,
look at how young
my parents
actually were,
too. Not excusing
not any of that.
But my mom just
kind of mirrored
it. I mean, my
mother was by the
time I was 16,
you know, 17, 18,
I had a car and I
was leaving and
doing
whatever I wanted.
You know, when I
come home and I
get the shit
kicked out of me,
my mother would
tell me I
deserved it. So,
you know, and I
mean, it thinks
it just like
escalated and got
worse and worse.
Like, as I aged,
you know, I was
it was to the
point where I
would just like
go out drinking
with my friends
and I want to
come home for a
week because I
knew that if I
went home, what
would happen?
I wouldn't be
protected. I
would get the
shit kicked out
of me. And none
of my siblings
were home at that
point. I
was by myself.
They no longer
lived with my
parents. So it
was just me for a
long time at, you
know, into my 20s
and trying to go
to college.
You know, I knew
that I always
wanted to be a
teacher, but I
also was always
running, always
running for
safety, always
trying to find
safety, always,
always drinking,
always partying,
coping with the
fact that I don't
really truly have
anywhere
safe to live.
And so I how old
was I? I think I
was I failed out
of college.
My. So I went to
a community
college in the
area for the
first year and I
was living at
home and the the
abuse just
continued. It was
worse. And, you
know, and I would
fight back.
But, you know, I
think it was not
until I was like
20, 21, 22 years
old, because I
would leave like
I would go stay
with friends and
then I
would come back.
I would leave. I
would come in.
You know what I
mean? Like that
domestic abuse
kind of thing
where you would
it takes how many
times before a
woman would
actually leave
the situation
constantly coming
back because I
didn't have what
I wanted was a
stable place
where I could
thrive in.
So I could go to
college on a
consistent basis.
And so I had the
opportunity to go
to a community
college up in the
Adirondacks here
in New York.
And I took it and
I went and I had
a fairly
successful year.
I think I'm
skipping around
here, though. So
I went to
community college
and I got into a
state college,
Buffalo State
College here in
Buffalo.
My first semester
there living
alone, I on my
own, I should
say, I failed
out. I partied. I
like stopped
going to classes.
Of course, I
self-sabotage. I
didn't know how
to live on my own
successfully. And
yeah, tanked.
And then my
father wanted to
know like my
grades and
whatever and my
boyfriend at the
time and I made
up a fake
report card.
And when
computers just
like came out,
you know, and
like the printers
with like the
little thing that
you had to peel
off on the side.
We generated a
fake report card.
Then he happened
to know somebody
in one of the
offices, like the
enrollment office
or
something like that.
And he was able
to get my grades.
Oh, my gosh. So I
have a question
going back a
little bit.
You had
mentioned, you
know, you would
leave for like a
week, then come
back. And then,
you know, and how
women, it takes
multiple tries to
leave a
situation.
Right. And I have
a question that
goes back to my
college days. I
volunteered in a
center for, you
know, think
technically is
better and abused
women and their
children.
It's like a
counselor for the
kids. And I never
could rationalize
or come to grips
with why they
would come back.
And they told me
this is going to
happen. So, you
know, women are
going to they're
going to show up
and then they're
going to go back
to their
situation.
And it's going to
repeat itself and
they're going to
come back. And I
could never I
never got it. And
I never knew
anyone to ask.
And you might be
the first. Why is
that? What's the
dynamic there
that that has has
women going back
to the I just I
just think it's
kind of like a
stock homie kind
of thing.
You know what I
mean? Where you
just hope and
pray that things
are going to be
better, that
things are going
to somehow be
different, that
the that, you
know, your
parents or, you
know, for that
situation, the
spouse is going
to make the
changes.
And, you know,
it's a complete
trauma bond.
You know, you
don't you don't
realize, I mean,
at the back then,
too, like, well,
I had no idea why
I was continuing
to go back.
I just wanted
things to be
different. But
now, in
hindsight, it's
like, well, it's
just glaring
that, you know, I
just wanted to be
loved
unconditionally.
And I didn't want
somebody kick the
shit out of me,
but like I
always, you know,
and I didn't have
the means, you
know, I just feel
like you're
always better.
I know I did. I
felt like I was
better when,
like, as far as
like going out
and drinking and
partying and
having a regular
routine and
structure, I felt
like I was that
my parents kind
of helped
me with that.
Although the
second that,
like, there was a
conflict or there
was an issue,
there was a
problem, then
I'll help broke
loose in it
became very
heightened and
violent.
I honestly can't
remember a time
ever having a
conversation with
either one of my
parents without
it getting
completely
violent.
So, you know, I
hope that answers
your question.
It does. And I
think I have a
theory on it,
too, though, like
I've a psych
degree. So I
don't practice it
by any means, but
enough to be
dangerous.
And there's that
concept of
intermittent
learning is the
most powerful
learning. And if
you do
repetition,
repetition, you
create memory.
But if you do
something and
then you don't do
it for a while,
then you come
back and you do
it, that's that
intermittent
piece.
I just wonder,
because you had
mentioned your
sister viewed you
as being spoiled
and you had
mentioned that
you're you and
your dad.
It sounds like
you spent some
time on the
sports front
with, you know,
he was there
watching games or
practices,
whatever.
So you've got
little nuggets of
peace and love,
acceptance,
probably. And
then and then all
hell
breaks loose.
I wouldn't do
what he wanted me
to do. Right.
Yeah. Yeah. It's
powerful.
And I, you know,
it took me the
dynamics in
my family.
I really didn't
it wasn't able to
come to terms
with them until I
was forty seven,
forty four for
around
there, you know.
And at that
point, like, you
know, here here I
am now, I have my
own children.
I'm in my second
marriage. I have
a blended family.
And it's just
crazy that
because I had
gone no contact
from my family
multiple times,
from the time I
was in my
early 20s.
And then once
again, like once
I started having
my daughters,
when they were
very young, I
went no contact.
And then again, I
and so it's like
this keep going
back. Right.
Like you keep
going back into
this
dysfunctional
family in hopes
that people are
going to mature,
that people are
going to change,
that people are
going to make
right by you.
And and I also
the thing is that
I think that
women in
situations like
like these, they
don't realize how
horribly
traumatized
they are.
And and until
they start
talking about or
somebody actually
starts pointing
it out like and
how it's
affecting your
body, your
nervous system,
your brain, the,
you know, the
severity of it.
I mean,
especially like,
you know, back
when we're
talking when I
was 18 years old,
I mean, we were
all so young and
nobody was going
to get mental
health treatments
or anything
like that.
You were just
told you're
fucking crazy.
Get over it. Like
you put up with
this shit. This
is the way your
parents are like
they're
good people.
What's wrong with
you? You know, my
father and mother
both were very
involved in the
community that I
currently
live in.
My dad was a
soccer coach.
Like my mom was
like on the board
of the soccer,
the soccer
tournament things
and whatever.
I mean, they were
they were very
involved
publicly. So to,
you know, be able
to tell people,
you know, that
this is what's
going on behind
closed doors.
Only my closest
dearest friends
knew it and they
knew it because
they'd have to
pick me up when I
left the house.
And, you know,
thankfully I had
my girlfriends
look very
close to me.
And so I was able
to walk to their
houses and I walk
in, you know,
crying, you know,
upset after being
thrown up against
the wall and up
by my neck.
My necklace is
broken and I'm
like disheveled
and I'm a mess
and I'm walking
and bawling and,
you know, and
they're.
But even the
parents during
that time, like
my best friend's
parents were in
domestic abuse
situations
because kids
don't they're
they attract.
You know,
vibrationally,
you attract and
trauma bond to
kids that are
going through the
exact same thing
as you are.
Yeah. Yeah. And
so that's why
it's so hard to
to get out of it
because it's so
normalized.
You everybody's
going through it
while everybody's
going through
everybody's dad
kicks the shit
out of them.
Their mom's quiet
and the mom says
or the mom kicks
the shit out of
you to and or the
mom says that you
deserve it.
This is this is
what's going on
in all of the
homes of all of
the girls that I
was very
close with.
And my dad was
also an alcoholic
until I was he
quit drinking, I
think around the
age of eight.
But he still had
a lot of violent
tendencies like
the drinking went
away, but the
violence didn't
end that.
So does that make
sense how I said
that? It does.
I was just I was
just thinking
that the thing
about as far as
like women going
back to abusive
situations, they
leave and
then go back.
Sometimes if
you're in an
abusive situation
and for you, this
is from basically
birth and your
entire childhood.
So it's all you
knew, right? It's
the foundation as
chaotic and
traumatic
as it was.
It was the
foundation of
your entire
existence. And
sometimes
something
different than
that can feel
more traumatic
than the comfort.
You know, this
monster, this
monster you're
familiar with.
You know what to
expect. You know
the rules. You
know what hoops
you have to jump
through and you
know what the
final result will
be when you break
the rules.
But it's known
that you don't
know. And that
might be more
healthy and that
might get you out
of this
situation.
But it's such a
huge unknown and
it's so opposite
of what you know
that it's scarier
sometimes to
follow that
healthy path than
to just say where you are.
So just to go off
of what you're
saying is build
off of that.
Let's talk about
the nervous
system and
cortisol
cortisol levels.
So I'm raised and
raised in this
environment
through my
entire life.
Right. So where
do you think my
cortisol levels
were all
the time.
And so you took
me out of that
situation and my
cortisol levels
started to drop.
And all of a
sudden my nervous
system is going
what the fuck.
This isn't where
I'm used
to living.
I don't know how
to survive like
this. So guess
what I'm
going to do.
I'm going to
create some chaos
in your life for
you because I
need to feel
comfortable.
I need to feel up
here because
that's the way
your your your
body is wired.
Like everything
your nervous
system is wired
for it and you're
addicted to the
cortisol levels.
Your body your
own body is and
you're killing
yourself. You
don't even
realize that.
But I think
that's another
reason from the
nervous system
standpoint.
When you talk
about women in
situations like
this that
continue to go
back to because
in some weird way
the body actually
craves it.
And which is out
of your control.
You know, I mean,
to a certain
extent, to a
certain extent.
You know what I
mean? Like you
it's
physiological.
It's so
physiological.
Yeah. It's it's
how an answer and
subconscious so
much as in deep
in the
subconscious.
And that all
works together.
And I mean, my
God, you are
hardwired.
I mean, your
entire system.
It's not even
like you were you
married into an
abusive situation
in your 20s.
But before that,
things were fine.
This is your
entire existence
and
essence. Right.
Yes. Yes. So it's
it's only been
six years since
I've been no
contact from my
my mother and my
sisters.
And so I'm 53
now. And so I was
47 when I went no
contact.
And and I mean,
there was this
huge event with
my mother that
like was
orchestrated.
So now my mother
starts. We get we
go to track all
the way
forward. Right.
Until just how
was I when my
father passed
away when
I was 42.
Wait, I'm 53.
It's two
thousand. Yeah.
If I was 43
because it's been
10 years. So he
he passes away.
And I mean, it's
like there's the
yin to the yang
of the
relationship
because my father
was more of a
peacekeeper.
Then I realized
when it came to
my mother, which
was really
bizarre. Right.
Because and she
was constantly
triangulating me and my mother.
And she was always
triangulating me
and my sisters
against
each other.
And talking about
us behind our
backs, she'd come
to my house.
She talked shit
about my sisters
and vice versa.
And she she was
always the hero
in the situations
between
all of us.
And she'd always
tell us how
fucked up my
sisters are and
how fucked I am
to my sisters.
And so there was
that that like
underlying
pattern that was
constantly there
that even
in my 30s,
I was my first
daughter. And I
mean, I brought
to my sister's
attention because
there was this
constant
enmeshment.
There was this
thing like if
there was an
issue within the
family between
two people, it
was everyone.
It was all five
of us. And my
father always
would call and
say, you know,
your sister, you
shouldn't have
said that.
And blah, blah,
blah, blah. And
our parents were
always involved
in my
relationships
with my sisters.
And I mean, I
learned at a very
young age that I
couldn't rely on
my sisters
because they
would betray me.
They would tell
my parents
anything that I
said, anything
that I did about,
you know, and I
would do
the same.
So there was this
constant. Was
that always like
from the start
when you were
young, like like
when you were
signing in the
dark to
your sister,
even then you
didn't have full
trust in her. I
didn't with her.
Her and I were
very, very close
all the
way up to.
I mean, we were
always close. She
was always she
was very
protective of me
because I was
younger than her
and I have her
because of her
disability.
So we always
were. We were
very close. But
that broke when
my father passed
away because my
mother, her
triangulation
took over like.
I mean, she was
just tell tell
lies and say
things that were
completely untrue
or exaggerations
about me.
So from the time
of childhood, you
and that sister
were tight and
you could trust
her. And she's
got you.
Yeah. Take the
older sister out
of this. So you
were like that
until you were
43. Your dad
passes away and
your mom's
narcissism, I
think, is what
we're talking about here.
A hundred
percent. You're
not saying
something. Yeah,
I know you gently
were like, I
think that was
sweet of you, but
I know it comes
in to
fuck shit up.
Oh, big time that
she broke that
that relationship
between you and
your sister.
I don't know if
she broke it.
Yeah, I would say
at the end she
broke it because
she was lying so
horribly about me
about the things
that I was doing
things in
relation to my
own daughters.
She she just she
painted this
picture like I
was this raving
lunatic
alcoholic. And
and yeah, I had
issues with
alcohol.
There's no
question about
it. And my cat
might count like,
I mean, hello. We
did a whole
episode, Brian, I
on it of our own.
We had, you know,
I think it was
one of our coping
mechanisms and it
doesn't mean we
were all raging
alcoholics, but
we might have all
had a couple
glasses of wine
or a martini each
night for quite a
while because of
all the shit.
So a lot of us
were functioning
or are
functioning
alcoholics
because of what
we've gone
through. Correct.
So, you know, and
it's funny
because I went
into I went
specifically into
counseling with a
drug and alcohol
counselor because
she was making
all these
accusations.
She was like,
you're an
alcoholic, you're
abusive to your
children, you're
false
allegations. And
she called CPS on
me. And this was
like when I
started calling
her out.
I started calling
her out and
asking for better
treatment. I like
because she would
come to my house
whenever she
wanted. She was
like flirting
with my husband.
It was really
bizarre. Some of
like to think
like he was
trimming our
house. He does
custom
woodworking. He's
very talented.
And so he was
like
trimming our house.
We had remodeled
and she like
walked by it and
she like did this
thing where she
ran her hand down
and she was like,
oh my God, oh my
God, it's just so
beautiful. And
she like turns
and looks at him
and I'm like, no,
like what is happening here?
Am I seeing what
I think I'm
seeing? And so
then when I so
then she was like
his best friend
and so she
inflated his ego.
You know what I
mean? Like she
made him feel
like he was the
most special
person in the
room while
belittling me.
And so I had
these
conversations
with her. I went
to talk to her
one on one at her
house and brought
up the situation
and said, you
know, I'm feeling
like you only
take Michael side
during
conversations
that you're only
saying these
certain things
that you're
treating
me this way.
And she sat back
and she crossed
her arms and she
looked at me and
she said, you're
jealous of the
relationship I
have with
Michael.
Insane. I mean,
but this is like
narcissism
101, right?
Oh, 100%. So then
I start saying
things I have
seen for better
treatment. Okay,
fine. Okay, fine.
I can do that. So
then she, she
starts texting
before she comes
over like two
seconds before, you know what I mean?
But she's just
sucking all the
room out of the
all the air out
of the room and
saying little
things to me
telling, you
know, I've at
this point in my
career, I've been
a special ed
teacher for 20
years and she
starts telling my
daughters that
were complaining
about teachers
the way that
they're teaching,
you know, kids
all kid, they all complain.
They all
complain, which
is perfectly
normal. And then
she's so she
starts telling my
kids what the
best way to for a
teacher to teach
is. And she does
these little
things, you know,
where she's just
like planting
these little
things to wait to
see how I react
or
respond to her.
Well, meanwhile,
of course, she's
over and there's
about a line over
here and glug
glug glug glug
glug glug glug,
waiting, looking
for the time
waiting for this
visit to end. So
I understand how
I look like an
alcoholic to her.
Right, right. But
you're just
coping. I'm
coping. Yes, she
was jealous. She
was in
competition with
you and your
sisters right
from the start. I
mean, we're talking.
We're talking
probably when a
mother is a
narcissist to
that degree,
their biggest
enemy is usually
their daughter.
And so it's one
of the reasons it
makes sense. She
didn't defend you
when your father
was abusing you
because she she
she they don't
have empathy for
their daughters.
They have no
empathy. And I
know it's hard
for people to
understand that
don't know people
like this. But
when you've known
people like this,
it's it's almost
sociopathic, I
call it because
they really don't
have empathy and
unconditional
love in any form
for their
children, but
especially their
daughters, their
daughters are
competition. And
then they play
the little games
of pitting their
daughters, their
sisters against
each other.
And they want to
be the hero. It's
all a game,
right? Because
narcissists get
off on that hit
of reaction. They
want that
reaction. The
best thing you
can do to a
narcissist is no
reaction.
It's not 100
percent. 100
percent. So
that's why I
started gray
rocking. Right.
At that point,
I'm gray rocking.
I wasn't even
conscious I was
gray rocking.
Well, you know,
the bottle of
Riesling Relax
wine is going
down and I'm
waiting for her
to leave. And
then she hovers.
She hovers like
she literally
would go by my
house after she
would leave. Like
we would move to
the back of the
house and go have
a fire. The kids
would be off, you
know, at a
football game or
whatever.
But we would move
out to the fire
until it was
pickup time. You
know, they got a
ride home from
somebody else.
And it got so bad
that she then
that that was the
straw when.
So there was that
that one
conversation I
had with her. And
then there was
like another
blowout. We had
gone to New York
City for to watch
the Macy's Day
parade with our
kids, with my
husband's side of
the family.
And during that
time while I was
gone, my mother
starts telling my
sister, my oldest
sister, the
golden child, all
these horrible
things about me
that I'm an
alcoholic. I'm
abusing my
daughters.
I had one
incident with my
daughter, which
still to this
day, I still
grieve, which is
was trauma
reenactment. I
was grabbed
by my throat.
I can't even tell
you how many
times when I was
growing up and I
had a falling. I
had an explosive
issue, you know,
problem with my
daughter
and my oldest.
And I went after
her and grabbed
her by a throat.
Now this had this
had now,
remember, I'm
divorced. So I
have my ex answer
to my husband has
his ex answer to.
So there's
there's a lot of
adults involved
in raising our
kids. And when
this situation
went down, having
to having the
shame around it,
having to resolve
with my daughter
had nothing to do
with my mother.
It had to do with
my ex, my
daughter, the
kids that were
were there, which
none of them
other none of the
other kids were
home during that.
But of course,
they heard about it.
So it was it was
our immediate
family. And so
she now two years
had passed after
that incident.
And I still and I
still feel so
incredibly guilty
and shameful for
that incident.
I know why it
happened. Right.
But that doesn't
make it any
better for my
daughter.
Right. Right.
But so she now
two years have
gone by after
that incident.
And and I opened
up to her
vulnerably being
a mother to
mother like you
beat the shit out
of me like how
many times.
And so I'm coming
to you full of
shame and how to
get through this
and how to work
through this with
my own daughter.
And she uses it
against me two
years later.
So it tells me
that nobody's
nobody's there
helping out my
daughters. She
would come in.
She would come
over when I
wasn't there and
watch my girls or
whatever and like
destroy me in
front of my
daughter's like
there's cobwebs
over here.
There's this and
I mean, I don't I
don't live in an
unclean. I left.
I lived in a
beautiful house
that we were
remodeling in a
very fluent area.
And we were we
had three girls.
We were
outnumbered
running to all
the sports, three
different sports
events. You know
how it gets the
craziness
of life.
No, my house was
not perfect. But
it was like and
so she would
point these
things out like
we would be we
would have
breakfast in the
morning and go
running out the
door and she
would point these
things out.
Well, I would
never have left
these dishes in a
sink like this
when your mother
was a little
girl. And I'm
like they would
tell me so they
started telling
me the things
that she was
saying
behind my back.
So she was
started to groom
my daughters
against me and
daughters were
were telling you
what she was
saying. Right. So
wasn't was it
totally not work.
Was it not
working because
they were coming
to you with the
information.
Right.
They did not
start. They did
not open up to me
until I received
a CPS call. Oh,
my reported
against me. And
so we had because
I'm a mandated
reporter.
I'm a teacher.
I'm a mandated
reporter. And so
what does a
mandated reporter
mean? You see
something. You
have to say
something. OK.
OK. Legally
legally. You and
I don't have to.
OK. You guys
don't have to.
You're done.
So and so now I
have CPS in my
life. Which is
special. Right.
You as a man.
It's a huge deal.
And so I'm
freaking out. And
so I'm talking to
the CPS worker
over the phone
who tells me what
was reported,
which was my
mother said that
I was drinking. I
had that it got
worse that I was
abusing my child
and it had
gotten worse.
This was the
thing that echoed
in my ears. The
last thing that
why I knew it was
her was because
she said for the
last four years
it had been four
years at that
point that my
father had died.
And I was like,
oh, so then I
said, well, how
do we go about
this? They said,
well, well, you
have two options.
We can open up
the case and
investigate and
find it
either that.
And in fact, the
allegations are
correct or not.
Or we could put
you we could have
a counselor come.
And I said, well,
let's let's go
the counseling route.
I was already
like on my way
into counseling
at that point
anyways. And and
I thought it
would be healthy
for my daughters
and my husband
for all of us as
a family unit.
And so by the end
of it, I mean,
they were like,
yeah, if you get
any more false
allegations, you
just let us know.
This is how you
you go through
it, the process
and so on and so
forth. But I
mean, she looked
at allegations.
They know.
Oh, 100 percent.
OK, it's almost a
double. What you
did was a double
hit. And for lack
of a better word,
it was there's an
investigation,
but it's being
done by the
counselor who's
embedded inside
the family.
Exactly. What's
going on?
Exactly. Somebody
there taking
notes and
whatever. Yeah,
that makes sense.
Investigation. So
you were cleared.
Of course. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So I
mean, but that's
when during the
counseling
sessions is when
it all came out
about what she
was doing, what
she was saying.
The girls started
opening up more
and more and more
about what was
going on behind
my back that I
didn't know and
how she was
trying to turn
them against me
and the lies that
she was telling
to to them, which
were horrific.
And I mean, that
like the day that
CPS called was my
father's
birthday. And she
she called.
So she was trying
to like pretend
like it wasn't
her and still
stay in my life.
Right. So she
makes this call.
She sends me a
picture of me and
myself. I'm
sorry, me and
myself, my father
and myself.
And it's just
that. Just a
picture of my
father and I
together like and
it's just her
birthday and it's
his birthday. But he's dead.
She's like she's
sending it like
memory, but she
also just
reported used to
CPS. Yeah. On the
same day, on the
same day. Yeah.
So and then she
calls to ask to
pick up one of my
daughters to my
youngest, who she
was really
working hard to
groom and to take
her to get her
nails done, which
she was really
good at buying
them things and
getting them to, you know,
come with her to
do things because
especially my
youngest who
really loved
getting your
nails done, doing
things with with
her. Yeah. And my
mother would just
pick at her to
get get
information. And
then she would
twist it into
something. It
wasn't. She would
tell my oldest
sister and I get
a phone call from
my oldest sister
or, you know, and
it was just it
was round and
round. We went.
So it was after
that, like that.
That was the
final break. I
was like,
that's it.
Like, are you
kidding me? Like
the hell that my
family went
through also my
our access. All
of us had to go
through for that.
I was like, so I
my attorney, so I
can't I I have an
attorney because
I'm divorced, you
know, involved
with the kids and
the custody and
everything. And I
contacted my
attorney and he
he was like, you
need to set some
boundaries with this woman.
And he's like,
are you serious?
And like, so he
recommended the
counselor. He
said, this is how
we're going to
layer this.
You're going to
get because I was
already set up
before all of
this shit went
down. I was
already set up to
go into
counseling with
somebody else
completely
different. And
but it had been
delayed because
somebody in the
practice had died
or something had
happened where
they had to take
on more clients.
And so they
pushed me back a month. So this happened.
I love how the
universe works,
right? Like that.
I'm already on my
way into
counseling that
how breaks loose.
And my attorney
is like, you're
going into this
drug and alcohol
counselor right
now. I had my
blood tested my
my urine. All of
the results were
negative. I get
in with my
counselor. I'm a
frickin mess. I
couldn't even
talk. Like I was
so beside myself.
I couldn't even
piece all of this
together for him.
He was just like,
I'm going to do this.
Yeah, write it
down. Like all
you do, but it
was like the best
thing he ever
could have said
to somebody like
me who really
enjoys writing.
Right. So he's
like, take,
you're going to
go get a journal,
go write from
your earliest
memory of trauma
that you, you can
remember all the
way up until
today. And I
started laughing.
I was like, I
want to need more
than one journal.
And he was like,
what? I was like, yeah, I want to do that.
And I was like,
I'm serious.
Like, so he went
through all of
that. And then at
the end of it
all, he was just
like, you know,
and like, like a
Goodwill hunting
kind of moment.
And you just
looked at me
holding it. And
he was just like,
you know, you're
a good person.
Like you, you, I
can't believe
you've held it
together all of
this time. The
way that things
have been.
I mean, it's
because if you go
back to your
earliest memory
of trauma, it's
probably as early
as like two or
three, if I were
to guess, right?
I mean, it's
that early.
Yeah, I, I don't
know. I think at
what the earliest
one in trauma
journal sitting
right over there,
I still have it.
I think it was
around, I was
five. Okay. From
my earliest
memory, I think I
was five
years old.
So when you think
back about the
trauma of your
childhood and you
had two abusive
parents, your
father is
physically and
emotionally
abusive. Your
mom's a
narcissist. So
severe emotional
mental abuse
there. Was she
ever physically
abusive with you?
Oh, yeah. All
the, I mean, all
the time, like, I
don't say all the
time she wasn't,
she was, uh,
yeah, she was.
Um, and the one,
the one of the
other things
leading up to the
going, I started
going low contact.
When I started,
when I was having
these
conversations
with her, when my
father passed
away, he was
buried, um, in
Arlington
national cemetery
in Washington,
DC. So we had to
go through this
process twice. So
like he, he died
suddenly.
Like he was
diagnosed with
stage four lung
cancer and 28
days he died.
He's died just
gone. That's it.
And so, which was
all like that
whole situation
with my mother and my sister.
The mass just
came right off.
Like it was, it
was awful. Like
while he was
dying. Um, and
then we go into,
um, he, he dies.
We, he is held
here in, um, the
cooler because
he, he can't be
buried
immediately in Arlington.
There's a waiting
list. Um, and so
we had to wait
until February.
So he passed away
at the end of
October. We had
like a funeral or
awake here. And
then, um, he was
held in the
funeral home and
then flown his
casket to DC.
And then we had
another ceremony
there and there,
um, we stayed on
a Navy base, um,
because
everybody's
military and my
family. And so,
um, not everyone,
but my mother and
my oldest sister
are so we
can stay.
We stayed there
and we, the day
we buried my
father at
Arlington, we
all, we had like
a dinner thing
and then, um, we
came back to the
base and we're
all
sitting around.
Everyone's
having, having a
drink and I, the,
the temperature
starts to come
up. I start to,
uh, you know, I'm
starting to feel
like, oh shit,
all hell's going
to break loose.
I'm going
outside. I'm
going to go have
a cigarette and
go outside and
sure enough, my
mother physically
attacked my, my
middle sister.
And now thank
God, my kids are
down the hallway.
They're in our
room playing.
They're old
enough to be at
that point to be
left just down
the hallway. And,
um, and then my
oldest sister
comes out and is
laughing like,
um, I'm just
kicked the shit
out of, you know,
your sister.
And I'm like, and
I, I remember
too, like
thinking, like I
went in to talk
to her after and
it was so
normalized by all
of us to get the
shit kicked out.
We're grown women
with children.
Yeah. That's what
I was going to
ask you is if you
come from a
childhood of
physical abuse,
take the
emotional mental
abuse. Cause I
think if there's
physical abuse,
there's mental
and
emotional abuse.
That just goes
without saying,
but if you come
and you have both
parents,
typically with a
lot of people,
it's one parent
doing it. You had
it from both
mother and
father. Um, but
when someone
comes from a
childhood of
physical abuse
and then you
become adults,
how, how do you align with that?
How do you align?
It sounds like
you were the only
one that was
looking around
saying this isn't
normal. This is
crazy behavior.
But then your
sisters and your
mom are like, oh,
it's just, it's
just what we do
in our family.
It's just how it
is. So how does,
how, how do you,
um, why do you
think you're the
one that was able
to recognize this
is not normal
behavior?
Is it because
that you were on
a healing journey
and you were
trying to break
the generational
trauma and the
cycle as a
parent, did your
children inspire
you to, um, to
get out of this
cycle? And like,
why do you think
your sister
stayed in
this cycle?
Well, I'm, I'm
the family
scapegoat for
one. Um, you
know, obviously
like I, and I
just think that
there's always
that one in the
family that looks
at is able to
pull away far
enough from it to
become an
observer and go,
this is
fucked up.
Like, you know,
and then also,
you know, being a
teacher, working
in education and
seeing, um, and
knowing how to,
how people,
adults talk to
each other on a
professional
manner, um, how
you interact with
children, so on
and so forth.
Um, that, that
has a lot to do
with it, which, I
mean, when I got
my bachelor's
degree, which
took me like
eight years
because I was
constantly
running, quitting
college, dropping
out, partying,
living somewhere
to be safe,
coming back to college.
It took me a long
time to get my
bachelor's
degree. And I was
the first one in
my family. No, I,
my sister, I'm
closest with, she
was the first
one. I was the
first one to get
my master's
degree. So, but
when you're told
like shitty
things, like I'm
sitting with my,
my father, my
oldest sister,
like, oh, you
fucking think you
know everything
because you have
a bachelor's
degree now.
I think you're
better than
everybody, don't
you? You know,
and it's like, so
it's, it's that
kind of thing
when you're,
you're in a, a
system like an
education system
where it's
drilled into you
how to navigate,
um, conflicts and
to honor kids.
And how do we do
better as adults?
Um, you know, so,
and you're
constantly
learning your in
professional
development,
you're reading
novel after novel
after novel,
you're constantly
reading your in
professional,
you're always
learning.
So like for me,
that became like
second nature to
me. You know what
I mean? So like,
I'd see a
situation and I'm
like, so then I
start going down
these
rabbit holes.
So you were able
to then really
identify what was
going on because,
because would you
say that it
clicked like it
took you the
eight years to
get your
bachelor's degree
because you're,
you're, you're
coping. So
you're, you're
coming from such
a place
of trauma.
And then now
you're out in the
world trying to
do things normies
do when you're,
and remember your
gen X too. So you
have the gen X
level trauma we
all, most of us
have, right?
And that's,
that's hard
enough. Like we
all grind it
through just
trying to be
normal with our
normal gen X
trauma. You have
it like 10 times
on top of that,
the trauma. So
it's no wonder
the fact that you
even finished
college, I think
is commendable
because you were
coping with
alcohol, you're
coping with
drugs, you're
coping with
self-sabotage,
all that stuff.
But you get your
degree. When did
it click for you?
Was it when you
started teaching
and being out in
the world and
seeing how
children are
supposed to be
treated? Is that
when it clicked
for you and you
were able to
identify this
shit is
fucked up.
Or did you start
realizing it when
you were in
college and you
were away from
your family and
you were around
other people or
were you with
people who were also trauma?
I think she
individuated from
the family unit,
which gives you
perspective.
To a certain
degree, but not
until she went no
context, really.
Oh, I think, I
was going to say
earlier, but it's
just been
flowing. It feels
like you set some
boundaries with
your mom and then
she
ratcheted it up.
And then she
called CPS on
you, but you
tried setting
some boundaries
and it was like,
no, no, honey.
And then she went
in a little bit
harder, it
seems like.
But I'm curious,
when did she have
the light bulb
moment of?
I think there was
a slow
individuation and
they sensed it to
your point.
Let's let
her answer.
Yeah, I don't
know if there was
like one
specific, you
know, it was
like, I
just knew when,
even before I had
kids, I I knew
that I didn't
want to raise my
kids in an
environment like
I was raised.
And when my first
marriage started
feeling like the
environment that
I was raised in,
I left and was
like, this shit
is not going to
be my story.
I'm not, you
know, I'm not
going to be
dependent on, you
know, a man.
I'm not going to
be dependent on
anybody, you
know, because
there's so Gen X
too, right?
We're all like
that. We're like,
yeah, you're not
going to fucking
tell me I'm going
to be a mom and
do my own thing.
But but I just
saw like some
some of the
things and it was
both ways.
You know what I
mean? It wasn't
just my ex. It
wasn't just me.
It was both of us
and the the
function, this
the dysfunction
and and just
seeing it.
I was just like,
I don't want I
don't want this
to be my story.
Well,
what do I do?
I'm thinking and
I did a lot of
blaming on him at
the beginning of
the divorce and
and I tried to
work through
things and there
were changes for
a certain amount
of time.
I had my own
issues, my own
self sabotage, my
own infidelity.
You know, I had
you name it like
I was just I was
breaking it apart
just as much as
he was the
marriage.
So then I get
into another
relationship and
now and I'm and
I'm being treated
the same way and
I'm hearing
almost similar
things from both
of my intimate,
you know,
partners.
And I'm like. And
all of a sudden,
something starts
to click within
me like, well,
maybe it's not
just that maybe
it is me.
Maybe part of
this is me. Maybe
I need to go
deeper and maybe
I need to
actually
investigate why
where these
patterns are
coming from.
Why am I like
this? Why do I
shut down? Why do
I explode?
Why do I? Why?
Why? Right. So
and that's when
and my my
husband, I'll
never forget the
moment I talk
about it in my
book when he just
looked at me.
And now this is
like four years
after my father
has passed the
narcissistic
abuse is full
throttle.
And I mean, I
have anxiety
through the roof.
I am exploding at
anything.
I, you know, I am
so completely
dysregulated and
living 100
percent in
survival mode and
through the
subconscious.
Right. So I was
not a
good person.
I was not
somebody fun to
be around at all.
And so and he's
you know, he
started
calling me out.
You know what I
mean? Like, I
can't deal with
this anymore.
Like something
has to change.
And that's when I
said, OK, I'm
going to go into
counseling and,
you know, the
funny thing.
And then now you
know what happens
like. Right.
Right. Right. And
now we're dealing
with our
own issues.
His father also
had died eight
months before my
father. So we had
two widowed
mothers always at
our house and
trying to set
boundaries.
Well, we have our
three kids and we
have our exes and
we have jobs and
we're trying to
keep keep it all
together.
And it's just
like it just kept
bringing up
everything just
was like thrown
in my face, like
all at once.
It was like
you're going to
deal with this.
Like literally
God was like,
you're going to
deal with this.
You don't want to
go to counseling.
You're fine.
Signed up for
counseling
for you.
You know what?
I'm going to put
you there sooner.
You need to see
this right now.
You need to see
it. I'm going to
give it to you
all at once. Like
you've got
to see it.
You've got to get
out of this
relationship.
You've got to get
better for your
kids and for your
your husband and
for yourself.
So it's amazing.
And let's throw
in just keep in
mind. Perry
menopause was
probably starting
to know 100
percent.
And that's and
that's not be
overstated
enough. That is
such a huge issue.
I'm so glad you
brought that up.
Yeah, that's such
a huge issue
because that
affects
everything.
So to me, it
sounds like it
took most of your
life to
get there.
It took it took
most and took
until your 40s to
to get there
where you're
like,
enough, enough.
This is enough.
And that you
became the person
you needed for
yourself.
You protected
yourself. You
protected that
little girl
because now you
realize probably
no one's no one's
going to give me
what I've been
searching for.
My mom is never
going to give me
what I need.
She's never going
to give me
what I need.
My sisters are
never going to
give me what I
need. It's
not coming.
I have I have to
give it to myself
enough of this
shit. That's what
it sounds
like to me.
Oh, 100 percent.
And I talk about
that in my book
where I say I
needed to get as
close to that
little girl as
possible in order
to start the
journey.
Yeah. So so
you're exactly
right. And that's
exactly
what I did.
I mean, that it's
not this kind of
healing, this
healing work is
not for the week
of heart.
You know, I'm
sorry, I'm
getting a little
emotional. No,
no, no, no.
Whenever I talk
about getting
close to my
little girl, I
always get
emotional because
my heart breaks
for her.
And I wish I
could. I'm
getting
emotional. I wish
I could go back
and just give her
a hug and tell
her it's all
going to be OK.
I promise you,
you're going to
get everything
you want. You
just got to get
through this.
But we grew up
not knowing is it
ever going to be
OK? And I don't
know about you,
but I had suicidal tendencies.
I had suicidal
tendencies for
sure. Oh, I did.
Definitely. So
it's I mean, I
feel so many of
us are true
survivors.
Like it's legit.
We're really
survivors. We we
could have easily
not have made it.
Oh, I know. I
know. And that's
what I thank my
counselor for
because he really
he really brought
that to the
forefront for me.
He was like he
was the one that
planted the seed,
the original seed
about
writing my story.
He was like,
Denise, you like
considering how
successful you
are, like your
teacher, your you
know, you you're
married, you have
kids like, you
know, you have a
shit together.
Considering all
of the shit that
you have went
through, he's
like, girl, like,
you really need
to like honor
yourself.
Like it's kind of
a big deal. And I
was like, you
know, and you're
like, yeah, well,
I feel like for
so many of us,
especially Genex
women, no matter
what background
we're coming
from, we are just
now at midlife
honoring
ourselves.
It is not
anything we were
taught to. In
fact, we were
taught the
opposite. Don't
get too big for
your britches.
Don't do your own
home. All that
stuff. Do not
celebrate
yourself.
And then we we
became the people
we we needed for
our children and
made sure to
break that
generational
cycle and break
the trauma.
And we're just
now to that
point. But don't
you find and I've
said this before,
like, I didn't
have a blueprint
on how to
do this.
Like sometimes,
you know, people
have told me
you're such a
great mother or
wife or whatever
you hear, like
you were just
saying your
counselor was
saying, you know,
you look at you,
you've done so
many things.
But it's like I
did. I built this
myself. I didn't
have a blueprint.
And so sometimes
it's like, be
careful because
this could all
fall apart.
I could go back
easily. Like this
is like something
not now. But
there were years
where I'm like,
listen, I'm
faking it till I
make it because I
no one taught me
how to do this.
And I'm going by
instincts and
what I wanted
growing up. But
that damaged
person is still
here. So that
damaged person
could still I can
still fall off
the the
path here.
There was always
that fear, you
know, because
it's not
guaranteed. Does
that make sense?
That makes
perfect sense. I
mean, especially
when you when you
start
understanding
your own patterns
and even even
drill down, like
you were saying
earlier, like you
start drilling
down, you get
down into, oh, my
God, this is why
you start realizing.
Why, you know,
you're where your
trauma responses
come from and
then how toxic
your trauma
responses are.
And then, you
know, oh, my God.
So and, you know,
so when you've
lived like that
and you think
about the brain,
you think about
the nervous
system and the
wiring of it all
like, you know,
we had the cords
when we were
kids, you know,
with the phone
and it had that
memory in it.
Do you know how
hard it was to
make that cord
straighten back
out? It's the
same thing with
your nervous
system and the
wiring of
your brain.
So that's why I
give myself grace
when, you know,
if I if I a
pattern shows up
that I'm not so
proud of, I'm
like, fuck.
But at the same
time, I'm like,
Grace, give some
compassion to
self like it's
OK. You know, I
know where this
comes from. It's
not an excuse.
You know, it's
just keep going.
Yeah. So I
totally get it.
It's a great
chance to also
see how far
you've come
because I used to
have it happen
all the time.
You know, in our
opinion of our
marriage, like my
whole thing was
you're leaving.
So I'm going to
do everything I
can because you
just leave
to sleep.
There's always a
strain. So I
don't care. I
might as well
make it happen
that I control
over the outcome.
Exactly.
He talks by you
leaving. Yeah. He
was like, I'm not
I think it took
10 years and I'm
not kidding.
We've been
married 31 years
together, 32. And
I think the first
10 years of our
marriage and we
were raising
children.
And I was still
like, any day now
he's out. Oh, I
know. And that's
exactly how it
how it's been.
It's funny
because my
husband, my
current husband,
together, 13
years, we've been
married 10.
And the same
thing. Just go.
Yeah. Just go.
Like, why are you
still here? Why
don't you just
go? Yeah.
Yeah. But so much
of it is where
our like it was
ourselves. And
then I mean,
again, we're just
healing now,
really. But then
you could be
like, OK, you're
not leaving.
So now I need to
figure out how to
do this, you
know, because
this is like so
it's so much.
That's my point
is so for so many
of us that are
Gen X that didn't
have a blueprint,
didn't have model
behavior.
But we know we
want to create
that so badly for
our children. And
so we're like, I
think we should
be so proud of
ourselves because
we the love we
have for our
children was so
inspiring that it
helped us get
over our
utter fear.
Of doing the
thing we have no
idea how to do.
Oh, yeah. And by
the way, like if
you told anybody
that you were
going into
counseling,
they're like,
wow, she's really
fucked up.
Totally. Like now
the younger
generations have
totally, thank
God, have changed
the perspective
on all of it with
mental health.
But you're right.
But you're right.
For Gen X. Yeah,
that was a
weakness. You
could not tell
somebody that you
were seeking
counseling, like
even like, I
don't know, 10
years ago, you
couldn't know.
And now recently
you can like, oh,
good, good for
you. Like, you
know, but that's
on the
millennials and
Gen Z. They have
I hand that to
them. They have.
I agree.
100 percent. I
mean, even our 15
year old and he's
a boy and he'll
be like, I'm
feeling anxious.
Like he'll say,
I'm going to go
brush my teeth
and I'm feeling
it's so natural
for him to just
talk about his
mental health.
And it's a
beautiful thing.
Yes. Thank you,
God, that this
has changed for
these kids. I
might forget
about it. My 25
and 28 year old
talk
about it like.
Yeah, exactly. I
mean, that's
something that
for sure I've
spent a lot of
time talking
about with my
daughters, you
know, conflict,
conflict
resolution, being
able to have hard
conversations,
being open, not
being afraid to
have
conversations,
you know, all
that stuff.
And, you know, I
talk about the
ego death when
you become a
parent, too. And
because a lot of
people have kids
for various
reasons, but
they're always
self centered.
They're always
very ego driven.
You know, so what
what you dream up
of your life and
when you're
thinking about
starting a family
and you have this
vision, this, you
know, magical
place that you
and your children
are going
to live in.
And, you know,
this idea of how
it's going to go
down and when it
doesn't start
going that way.
And what it
really actually
looks like, there
are requires a
lot of you having
to put that ego
aside and say,
what does this
kid need?
Who is this
person in front
of me? And how do
I how do I be
there for them to
help them grow
and to develop
the way that they
should in a
healthy way? And
I think that, you
know, having
parents that were
completely
controlling like
mine, a
completely
violent fucked up
situation.
I mean, and then
being able to
look at your own
kid and say,
that's not gonna
be your story.
Yeah, and I'm
gonna fight like
hell to make sure
that it's not.
Absolutely.
Absolutely. And
you know what,
you just brought
up such a great
point because
because for those
of us that didn't
come from what we
dreamt of wanting
for our children,
we didn't cut
that so opposite
of where we
came from.
It can be very
scary when you
are working so
hard to create
this wonderful
childhood for
them. And when it
doesn't go that
way, it feels
scarier because
you're like, no,
no, no, because I
need it to be
this way because
I came from here.
I needed to stay
good. I needed to
say it's letting
go of that ego,
recognizing
they're their own
person,
recognizing
you're the
parent. This
doesn't have to
do with you and
how you're
feeling about
your past. You
need to honor
them and their
childhood, their
experience.
That's a whole
process.
Yeah, that's
fake. That's
huge. It is. It's
huge. I mean,
even especially,
you know, nobody
tells you what
it's like when
they get their
license and they
no longer need you.
You know, like
nobody prepares
you for that.
Like, I'm never
going to get my
oldest. They get,
they jump in the
car, see you
later. And I'm
like, what the
fuck just
happened? What
just happened?
Did that just
happen? And then
they're literally
gone. And you're
like, oh, wow.
And that, you
know, that slow
rolling from the
license, but it
happened so
close. Like you
have them,
everything, you know, is huge.
You know, it's
usually, you
know, everybody
has conflicts.
Everybody has
problems and
issues, parents
and children.
They do. However,
you know, we want
to keep them to a
minimum through
open dialogue and
conversations and
all of that
good stuff.
But so like, but
from the time
they're born
until about 15,
you know, it's
like, okay, you
can navigate
through the
hormones, all
that. And then
when they get
six, for me
anyways, this was
my experience, 16
years old.
And then they get
their car,
they're gone. And
then two years
after, and then
it's all these
last, and they're
senior years. And
I mean, it hits
you so fast in
two years, it's
not even funny.
And then they're
off into college
or, you know,
they've moved out
or maybe they're
still living with
you, whatever the
case may be.
But you see them
less and less and
less and less.
Yeah, no, it's
true. There is,
that makes a lot
of sense. But
there is that
from birth to 15
is kind of all
similar. And then
15 to 18, it's
all ratchet up
like that. And
then they're
gone. It is. And
then raising
adult children,
that's a whole
nother phase. You
know, it's crazy.
But I do want to
go back. So it
took you the
eight years to
get your
bachelor's
degree. How many
schools were you
at during
that time?
A lot. Not many
actually, wait,
let me think. So
I was at a
community college
here locally.
Then I went up,
then I went to
Buff State. I was
there, then I
left there and
went back to the
community
college.
Then I left this
area and went up
to the
Adirondacks to
North Country
Community College
in Saranac Lake,
which was
beautiful,
beautiful place
to our beautiful
area to be.
Although there
was a lot of LSD
and mushrooms up
there during that
time period. So
that was part of
the problems and
issues up there.
Question for you
on that. Was
there any
therapeutic value
in that though?
Absolutely.
Absolutely. I'm
that girl that is
still eyeballing
wanting to try
the ayahuasca.
Because I
wouldn't do acid.
I think
it's too...
That wasn't
necessarily like
the best thing
for me at that
time. I know that
in hindsight,
right? But as far
as mushrooms,
plant-based
medicines, I'm
all for it. I
like to maintain
a holistic style
as much as
possible when it
comes to clean
eating and taking
care of your body
and those things.
Don't tell me.
Get me wrong. I
still drink and I
have fun.
I'm not
completely
straight-edge.
But I would
definitely
partake in some
of those
plant-based
things again. I
do feel that it
was therapeutic
at the time that
I really needed
to destroy my
reality from what
I was
actually living.
Did you happen
to... Were you in
the Grateful Dead
at all during
that time? Yeah,
very much. Very
much. Do you see
the tapes above
Brian's head? In
the corner? Yeah,
okay. Okay, so
that's a holder
that has like 200
bootlegs.
She had a ticket.
I was driving up
95 from Jersey to
Foxborough and we
scored Buffalo
tickets. Oh my
God. But then we
got to Foxborough
and traded my
Buffalo ticket
for a show at
Foxborough. And
then we didn't
wind up going up
to Buffalo. And
I'd regret it,
but here's
what it is.
I've only seen
The Grateful Dead
in Buffalo. Isn't
that funny? And
the last one that
I went to, the
last show that I
went to when
Jerry was still
alive, if you
don't mind me
sharing this
because it was
great. It was
perfect for us
for our
generation. Yeah,
we love it.
So of course I
was like broke,
super broke and
wanted to go and
everybody was
going. We were
all going and I
was like, "Okay,
I'm going. So let
me figure out how
I'm going to do
this." So I lived
nearby
reservation and
so went there,
bought
cigarettes, two
cartons of
cigarettes,
invested my
money, went up
there, sold
cigarettes,
$5 a pack.
So it's like
tripled my money,
went and bought
my ticket. Then,
which is great,
right? Like,
"Okay, yeah,
we're all in,
we're all going."
Well, there were
so many bunk
tickets sold and
I had one
of them.
That there were,
I don't know how
many of us, there
were like 200 of
us or something
in a large number
that couldn't get
in. And there
were people at
the gate. So the
stadium was
surrounded by a
big, tall gate
while they
started banging
on the gate. They
took down the
gate and ran into
a concert and I
was following
behind. And
that's how the
last show I got
into it.
That is awesome.
That is classic.
I love that. I
love that.
What year was
that? Late 80s or
early 90s?
They had to be
like 92 maybe.
Okay, yeah.
That's awesome. I
wonder if you
have that
show on.
I'm sure
I'm fine.
I'm up there.
We'll have to
look and see. On
a side note, have
you ever heard of
Billy Strings?
I don't think so.
Who's Billy Strings?
Check him out.
He's amazing.
He's like, he's
kind of,
Brian gets...
Technically he's
bluegrass.
Bluegrass jam
band, but really
jam band. Like
we've gone, we're
addicted now.
We're going to
see Billy Strings
shows like we
were dead shows.
So he's worth you
checking out.
Check out Billy
Strings.
I appreciate the
recommendation.
Probably St.
Augustine, or no,
St. Augustine,
Tampa, then
Savannah,
Georgia.
But when I tell
you it's
addicting like
the dead, it is.
He's amazing.
He's the whole
parking
lot scene.
See what? Early
30s, late 20s,
early 30s. But
he's amazing.
Amazing.
He does some dead
covers sometimes
or Jerry cover or
Floyd cover.
More
Dylan covers.
Dylan covers. But
they're amazing.
So definitely
check him out.
I definitely
will. I started
following Fish
right after.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I was on a fish
kick for a while
for like three,
four years.
Was it all while
you were going
for your degree?
Oh, yeah.
Okay. So where
did you
eventually
graduate from?
From Buffalo State.
Okay. From the
Adirondacks. Did
you go back to
Buffalo State?
I did. And of
course I moved
back in with my
parents.
The boyfriend
that I had at
that time, we had
broken up. And so
then I called my
dad to come
and get me.
And I was
probably at like
rock bottom as
far as like
drugs, alcohol,
like so strong
out, it wasn't
even funny.
And came home and
then I don't
know, like six
months to a year
later, I got into
another
relationship with
the guy that I
married for my
first marriage.
We moved in
together.
Real quick
though, when your
dad came to get
you and you moved
back home, how
long had it been
since the last
time you had
lived at home?
Like two years.
Okay. So and
every time you
went back home,
was it the same
exact patterns
with your parents
towards you?
Yeah. So it was
your, you're the
problem. You have
a drinking
problem. You need
to follow our
routine, our rules.
I mean, at this
point I was like
21 years old. And
I'm like, our
car, our rule,
our house, our
rules, all
that shit.
And I'm like,
like they per
curfew. And the
same shit just
started all
over again.
Right.
So like, you
know, it was,
well, you don't
come home when we
want you to, then
we're going to
bolt lock.
You don't, I was
only given it,
there was two
key, two locks,
one on the door
handle and
a bolt lock.
And I was only
given the key to
the bottom, the
handle. I was not
given a key to
the bolt lock.
So if I wasn't
home and I was 21
years old, if I
wasn't home when
they wanted me
home, they would
bolt lock it.
So I was bolt
locked out of the
house. So I knew
that, and it
would be like two
o'clock.
Two o'clock was
my curfew. And I
was like, I mean,
I've just been
living on my own.
Like, I don't,
you know
what I mean?
Yeah. Wait. So
they would wait
up till two to
bolt lock.
Yeah, I think so.
I don't know. I
don't remember,
but I think he
did. My father
did. He would
sleep on
the couch.
He would wait
until he heard
me. And, or he
would set an
alarm. I don't
really remember
exactly
what he said.
But yeah, well,
if it was reached
after two
o'clock, I just
wouldn't go home.
You know, I would
just stay with my
friends or
whatever.
I was like,
whatever I'm
doing that. But
it got, you know,
it just, it just
would escalate
again. You know
what I mean?
It was like, I
would get my life
back together. I
would be on a
good path.
And then there
would be some
conflict. Like I
stayed out too
late or my room
was a mess or
whatever.
Whatever it was
that they had an
issue with. Like
I, and I was
going to school
to become a
teacher. And I
mean, my father
would screw, you
know, because I
was out partying
on the weekends.
He would tell me
that, you know, I
was never going
to be a teacher,
that I was a
slut, that I was
staying out in
bars with boys,
with guys and
this and that.
And so, I mean,
the final straw
when I, he
physically
attacked me
again. But this
time I was, I had
just gotten out
of the shower and
I had a robot and
I come out of the
shower to go to
my bedroom.
And he started
screaming at me
about something
from downstairs.
And I was like, I
said something
like, fuck you or
fuck off or
something.
You know, I was
just like, I'm
tired of this
shit. And he came
storming up the
stairs and I had
gotten into my
bedroom and he
grabbed me by my
throat, picked me
up and threw me
onto my bed and
my robe
opened up.
And I was livid.
Like that was
like, you have
now violated me
more than you've
ever violated me
before. And I
stood up and I on
the bed and I was
like, you ever
fucking
touch me again.
I said, I'm
calling the
police, get the
fuck away from
me, like right in
his face and was
like, you know,
not even this
nice. You know, I
was like, yeah, I
mean, and and he
laughed like a
snipe,
like, ha ha ha.
And like walked
out of the door
and I was like,
that's fucking
it. And I packed
up my shit and I
never left back.
And how old were
you then?
I was 21.
Okay, so, so the,
but that doesn't
mean that I
didn't have a
relationship with
my parents. That
means that I
didn't live with
them anymore.
So when he came
to get you from
the Adirondacks
and you went to
Buffalo State,
were you still
living with
him? Yeah.
Okay. And then
when you grabbed
muting, you were
commuting. And so
when you
graduated from
Buffalo State,
were you still
living with them?
No. So I came
back, I got back
into Buffalo
State. I was
living with them
for, I don't
know, a semester
or two. And then
I was
like, I'm done.
And I was dating
somebody and this
is how it would
go. Like I would
run to whoever
for safety that I
was with. And
whether the
relationship that
I was in was
healthy or not, I
was just running
for safety, which
I didn't even
realize, right?
Right. Right.
You're just, it's
a different home.
You just need,
literally need to
be in a different
space for your
own safety. And
probably those
relationships
were totally
fucked up too.
But again, that's
how bad it
was at home.
So when you were
going to Buffalo
State and you
moved out and you
moved in, was
that your first
husband that you
moved in with?
Yes. And so how
did you meet him?
We had worked
together. That's
how we originally
met. We actually
went to high
school together,
which I didn't
really know him,
like when we were
in high school.
And, but we
worked together
was like how I
got to know him.
And then I'm at a
little
convenience store
here in
Youngstown.
Okay. So you were
working. It was
like a grocery
store, like a
little mini
grocery store.
And he was the
manager and he is
a year younger
than me. And so
we, and then I
saw him out one
night and we just
started talking.
And I don't, and
then it just kind
of went from
there. Like we,
we all had, we
had a bunch of
friends in
common. And so
then we just
started hanging
out. We started
dating. And then
there was a
period where we
broke up, which I
probably should
have stayed
broken up, but
didn't, you know
what I mean?
Went back again.
Yeah. Yeah. And
then we got back
together and then
we moved in together.
Okay. And then
you were
commuting to
Buffalo state.
Correct. Right.
Was he also going
to school? No, he
was, he was
working. He was,
he works in a
trade. Okay.
Okay. And then
how, how long
until from you
guys living
together, did you get married?
Like seven years.
Oh, you lived
together for
seven years and
then got married.
Yeah. Yeah. I
think it was like
seven years. It
was a long time
during that time.
Or did you? No,
not until we got
married, did we
have kids? So I
mean, I was 20,
21 around then.
And then I didn't
get married until
I was 28.
And did you want
to get married
that whole time
and he didn't or
reversed or did
you both just not
want to get
married during
that time?
Really what I
was, I really
wasn't a
discussion. Like,
I mean, we
discussed it and
everything, but I
was kind of
waiting for it to
happen. And then
I, once I got
close to me,
finally finishing
my
bachelor's degree.
I was like, I
don't want to
stay here. Like I
don't want to
stay in New York.
And, but here I
am, I'm still
here. And I was
like, so, like,
unless this is
serious, and
we're going to
take this to the
next level, like
I'm, I'm going to
look for teaching
positions like in
the Carolinas or
somewhere. And
the next thing I
know there was an
engagement ring.
I was like, okay.
Okay, so then you
guys got married
and you had
mentioned that he
was similar to
your father or
your
mother or both?
Yeah, it was
similar to my, my
dad in that not
in the violent
was not violent.
No. But just in
the controlling,
in controlling
and making people
feel
uncomfortable.
Like, coercive
control.
Mm hmm.
And was that
comfortable? Do
you think you,
that like we
talked about
before, as
opposed to going
for someone who
was the healthy
opposite of where
you came from,
was your first
husband, just a
comfort, comfortable
trauma
that you knew?
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah. Yeah. Um,
and then how long
from the time you
guys got married
to you having
your children?
We had our kids
like right away.
So like two
years, I think we
were married for
two years. And
then so I had my
first daughter
when I was 30.
And then my next,
she was 18 months
apart from her
sister. Yeah.
So I had that I
wanted to have my
kids like right
away that I'm in
hindsight, like,
you know, they
like, I know now
why women take
two years to let
their bodies
fully recover
after having a
child that
needs it.
But no one talked
to us about that.
No, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no,
no, no,
no, no, no.
How did becoming
a mother change you?
I was just made
me way more
compassionate,
empathetic. I
think I've always
had that kind of
in me anyways.
But, you know,
just wanting to
be better, like
overall, just
wanting to be
about a person
just wanting to
give them things
that we
didn't have.
And for me was just a stable life. Yeah. Yeah. And
we've kind of
touched on that
already a little
bit of that
inspiration and
everything. So
when you
graduated from
college, did you
get a teaching
degree
right away?
So the way it
works in New York
State is that you
get certified. So
you get your
degree and then
you get your
certifications.
So I was able to
start working right away, which I did.
And then I got
two
certifications,
one in elementary
education, one in
special
education. So you
have your
bachelor's degree
and your two
certifications so
I could teach in
both of those
subject areas, so
to speak.
What made you
choose special
education?
Because I always
say I have two
sisters who are
severely mentally and physically disabled.
But I always say
people who work
in special
education are
angels on earth
and it takes a
very special
person to do that
and to make that
choice. What
motivated you to
choose that path?
My sister.
So because your
sister was deaf and you grew up with that.
Yeah, exactly. I
mean, I
originally was
going to become a
teacher of the
deaf. So the
pathway was to
become first get
my special
education degree
for my bachelor's
and then my
master's degree
was to get
certified to
teach deaf
students.
And then it just
kind of.
I don't know what
happened, but at
some point there
was a break where
I was like,
probably because
I had been in it
for eight years,
I was like, I got
to do something.
I got to finish
this out.
And I mean, I
still finished it
out huge with two
certifications.
It just wasn't.
There was a lot
more work
involved in
becoming a
teacher for the
deaf and at that
time I just didn't have it in me.
I was like, I,
it's been eight
years. I need to
get my degree and
get working and
making some real
money because I
had waitress like
the whole time
through my
through college.
So I worked on
the weekends and
yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, she'd been
grinding always.
Well, with some
fucked up stuff
in the back.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, well,
probably though,
being a teacher
in special
education, you
do, do you work
with some
children
who are deaf?
I've no, not at
the time I
worked, but no, I
haven't worked
with any kids
that are hearing
impaired or deaf,
but no, right now
I work with
children
with autism.
And a lot of, a
lot of issues are speech delays.
So, you know,
like currently, I
just think that
sign language
would really,
really benefit a
lot of kids in
this population
today because
there is a lot of
difficulty with
children of
autism expressing
themselves.
And so just, so I
took a break for
three years. So
I've just returned to the classroom again.
And I really have
landed my dream
job. I love this
population of
kids. They, they
have huge hearts
and it's just a
great career. I'm
just happy to be
there and I'm
hopeful.
You know,
hopefully I can
continue to work
in the position
that I'm in and
then just retire
eventually. Right? Isn't that the goal?
But I do love
this population.
Well, it's funny
because you know
how life shifts.
So you know what,
where my original
thought was and
my, my
inspiration for
going to college
to become a
teacher started
with my,
my sister.
But as you go on
your path and
you're traveling
along and it's
like, well, this
is, this is what
I, you know, this is what was offered at the time.
It was also
recommended to
get both
certifications
because it made
me extremely
hireable because
when I graduated
at that time
teaching was not
like it is today
where you can
walk in and get a
job almost
anywhere because
the need
is so high.
There was, you
know, you would
be put into a
pool with 500
other people
interviewing for
one position, if
not more than
that. So I had to
make myself, I had to make myself a teacher.
Yeah. Yeah.
During that time
when I, yeah.
Yeah. I don't
feel like the
special ed was as
well funded as I
remember my dad
used to say, if
you want a
definite job,
because he was
obviously a
father to
children who were
disabled.
He's like special
ed going special
ed because
there's so few
people that truly
choose that path.
But you're saying
that wasn't a
guarantee for you to not it.
Not in New York
state and not in
New York state at
that time. I
mean, now there's
a lot more
openings for a
need for special
education. Also
the autism, you
know, it has
risen at
astronomically.
So the need and
demand is there.
So on that note,
so you've been
doing this for 20
years. When you
first started,
did you see, did
you have as many
kids on the
autism spectrum
as you do now?
No,
absolutely not.
What's your
personal opinion
on that?
As to why?
Yeah. If you
might, you don't
have to share it
if you
don't want to.
I know I'll be
completely honest
with you because
I've watched it.
And I, you know,
it's funny, I'm
just gonna be
frank, I think it
has a lot to do
with
vaccinations.
And
unfortunately,
you know, I, and
I think there's
more and more
evidence that's
coming out now to
support that. I
think that a lot
of things were
suppressed
in the public.
But I mean, you
know, talk to any
teacher that's
been in the
profession for as
long as I have or
even longer. And
I mean, they can
tell you that the
increase of
autism has
increased
drastically in each district.
So districts in
New York State,
the way that they
would handle
things in regards
to special
education is they
have like a
localized center
like called BOCES
here in New York,
where they would
subcontract them.
They're like a
hub of like
special education
teachers. And
they have
classrooms that
they they make
based on need,
and the districts
subcontract them
to educate the kids.
Now districts,
they're so
they're so
overfilled the
BOCES is so
overfilled and
then districts
are paying out
over and over and
over so kids are
going out of
district right
from their home
school to get
educated,
especially students with disabilities.
Now, a lot of in
New York State, a
lot of the
districts are
moving to open up
classrooms within
their district
because the
population and
the need is so
big. It has
gotten so big
that it's not
just, you know,
1% or 2% of the
population
overall.
So they have to,
they, some
districts can't
even afford to
subcontract
somebody else to
take on those
students of need.
So they're
basically,
they're now
creating their
own classrooms
within their
districts to
save money.
I have a
question. So
you're saying
there's a real
need there
because there is
an argument that
from one side
that would say
there's just
better diagnostic
tools, there's
better
recognition.
It's always been
the same
population, but
we've just now
identified
better today.
I don't believe
that. But I don't
have a feeling
you don't
either. Right.
No, no,
not at all.
The population has grown and
it's a real big,
it's a bigger
challenge,
I guess.
Oh, absolutely.
And I mean, you
know, I remember
I was teaching at
a school in
Buffalo and I
mean, my, as a
special education
teacher, you had
kids that had
speech delays
that, you know,
they had physical
impairments.
Autism, like even
when I was like a
brand new
teacher, wasn't
even a thing,
right? It wasn't
even like on like
a diagnosis here.
So I got my
master's degree
in 2004. I
graduated. So I
started teaching
like 2000.
And I've taken,
so I've taken
time off for my
girls. I had my
girls and so it's
25 years. And so
when you're
looking at like
this long span,
because remember,
I was also like,
when I was going
to college, I was
in
classrooms too.
So I had to
student teach, I
had to observe, I
had to so put all
those years in there too.
90s, yeah.
So now we're all
the way up to
2025. And I
remember
specifically
walking down and
looking at my
caseload of the
special education
kids on my list
and how it had
changed in
two years.
And I was like,
and I and there's
this diagnosis
out there now
called autism
that's put on
students, IEPs
and an individual
education plan
that we have.
And I'm like, so
now this is like
this new thing,
right? So we're
being trained and
so on and so
forth. And you're
watching now at
that time, they
were like, I had
two kids out of
let's say 20 on
my caseload. Now
it's like the
complete
opposite. Like
you only have
kids that are
speech, like two
kids with speech
lays or, and the
rest are
all autism.
Wow. Wow.
I think back to
like when we were
kids, we had a
class for special
needs kids. And
then I can think
of at least a
couple kids who
maybe were
borderline that,
you know, they're
a little
different.
That's what we
said, right?
They're a little
different.
Or slow, right?
When we said it
was slow.
But maybe they
were autistic, if
you think, I'm
sure they were,
honestly.
Well, we all had
vaccines, right?
Like, but I don't
think the same.
And even my
oldest born in,
and my daughter
was born in 2000.
They were given a
decent amount of
vaccines.
Right. But even
the vaccine
schedule between
when our kids
were getting
vaccinated to now
is vastly
different, has
increased like
times 10.
Are you alone in
your thinking in
your profession
on that?
Or is it?
I don't really, I
don't really
discuss those
kinds of things
with, you know,
my colleagues. I
just don't. I
think that we all
have our own
personal research
and things that
we look at and
our own beliefs.
And I just think
it's better not
to share some of
those things
sometimes with
people that you
work with
because, you
know, there's
just, there's so
much information.
There's so much
toxic energy in
the air already
based on the
public, you know,
like what's going
on with politics
and all of that.
And so, you know,
I like to work in
a harmonious
place and
expressing how I
deeply feel about
something
sometimes is just
not the time or
place, right? So.
It's not going to
solve anything or
go in the air.
It's not going to solve anything.
We're there for
the kids. We're
there to be
present. We're
there for what's in front of us.
I really, I love
your idea though
about teaching
nonverbal
autistic children
sign language.
Has that, is that
being discussed
at all? Is that
on the
radar at all?
So it's, it is.
And the funny
thing is, is that
I just received a
survey from a
teacher that's a
coach, a special
education teacher
coach. They coach
special education
teachers, but
they're also
working with some
students.
And they're also working with some
students in a
nearby university
and they came up
with a survey
about it. So
because I worked
summer school and
that was my first
like time back
with students and
it was 100% like
little babies, like
five-year-old,
four,
five-year-old
autistic kids and
several
nonverbal.
And I used my
sign language
skills to
communicate with
them. And they
also, but I think
they also had a
little bit of
background
because it's so,
it's so easy to
communicate
through sign
language, right?
So they, the
survey, back to
the survey
though, they're,
the college kids
are thinking that
too, because
they're like,
what do you
think? Share your
thoughts. Take
the survey about
having students
with autism have
learned sign
language.
And I'm like, a
hundred percent.
Hell yeah.
Like, yes.
It's a no
brainer.
Yeah, it's a no
brainer.
Yeah.
Like, why is it
easy to
communicate?
Well, they
aren't verbal.
So you wouldn't,
you wouldn't not
speak. You
wouldn't not
speak. Like you
still speak
because they read
your lips, read
your face, read
your expressions.
That's, that's
part of
communicating,
right?
So just, I just
think that upon
diagnosis, that
should be the
first
recommendation
for the entire
family because
then they can
learn to
communicate with
one another.
And then, you
know, a kid is
put into a
classroom with a
teacher that no
sign language and
you're signing.
It doesn't mean
that you're,
you're not
teaching. You're
not talking.
It's just that
there's that
added layer of
communication
with sign. So the
kids in the
class, you could
have a
combination of
kids in a varying
degree of levels,
but maybe they
don't need, maybe
some kids don't
need the sign
language.
Others do in the
classroom, but
everybody's
getting the,
everybody is
getting
communication.
Part of it.
And it gives that
child a chance to
communicate back.
It's not all
autism is, is
speechless.
Correct. Right.
That's why I'm
curious. Yes.
Yes. The scribe
makes perfect
sense. It's just
another medium
and when you're
trying to connect
with people.
100%. 100%. So,
so when you first
started teaching,
you were still
married, you're
having your
daughters. How
long were you
guys married?
How long was I
married for my
first marriage? I
think 10, 11
years. So you
guys were
together like 17,
17, 17 years long
time. So who, how
did that go down
with the divorce? Did you initiate that?
Yeah. Well, there
were lots of,
lots of problems.
We were having a
lot of problems
in our marriage
for several
years. It wasn't
like a, like a,
all of a sudden
out of nowhere.
And so I was
still having
difficulty with
my family always.
And also with
just being a mom
and feeling very,
very left alone.
And because I had
given up teaching
at that time, I
was also, and so
I wasn't working.
So I was very
dependent on him. He was very controlling.
And in regards to
money and things
of that nature.
And who I spent
my time with, it
was a big deal.
And also whenever
my friends came
over, he was very
rude to my
friends and cold
and like they
weren't there or
would be
like, Oh, hi.
Right. You know,
so and so there
were, there were
a lot of like issues, a lot, a lot of issues like that went across a lot of issues.
Like he had his
own set of issues
like I did. And I
just resolved
myself one day to
like, this is, I
guess this is
what marriage is
supposed to be like, where you're just alone and you're like raising your kids because he never wanted to go anywhere or do anything as far as like, like take the kids. So if we, we got a couple, you know, like, I'm like, I'm not going to do anything.
Like, it's always like, I don't
want to hang out
with them. Like, I mean, literally
I had like very
little social
engagement going
on when I needed
it the most, when
my kids were little. And so
and taking the
kids out of the way, I was like,
okay, we can
figure out what
it was like.
Our kids will
hang out with
their friends.
Afterwards, it
was always their
fucking assholes.
I don't want to
hang out
with them.
Like, I mean,
literally I had
like very little
social engagement
going on when I
needed it
the most
when my kids
were little.
So, and to get
him involved in
it was horrible.
And so then I was
like, fine,
I'm just going to
make
myself happy.
Now there had
been many times,
many
conversations,
like let's just
send us, let's
get a divorce.
This is how we're
going to do this,
blah, blah, blah.
And then we would
work on it again.
Things would be
great for a
period of time.
And then they
weren't.
And then when I
finally resolved
myself to like,
this is just what
marriage is
supposed
to be like,
and I'm going to
make
myself happy.
And I'm going to
take my
daughters, even
if it's hard,
to do it all by
myself, to
wherever,
to events
and to things.
And I started
doing that and
going out
on my own.
Of course, then a
pup pops
somebody else
that is going
through a divorce
that I had been
friends with all
through
high school.
Like we were best
friends when we
were growing up
together.
And he's going
through the same
thing, right?
And so then this
relationship
starts.
Now it's not like
instant,
but the sexual
tension,
everything
is there.
And it's like,
this is
going to go bad,
if I don't get
away from this
right now.
And so I do, and
I'm committing,
recommit myself
to my marriage
and so on
and so forth.
And then it just
keeps going.
I was like, okay.
So I started
cheating on my
ex-husband
with my current
husband.
And then I broke
it off with him
and was like,
I need to fix my
marriage.
And then I was
like, this
marriage is not
repairable.
Like I can't live
with this.
He doesn't
deserve this.
We gotta go,
like enough.
There's little
girls
involved here.
And they don't
need to live with
us in this
resentment
and all of
this shit.
And I was like,
it's time to go.
So I laughed.
I said, I want a
divorce.
He was willing to
repair and
everything.
And I was like,
we both
had changes
that we needed
from one another.
And I just don't
think
emotionally,
we were
mature wise.
We were like able
to do that.
There was no
discussion about
how either one of
our traumas
had impacted our
lives either.
So it's just
like, you're
fucked up.
You're fucked up.
Okay,
let's break up.
And that the
whole thing
falls apart
because it's your
fault, not mine.
Yeah, exactly.
But there was
also that
similar pattern
from your
relationship with
your parents.
It's bad.
Then you leave.
Things, you think
they're
gonna be better.
You go
back, it's bad.
It sounds like
your marriage was
like that too,
where it was bad
and then it would
get better
and then bad and
give it that type
of thing.
So it's a similar
pattern, which
makes it
why you stayed
in it so long,
because again,
it's all
you knew.
But then you
reached
that point.
Now your current
husband, you said
there was that
foundation
of friendship and
all that.
Does he also come
from trauma or
does he come?
Like I can speak
for Brian.
Brian came from a
very traditional,
there's not that
there's
no issues.
He's an avoidant.
I'd issue free.
Yeah, yeah.
So we deal
with that.
And there wasn't
a lot of
communication,
all that stuff.
But in general,
that traditional
1950s parents are
married.
Healthy.
We spoke enough.
Healthy
family, right?
So he comes from
the exact
opposite of my
background,
which was trauma.
So for your
current, and it
sounds like your
first husband,
trauma, trauma.
For your current
husband, does he
come from more
of that
traditional or
does he also
come from--
He comes from
more of a
traditional,
but highly
avoidant, the
same
situation as Brian.
Yeah, absolutely.
Same situation,
but you wouldn't,
like when you
look at my
trauma, right?
We don't wanna
compare
traumas here,
but at the same
time, like, I
mean, sometimes
you gotta,
you know
what I mean?
Like my trauma
was worse than
your trauma.
But I think you
might have a leg
to stand on that.
You got a
good thing.
(laughing) But at the same
time, it's funny
because when we
started
unpacking,
so when things
started going
sideways
with my current
husband, with
Michael,
him and I,
it's like, you're
fucked up, no,
you're fucked up.
Like, and we were
like, we're both
fucked up.
Like we
both knew it.
Was that with
your first
husband
you're saying?
No, with my
current husband.
Like, okay, we
gotta do
something
about this.
Like, we're gonna
work
through this.
Like, he also
came from, he
was, you know,
this is his, he's
been divorced,
remarried.
So he's coming at
the same angle as
I am like,
fuck another
failed marriage,
like I can't
handle this.
Like, we gotta
take a deeper
look at
ourselves.
And so when all
of the shit went
sideways
with my mother,
I had to make
that point
too that I,
because my mother
was triangulating
my sisters
was the point
that I
had to tell,
I had to cut both
of my sisters out
of my life.
I couldn't have
any contact with
any of them
because I needed
healing so bad
that I
didn't want,
I didn't want the
contact.
Like, because I
couldn't take
hearing from my
one sister
about bullshit
that my mother
and my
oldest sister
were telling her
lies and then
trying to
have to explain
to her why I was
healing, right?
Like, she
doesn't, she
doesn't, my
mother, my
oldest sister
lived here in
this area.
So we were
physically in the
same rooms
together
where she lived
across country in
Indiana.
So she was
hearing things
from all of us,
you know
what I mean?
And trying to
discern what was
going on
where she was
always my
protector
and would help
mediate as the
middle child
often did
and does.
And so she, but
when there was
that moment
where my mother
started telling
so many lies
about me
that she started,
now it was like I
was getting
gang bullied
because she
jumped in.
So it was my
mother, my oldest
sister and my
middle sister.
And that's when I
was like,
that's it.
I have to cut
this out.
So, and then when
we were talking
about that break
and then getting
back to my
husband
and, you know,
and him thinking,
oh, it's just,
she's been
through all of
this trauma.
And I'm like,
wait a second.
You were there
with me through
all of it.
Like, this
affected you, this
affected our kids,
this affected
everybody, not
just me.
And also then
when we start
unpacking
and really
getting into our
own traumas,
what's considered
trauma or
conditioning,
subconscious
patterns,
avoidant
behaviors,
attachment
styles, trauma
bonding,
codependency,
you blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
And then we're
like, oh shit.
Yeah, but he was
willing to unpack
that with you.
So I think it
takes, I think it
only works
if both people
are willing to
look in the
mirror and say,
okay, I gotta
unpack my shit if
I'm gonna save my
marriage,
if I'm gonna save
this
relationship.
And it has to
stop with this is
you, this is you,
this is you.
But it sounds
like you also,
you had a lot
going on in
that moment.
You had the
betrayal of your
sister you were
close to.
That was a
betrayal, loss of
trust, right?
That's a loss.
That's huge.
And then you also
kind of
went no contact
in a way to save
your
marriage too,
because you had
to kill yourself
in order to save
your marriage.
Yeah, and to be a
better mother to
my parents.
You know, when
you're surrounded
by dysfunction
like that
and
narcissistic abuse,
and I don't think
that people talk
about it enough,
what happens to
the brain and how
you're a
amygdala,
like I can't
remember it.
It's either
shrinks
or swells.
I mean, this is
how like deep
into the brain,
psychological
abuse really
affects people
and how people
just lose
their shit.
They walk around
full of rage and
completely
dysregulated.
And they think
that you're the
problem.
You're the toxic
one and reactive
abuse, right?
And that takes a
long time when,
you know,
you've been, you
don't go no
contact
for 47 years.
So think about
the wiring of
your brain, the
swelling,
and also your
prefrontal
lobe, like,
stops operating,
like, I mean,
you're like,
if you look at,
and there's just
more and more
research
that's coming out
about what this
kind of
abuse does
to your brain and
your body.
And it's, and it,
every time I hear
a little snippets
of it, I'm like,
I can't, I can't
even hear any
more of it.
You know
what I mean?
Because it's just
horrifying.
It is, and it's
overwhelming.
I mean, did you,
so you went no
contact at 47.
Yeah.
And you're 53.
I'm bad at math,
but is that
six years?
Good job.
In those six
years, have you
physically
seen a change
in yourself as
your nervous
system has
regulated?
Yeah, a hundred
percent.
I mean, my, so
like, even
right now,
like, on being on
this here with
you, like,
you know,
I said I was a little nervous.
And I talk about,
I had a
really bad,
and I still have
it a little bit,
I have a
head tremor
where like, I
would
twitch like this
when I was very
heightened
and upset.
And so that, the
psychological
damage
that started like
right after my
father
passed away
and the abuse
like really
ramped up.
And it just got
worse and worse
and worse.
This like
twitching, I
wasn't even
conscious to it.
I didn't even
know it was
happening.
And that's how
dysregulated and
what happens to
the body
when you're
living in this
severe of a
situation,
you're not even
alert to it.
You're just like,
oh, I just have
this new twitch.
Like, no, you are
psychologically
like
physically damaged
from
narcissistic abuse.
What's dyslexia's
amount of burn?
Yeah, 100% and it
all lives
in the body
and the body
remembers, right?
So, it
keeps the score.
So it's like,
when you, so like
when I, for
example,
when I read, the
body keeps
the score,
which has been a
huge influence,
you know,
that was like my first one.
So I read two books, the body keeps
the score that
was more
about Toronto
related to
my father.
And then I read
Out of the Fog by
Dana Morningstar,
which is about
narcissistic
abuse.
And so when I
started going
through,
like to heal
myself, right?
To learn more
plus
counselor plus,
and I added a
layer of
a mentor.
I mean, I was
just like, I
can't stand
myself anymore.
Like I just need,
I need like peace and calm and harmony
in my life all
the time in order
to heal.
And so, I mean,
my nervous system
was shot, shot.
But there's been
a huge change.
I mean, I am not
reactive, you
know, to
anything.
And that's what I
talk about a lot
in my book
is how to get to
that
place, right?
And nervous system work and, you know,
in nervous system
work and
meditations,
and it's just
can't be any
specific, any
random
meditations.
Like I really
drill down in
these things in
my courses
because of where
you have to
understand
where your
nervous system
state is.
You can't just
lay down and take
and do
meditation.
So there's just,
there's so
many things
that are involved
with healing, but
at the same time,
like it's, I did
it in hyper
speed, I think.
I'm not gonna
edit your book.
Do you talk about
that in
your book?
Where you, how to
identify where
your nervous,
the state of your
nervous system?
I don't, I talk
about it in my
free course.
It's called
resurrect the
nervous system.
And so I was able
to, a somatic
therapist that I,
I reached out to
her because I
found this chart
on how to
identify where
you are, right?
That she made,
she designed, and
I got permission
from her.
Her name is Ruby
Jo Walker.
Thank you, Ruby.
So grateful for
you if you're
listening.
Little
plug for her.
But anyways, so,
and I mean, you
can Google
this too.
You can Google
this, this chart,
but it's
really great
because it shows
you like your
physical
symptoms,
like what's
happening with
your mood, your
emotions,
and so on
and so forth.
And it's like a
bell curve goes
up and it
goes down.
And then like red
is like
down or no,
at the bottom is
like, you know,
you're regulated
up here.
It's like you're
in fight or
flight up here.
It's like you're
in freeze, like
complete
collapse.
And then it gives
you each of your
physical symptoms
along the way.
And, but as far
as like
meditations and
things that,
I don't think
that enough
people, you know,
you read like,
how do you,
whatever, calm
yourself,
you coerce
all levels.
I'm in menopause.
I need to
lower those.
Okay, meditate.
Okay, but they
don't talk about
exactly how to
meditate.
And these are
things like I
read in depth.
And I know
because I've
experienced
it myself
in regards to
meditation is
that your
brain waves
operate in
different states
and, you know,
high beta, beta,
alpha, and theta,
like low theta.
Like, so when
you're sleeping,
you're in
like theta,
in a dream state,
when you're
regulated,
you're in alpha
and then beta,
high beta.
And if your
nervous system is
in, if you're
depressed,
let's say you're
depressed, you're
more in theta.
Your brain waves
have slowed down.
You're alpha,
you're operating
at a good,
healthy level.
You're in high
beta, you're
anxious.
So if you put on
a meditation,
where your
nervous system is
dysregulated,
and you put on
something that's
the
vibration levels,
match your brain
waves and
hurts, right?
So you put
something on,
it's
already high beta.
Do you think
that's going to
soothe your
nervous system?
So that's what
like people just
like randomly put
out there
like, oh, just
meditate.
Like there's more
involved to
meditating
than that.
And people, you
know, I think I
ripped off
because I know
enough people
talk about that
it matters
what, when you
enter the
meditation,
where your
nervous system
state is,
where your brain
waves are,
and how to get
yourself back
into alpha
and to bring you
back to center.
And so I talk
about
these things
in the resurrect
your nervous
system course,
which is free.
And also how
important it is
to recognize,
to bring
self-awareness to
where you are
so that you're
not further
agitating
and already
dysregulated.
I don't know why
meditation is not
working for me.
No, it's not
working for you
because you don't
know what nervous
state you're in
and you're
probably
agitating your
nervous system
even further.
This makes
such sense.
And you are the
first person that
I've heard talk
about this.
I haven't heard
any, and I'm
talking about on
social media.
I know people
have, but it's
not out there
because I have
tried to meditate
because I can't
tell you how
many people
have talked about
meditation.
And I think it's
an amazingly
effective tool,
obviously.
And I think it's
something that
especially
all of us
Gen Xers should
be using,
but what you're
talking about
is actually
giving people
blueprint on how
to start
and to do it with
knowledge of
yourself
and what type of
meditation you
should use
depending on
where your
nervous
system is,
makes
perfect sense.
But I've never
heard anyone talk
about
that before.
That's amazing.
It's a big deal.
And I put it
together with,
well, because I
started
breaking down
like the courses
that I offer.
So I have
the book,
but also I have
several courses
that I offer
and how I
basically
scripted how the
things that I did
from my own
healing journey
and scripted it
because I'm like,
therapy takes a
lot of time.
A lot of people
can heal a lot of
things all on
their own
if they have the
right guide,
somebody that's
been through it.
And maybe there's
a stigma,
they don't want
to go to sit with
a therapist or a
counselor
they don't have
the time, they
don't want to,
any of
those things.
So to me, it's,
there's so many
things
that I did too
that cross all
spectrums,
like, okay,
so when you go
through the kind
of abuse
that I've gone
through,
like, okay,
well then
everything that
she has to say
doesn't apply to
me because I
haven't
gone through
what she's gone
through.
That's not the
case because the
nervous system
still works
the same for
everybody.
And so, in that
sense, so there's
so much knowledge
that I've
unpacked in
regards to
meditations,
why certain ones
work better, why
certain
ones don't,
and why you have
to be so
intentional
if you're going
to go down that
meditative
journey.
I mean, for me,
the safest
spot is to,
I mean, and
there's only one,
if you go
onto YouTube
and you say alpha
meditation, which
is a link,
I have a link
into the course
to it onto
YouTube,
but it's the, the
Silva
visualization
meditation.
And it is, it's a
visualization
and the,
the sound is all
to regulate,
in hertz to
regulate your
nervous system.
And it's, and
there's a
visualization
component to it,
which is
huge as well.
So, and I've done
that one
and it's free.
I've done
that one.
I can't even tell
you how
many times,
but when I need
to change
things up,
the other thing
that for me was
sound bath.
And I've actually
become a sound
bath healer.
So I play sound
baths, you know,
like the crystal
bowls with the
chakras.
Yeah, is that
where I'll come
across them on
social media
where they're
playing the, ooh,
like that?
Yeah. I
love that.
I love that.
Well, it's
like a bowl.
I didn't know
there were
crystal bowls, but
there's bowls.
And what's the
instrument called
that you use to
go around
the bowl?
Just, I
don't know.
I'm like totally
blanking.
It's like a,
it's like a,
It's like a
stick, but
it's not.
And they, I can't
remember that
anymore.
It's different
frequencies that
are coming up.
Different frequencies,
yeah.
So the bowls are
tuned into the
432 hertz,
which, and
there's big like
discussion of
around this,
like whether it's
like the earth's
resonance
or is 432 hertz,
and it's aligned
to that.
So if you're into
grounding and
touching
the earth
and or you're
surrounding
yourself with
sound baths,
and sound and
vibration.
And I think
that's why Gen X
loves
music so much
because it feels
so good in
your body
if it's the right
song, right?
Depending on
where your
nervous
system is,
but if you're
trying to
regulate and
you're super
heightened,
you bring
yourself down and
you lay down into
a sound bath.
I mean, you are
being immersed by
vibration
and music.
And it's just
such a beautiful
experience.
I know it
was for me.
And then bump it
up one more and
do breath work
with that.
Hmm.
That sounds
like a high.
Yeah, it is.
It sounds
amazing.
And would that
be, if you bring
breath
work into it,
does that bring
in somatic
healing?
Cause it's
physically, like
somatic healing,
do you need to be
jumping, moving
to have somatic
healing?
Okay.
Cause I know when
I dance and
stuff, I'm like,
oh, I feel like
I'm in somatic
healing
right now.
Like there's no
question.
Absolutely.
Yeah,
yeah, for sure.
But I didn't know
if somatic
healing
was tied to,
you have to be
kind of bouncing
or moving in
order to.
No, no.
And I, you know,
like a lot of my
healing
took place
laying on in my
bed, flat,
meditations,
sound baths.
Yes, I did yoga,
of course,
touching grass
all the time,
hugging trees,
sunshine, all of
those things.
And I mean,
people laugh,
but I wasn't
going to go on to
a whole,
you know,
pile of pills
that I could have
possibly
ended up on.
That wasn't me.
I was on
antidepressants
when I was in my
thirties
after I had my
second daughter,
that it was
horrible.
And then I was on
anti-anxiety
medicine
after my, when my
father went into
the hospital
and after
all of that,
the shit that was
going on with my
mother and
my sister,
I went on to
anti-anxiety
medicine
just to shut
myself up, like,
because
it was so,
and to
numb myself.
I had to be
physically numb,
like just
numbed out,
like during the
whole thing.
And, but, and
that's another
thing as a friend
of mine,
actually he was
on, so the
anxiety medicine
that I was on
was also
anti-seizure
medicine.
So coming off of
those medicines,
the tremors that
I have are part
of that.
Also, when I got
into a car,
I felt like I was
going to die if I
wasn't driving.
Coming off of
these meds are
serious.
The side effects
are no joke.
And I thought I
was just crazy
for a long time.
And then all of a
sudden I ran into
somebody
that had just
come off this
very similar
medication
and was
experiencing the
same thing
when they were in
cars, in
vehicles.
I have read
someone who on
Facebook,
like someone I
knew in high
school that
talked about that
going off, it was
something with
being in a car
and not driving.
Were they Benzos?
Yeah, coming off
of Benzos. Benzos
diasophines?
What is
that though?
Did you ever find
out an answer
as to why it
triggered that
reaction
in a car?
I don't know.
I just know that
I have one friend
that I finally
feel validated.
I'm like, oh my
God, that
happened to you.
We actually
traveled together
to a friend's
memorial service
and we were going
long distance and
he was in the
back seat.
And suddenly this
whole thing came
up for him.
He was like, had
to sit like this.
He was like, it's
not you guys,
it's me.
I'm having this
anxiety
attack almost,
but it's really
the side effect
of coming off of
this medicine.
And I had the
same thing.
I would be on the
anxiety
medication
in the car.
My husband would
be driving and I
would be like,
and I don't mean
the normal
wifey thing.
I mean, I was
like, oh my God.
Thinking
literally we were
about to crash.
Yeah. And we
weren't.
Your perception
is really off how
close you are
and how far away,
you know
what I mean?
It's very off.
Well, they
totally rewire
your brain.
100%.
And they get in
there deep.
Are these
the benzos?
Yeah. You're on
benzos, right?
I'm pretty sure
it was a little
blue pill.
I think they're
all benzos.
And I think we
are gonna do an
episode on this,
but they're
giving these to
children
and then it's
rewiring
their brains
from the time
they start giving
them to them.
And a lot of
school shooters,
they find are on benzos. School
shooters
are on benzos.
Oh, 100%.
Yeah. You
know, 100%.
So, I mean,
you're talking to
somebody
that isn't very
keen on
big pharma
or anything to do
with medications,
especially
for kids.
I've watched kids
go on medications
and their
personalities
change.
I've watched them
go on medications
and they're
picking their
hair out.
I've watched
them, they're
picking
their skin.
Their complete
personality
change,
they're not the
same kid.
And so that
alone, for me
personally,
I've been against
it, right?
I'm like, "Oh, I
don't really
wanna go on
medication.
I don't wanna go
on to anything
that's going to
rewire my brain,
that's going to
affect me
in a way
that I have to be
on something for
the rest
of my life.
Like we're so
young, like I'm
not going on
something
that I need to
take every
single day.
Have you brought
music to your
classrooms?
Yeah, we dance
every day.
What do you, I'll
just a quick
sidebar.
I remember when
we had our two
kids in the cars
and if it was
chaos in the car,
if I threw on the
Grateful Dead,
not even joking,
within a minute,
everything's
calm.
So to go to your
frequency thing,
it's got me
thinking, I'm
technical,
I like to think
of this
nerdy stuff.
I'm gonna look at
the frequency of the
Grateful Dead.
But I'm curious,
have you ever--
Yeah, you gotta
tell me
what it is.
I wanna do that
too, oh my God.
And Billy
Strings, that
might be--
Maybe the same
frequency.
Yeah, that
might be,
because I know
for us, the dead
is an addiction
in that how it
makes us feel,
especially going
to live
shows, right?
Yes.
Or being
cover bands,
you still have
the same energy
in the crowd.
You still have
the same, you
dance the same,
even if it's a
cover band.
And Billy
Strings, it's
that same,
it's the same
Grateful Dead
crowd energy.
If you went to
Billy Strings
concert,
you would feel
like you're
amongst
dead heads.
I don't know how
to explain it.
And dancing and
twirl, there's
twirlers,
all that
type of stuff.
So I wonder about
the frequency.
Yeah, that's got
me thinking.
That's why I say
the kids, we'd
have chaos.
The kids would be
crying or
fighting,
whatever.
They're on a
Grateful Dead.
It's true.
And they would
just chill within
a minute.
It's true.
So we have like,
and so I put on,
I don't know if
you know what
Lo-fi is.
It's like, you
can find it on,
it's to
regulate, like,
Binaireal Beats
and to regulate.
So a lot of times
when the kids are
working
independently,
I put like almost
every day.
There's music in
the classroom all
the time.
I wouldn't be
able to survive
without it.
(laughs) I was gonna ask
you, as far as
the death of
your father,
because I know I
went through my
own thing
with the death of
my father,
but for
you, was it,
was part of the
trauma of that,
that you were
never
going to get
the, what you
needed from him.
You were never
going to get the
recognition
of what he
did to you.
You're never
going to get the
validation.
You're never
going to get the
apology.
You were never
going to get the
unconditional
love.
So you were
losing
your father,
but then you were
also losing that
hope and dream
that someday you
were going to get
that
closure with him.
No, I haven't
thought about it
like that,
but to me, so I
had a very,
as violent as my
father wasn't as
fucked up
as he was,
I had the closest
relationship out
of my siblings
with him.
I was very
nurturing to him.
Like he, my
parents would
have fights like
crazy fights,
and my mother
would be
at my house,
and I had a baby
at the time,
and she's like,
oh, he's
threatening
with a gun
and these things
and that thing.
And I'm like, so
I would be the
one that
would go to him
and look at him
and sit him down
and say,
you're going to
die a very
lonely man
if you don't get
some help.
You can't keep
doing this.
Like we love you,
but you can't
keep doing
this shit.
Mom's not coming
to my house to
live with me.
This is her home.
You can't be
scaring the shit
out of her.
And so he, like
when he
went to the VA,
he got
into the VA,
he went into an
in-house program
for six weeks.
He finally got
the recognition,
like his unit
finally got the
recognition that
they deserve.
I was very
supportive of my
father and
understanding.
But at the
same time,
I didn't
understand while
he was alive,
how all of his
actions had done,
how much it had
impacted me in
such a
negative way.
Like I still had
that love,
daughter,
father, love,
was very
deep for him,
and was very
understanding to
a point.
I had boundaries
too though.
My sisters didn't,
where he would
call me up
and be like,
where did I put
the goddamn
blah, blah?
He'd blend stuff
out and then he'd
think that I,
and I gave it
back and then he
didn't remember,
he would be
streaming and I
would be like,
fuck you.
Like I wouldn't
take that
call, right?
Like I would
just, and my
sisters would
take it.
You know
what I mean?
But I mean, at
the end,
when I knew he
was dying when he
got his
diagnosis,
the way that it
was delivered to
me by my sister
and my mother was
horrible,
to say the least,
the way I was
treated in the
hospital
right after,
they were like,
oh well,
my oldest
sister's
daughters,
my two nieces
were there that
were like
21, 2019,
something like
that, they were
kept it
from them.
So we all had to
walk on
eggshells.
We couldn't talk
about it.
And after they
dumped this news
that he has stage
four lung
cancer on me,
they said, go
clean
yourself up.
Like leave the
hospital,
cover up that
you've
been crying,
and because these
two over here
don't know.
Oh my God.
I had to leave
the hospital and
go buy makeup
and fake the fact
that I
just found out
that my father
had stage four
lung cancer.
And so
that was the,
and because I had,
they set it up
like, it was so
fucked up.
I can't
even tell you.
It is, it's so
very, very.
Suppression,
suppression.
Yeah, it's just
so fucked up.
Like before that,
now I knew that
something
was coming.
He had gone into
the hospital.
So then
my mother,
and said to them
telling me,
they just kept
saying, oh, we
don't know.
The doctors are
testing, doing
more tests.
They knew, and
they kept
it from me.
And they were
trying to handle
it in this like,
fucked up way.
And then they
were like, okay,
Michael,
we're gonna have
you, my husband,
we're gonna have
you pick
Denise up.
No, we're gonna
drop you off at
Denise's work.
So then you can
get in the car
with her.
And then you can
go to the
hospital
to deliver
some news.
Okay, well, are
you a
fucking idiot?
Like, this is how
you do that.
This is how they
set this whole
thing up to
begin with.
From the very
beginning, while
I had high
anxiety,
I'm gonna fucking
stop at a bar and
have a drink.
Because I know
I'm about to
receive some
horrible news.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we get
something to eat.
We both
have a drink.
We walk in.
Hello, blah,
blah, blah.
Come over into
this room across
the hallway.
It's delivered
the news.
Here it is.
He has tumors
this big,
metastasized.
They're
everywhere.
We don't
know how long.
Now go, stop
crying, get your
ass out of here,
go get some
makeup, and then
you can come back
and act like
nothing happened.
It's all about
control.
It's all about
control and
almost like a
puppet master.
Like taking any
situation and
seeing how far
they can control
the situation.
Because it's
unnecessary.
It's like
unnecessary
things.
But it's, I still
think it ties
back to some
narcissism.
Oh, 100%.
Totally.
Even in that
situation.
Even in that
situation.
Like how
horrible.
Well, and it was
funny because my
husband,
like I said,
he had just lost
his dad eight
months
before that.
So we had been
with his family
and it was
complete
opposite.
Like his dad was
fighting
lymphoma.
So he had been
battling
for 10 years.
And so like every
three years, he
would have
to go through
all the radiation
and all of the
treatments.
And then
he was good.
And then
he was good.
He was good until
he wasn't.
And so we were
like with his
family and that
they were
so kind, so
sweet, so
communicative,
so compassionate
to one another.
And then he was
taking turns.
Like everybody
was involved.
It was beautiful.
I was like, and
then I get with--
Yeah, you knew
how it could be.
Right.
Yeah.
And my husband,
my poor husband
is sitting
there like,
who also loved my
dad, you know,
was like--
Yeah, yeah.
What's
going on here?
Yeah, but I mean,
did your husband
have, did he,
was that really
the eye-opening
moment for him
where he really
saw how
bad it was,
how he handled
your
father's death,
or had he already
seen really
bad stuff,
or was that
that moment?
It was at
that moment.
I mean, there
was, you know,
there was
the, like,
also he only has
a brother, he has
no sisters.
So he has no
experience
with like,
other than his
ex, like, but
they were very
toxic too.
Like my family
was very
dysfunctional,
just like
his exes.
And so, you know,
and we've always
talked
about that.
Like, why do you
choose women like
this, Michael?
They've been
through this
serious trauma.
So, you know, we
had to
unpack that.
I'm sure,
I'm sure.
But going back,
it's like--
Yeah, Brian
always says,
"DAMNAGE GOODS."
He likes
damage goods.
The rescuer, the
rescuer, right?
Exactly, so,
okay, so your
father
passes away,
and then it
triggers this
nightmare
situation
with your mom for
the next, what,
six years?
Four years. Four years.
And you and your
husband at the
same time,
then you and your
husband reach a
point where
you're like,
"We better make a
change,"
or, "This
marriage isn't
gonna make it."
And you go no
contact.
And it sounds
like you started
your real
healing journey
at that
point, right?
With all the
steps you
were taking.
Is that also when
you started
your course?
Or how long from
the time you went
no contact
and started your
healing journey
to when you
created
your course?
So I believe it
was because the
book coincided
with the courses.
So I started
probably a
year after.
I wanna
say a year--
After going no
contact?
No, it was two
years, it was two
years, for sure,
if not more,
because I started
on the
book first.
I started on the
book first,
and then I
started creating
after the book
and talking with
my editor, my
publisher,
they were like,
they were more
about bringing
more information
because quickly,
because I didn't
want a
novel like this,
like who's gonna
buy it, who's
gonna read that?
And so they
started
advising me,
maybe you should
be working on
some courses
just to get
people, get
information out
there a
lot faster
and for people to
be able to
actually
participate in,
like for
subconscious
healing, right?
The subconscious
mind and how I
did that,
who I listened
to, who are the
people that,
what books I
read, all of that
stuff, right?
Like you unpack
all of that stuff
into a course
and it's in 45
minutes and damn,
when you walk
away with it,
you're
like, holy shit.
(laughs) That's really
smart, I'm sorry,
go ahead.
I was just gonna
say, you can read
your book
and then apply it
through
your course.
It sounds like
it's connected.
Vice versa, it is.
Oh, they are,
yeah, they're all
connected.
So like, for
example, let me
just open
up the book,
it's right here,
just so I can
hear it as
reference.
And I'm
gonna ask too,
what inspired you
to write "The
Valor of
Generation X"?
First, I was my
counselor,
and then I
started
thinking about,
you know, valor
in the sense of
what courage
and bravery
means in the face
of battle.
And of course,
it's
connected to my dad.
But at the same
time, I'm like,
what about Gen X
and their
battles?
And what about
their valor?
And what about
their courage
of all of the
things that we've
survived?
And I just really
started thinking
about it
and so
first it was,
it was gonna be
like my valor,
your valor,
something
like that.
And then I was
like, holy shit,
no, this is
generational.
This is all of
us, right?
I'm like,
this is Gen X,
it's bigger than
just what I've
experienced,
this is the
generational
thing
going on here.
And so then I
took it from my
valor,
your valor,
to the valor of
Generation X.
That's how that
came to be.
But in regards to
the courses,
so like each
chapter coincides
basically
as like a cliff
note version of
the course,
courses.
So for example,
the first
chapter one
is "Comfortably
Numb Resurrect
the Nervous
System."
I start the book
off flatly
talking
about that
when you're on a
healing journey,
that's the
main work.
Then the
next one,
chapter is
"Subconscious
Behavior Patterns
and
Conditioning."
I have two
separate courses
for those.
So one is
"Subconscious
Behavioral
Patterns,"
how do I
identify them?
And then
conditioning and
learning about
your child,
that's more of
like inner child,
or yeah, your
inner child's
healing.
Is conditioning.
Subconscious is
like all the way
from now,
from the
beginning
till now,
and like where
you got your
beliefs from
and digging deep
into them.
And understanding
that they were
never yours to
begin with.
And so you can
rebuild your
subconscious any
way you want
because it's
malleable,
everything's
malleable.
Do you touch on
the concept,
and I can't
remember the
name of it,
but how your
trauma has
been passed,
you were actually
carrying trauma
from
generations before.
Like you could be
carrying your
grandmother's
trauma
and your great
grandmother's
trauma.
Yeah, that's-
I can't
remember though.
Oh, the
name for it?
Like, oh, I don't
know what that is
called either.
There is a name
for it, but do
you know
what I mean?
How weird-
Yes, I know
exactly
what you mean,
and how-
You're basically carrying it.
Epigenics.
What's that?
Was it
apiagenics?
Is that what you're
talking about?
Yes, yes.
Yeah, yes.
So-
Epigenics.
Epigenics.
Epigenics.
I'm like, I think
I'm saying
it wrong.
Yes.
I might be too,
but it's that.
Yes.
Yes, it's
that one.
I know what
you're talking
about for sure.
Yes, so, and I
mean, it's in
your
cells, your DNA.
Yeah.
And so, you know,
for when we talk
about women
and being burned
at the
stake, you know,
and things
like that,
where some
people, I
believe, are
still
carrying those,
that
trauma, 100%.
Totally, and how
many women have
been raped?
Yeah.
It's just the
beginning of
time, or
sexually abused,
or beaten, you
know, I mean-
It's still
going on.
The pain that-
To this day.
Yes, yes.
It's a trip.
What do you-
Could go too long to put on that.
You said the
subconscious is
not your own.
It's malleable.
Well, the
subconscious, no,
I didn't say it's
not your own.
No, okay, so let
me reword it.
So, subconscious
thoughts.
When we're from
birth to eight
years old,
you have gained
like the majority
of your
subconscious
thoughts, your
beliefs.
Where do your
beliefs
come from?
Who you were
raised by, from
society, the
cultural norms,
so on and so
forth, right?
So, this is all
built into your
subconscious.
So, you go
through life,
you're only 95,
you live your
life 95% from
your
subconscious,
five from your
consciousness,
okay?
Your nervous
system is
connected to your
subconscious,
mostly, because
that's where you
operate from.
So, you got this
little 5% of your
awareness,
so to speak,
and how you're
going to react
and operate
within the world,
but you're going
to do it through
the subconscious.
So, most
of the time.
So, that's why,
even if you go on
to chat GTP,
or any of those
AI things and ask
how much of
the world's
actually awake,
and has
self-awareness,
it's like 1%,
it's like 1%.
Like, you learn
only a couple
things about
yourself,
and then you
think, okay,
that's it,
I'm healed,
like I'm good, I
can move on.
But when we're
talking about the
generational
through women,
through the DNA,
through trauma,
through
all of it,
and then all of a
sudden, say
you're in a
situation,
and your nervous
system, you get
into a car
crash, okay?
This is 100%
subconscious
survival, right?
So, some people
are able
to be calm,
they can operate
quickly, smart,
other people lose
their shit, they
come undone,
they don't know
how to function
in a high stress
situation.
And so, it's
completely 100%
subconscious.
So, like in my
book, I talk
about
stupid shit,
like even this
thing,
like my dad.
So, my dad always
was running out
the door, late,
he couldn't find
his keys, his
glasses, none of
his shit,
was ever, I put
it right here, it
was right here,
what the fuck,
he'd be screaming
and yelling,
losing his shit,
and we're all
like, all right.
And so,
eventually he
would
leave, right?
But like he upset
the entire house
before he
would leave.
Yeah. And so,
I started
realizing I had
this pattern.
I was like, all
of us, the girls
would be in the
kitchen,
we would all be
getting ready,
we'd get ready
for work,
I'd have all my
shit, like
exactly where it
was
supposed to be.
And I was like,
ready to come in
there, come in
the kitchen,
they were like
making breakfast,
getting ready,
I had to get out
at the door to
get to work,
and I would like
get my stuff,
I would have to
grab this fork,
this thing, this
whatever.
And I got
agitated, so
easily agitated.
Now, it was a
small like
U-shaped kitchen,
and there's four
girls in here,
you know,
we're all,
it was a small
space for sure.
But I would lose
my shit.
Then I was like,
oh, you have to,
you girls can't
be in this area
of the kitchen
when I'm trying
to get out
the door.
Like I just felt
like super
controlling,
super
like my dad.
And like, and I
was screeching
out of the
driveway,
(imitates door creaking) you know, to get
to work.
And I was like,
holy shit,
this is a
subconscious
behavior pattern
that was learned.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
It was learned,
like I wasn't
born with that.
Yeah. Did
you say,
I'm gonna just
leave, I'm gonna
leave 10 minutes
earlier,
so I'm not
doing this.
Because you
picked up
on it, right?
And then you get
into
behavior, Maude.
Did you, or did
you just be like,
just accept that
I'll just be my
dad here?
Well, in some
moments, I'm just
my dad here.
In some moments,
like Denise,
like the girl
that wants
to be like,
hey, I feel this,
I've
recognized this,
it's not mine to
carry, is what
I'm saying.
And it wasn't
mine to
begin with.
It's not my
pattern, okay?
So it's not mine
to begin with.
So I can leave
this pattern
over there,
it doesn't
belong to me,
and I can create
a new pattern.
So, and I see
myself in the
morning,
now nobody's
here, right?
Like my girls are
gone, they're
grown up,
they're in
college, my
husband's here,
but he's
already left.
So it's just me,
just me
and myself.
So,
(laughs)
so who do I have
to be mad at?
Or to rage at, or
to, you know
what I mean?
To continue the
pattern.
The lateness,
that
organization,
I'm totally
organized.
Like I literally
do the same thing
every day,
this, pick up
that, do that,
you know
what I mean?
But the lateness
thing, that
sometimes,
it still
can work.
I'm not, I'm
never
late to work.
I'm 15 minutes, I
guess I'm
hard on myself,
I'm 15 minutes
early to work.
I want to be,
excuse me,
earlier to work.
But there's no
chaos, there's no
one here
to enjoy the
chaos that was
passed
down to me.
(laughs)
You know
what I mean?
Interesting, I
love how
you said,
that's not mine
to carry.
And then I can
let, I can put
that down and
create my own.
My mom was
always late.
So I was raised
where I was
always
late to school
and it was always
so stressful and
traumatic
because you'd
walk into the
classroom
and everyone
would turn and
look at you
and you have to
hang up your
backpack.
I played violin,
I got this
violin case,
you know, I'm in
Oregon, it's
raining,
I gotta hang up
my rain jacket.
It's the whole
thing, everyone's
staring at you.
And that builds
every day, right?
That humiliation,
I guess
that's shame.
Yep.
And I've worked
hard on this.
But for the first
half of my
adulthood, I was
always late.
But I wasn't even
conscious of it.
It was just my
learned behavior.
And then now, I'm
so much
better now,
but I still have
definitely
a moment,
but I'm more
aware of it.
But for the first
half of my life,
I wasn't even
aware of it
because--
I was the same as
you, yeah, 100%.
I was just
like that.
And then, but
then my kids, my
daughter, I know,
and I think my
older
son's the same,
but she's very
conscious about
not being late.
And my youngest
doesn't
wanna be late.
So they're
already
changing it.
And it's probably
a trauma
reaction.
They get that
from me.
To them being
late, you know,
but then you also
don't
wanna be late.
But again, that
was a
learned thing.
And I somehow at
some point made
the decision
to put it down,
but I still
haven't totally
put it down.
Because like I
said, I still
sabotage myself
sometimes.
Be careful too.
It's like the
behavior pattern
is also wired.
So, you know,
it's like, you
can put it down,
you can recognize
it, you can have
self-awareness,
but it is
also wired.
You're
wired that way.
So you're like,
you know,
so again,
I think we talked
about this about,
you know,
unraveling
something that's
been wired into
you for so long,
it takes time and
patience and
compassion and
self-empathy,
you know, like,
so you can't
just, you know,
put this down,
like, yeah, but
I'm so late
sometimes.
I still like, and
like, you know,
last like running
on the
last minute,
I got 30 seconds
before I
gotta leave.
But then typical
Gen X,
you're right.
Like I would be
hard on myself
for repeating it.
And then if other
people were hard
on me about it,
I would
automatically be
like, I
deserve that.
I deserve to be
talked to like
that because I'm
failing,
right?
And realizing I'm
breaking
something
that's been a
part of me since
I was born.
And so every time
I'm not, I
should be,
I need to
celebrate that
and give myself
grace, you know?
Yes.
But that's not,
that doesn't come
naturally
anytime.
Look at how
quickly I was
able to say that
to you, right?
Like I can say
that to you.
I say that to my
best friend, my
husband,
my girls,
like everybody
else, just give
yourself
some grace
and I'm over
here, like, can
we get it
together, Denise?
I always say that
such a thing as
I'll say,
what would I say
to my best friend
and be that way
to myself?
Yeah, but we
weren't raised to
be good to
ourselves,
especially
Gen X girls.
So, okay, so you
wrote this,
how long did it
take you to write
the book?
Three years.
I have a side
question.
Did you, well,
no, it's in line.
Did you take a
lot of the
material from the
journal,
the therapist
told you to
write, did that
feed into it?
So, I was going
to until, you
know, again,
working with an
editor and
publisher is
really important.
I could have
shared all of it.
However, I really
needed to focus
on my why.
Why was I writing
this book?
Was it because I
wanted validation
from the rest of
the world
and tell my ugly
stories
and truth?
No, not really.
I really just
want, this book
and the courses
are meant to help
other people.
So, I didn't want
to take away
from, you know,
the horror of
some of
the, you know,
of some of the
things that have
happened
in my life
for somebody that
I'm trying to
actually
help, right?
So, it's not
about, right,
it's not an
autobiography.
It's not, do I
wish sometimes
that I would
have shared
some of the deep,
like, dark stuff?
Yeah, because I
think that other
people have
experienced it
and they need to
know that they're
not alone
and how to get
out of it, how to
heal from
it, you know?
So, it's more of
like a
mentorship, like
I've been there.
Like I get you,
you know
what I mean?
Like I
understand that.
In some ways
where you maybe
tap into it,
maybe talking
like this helps,
makes you
realize,
I think there's,
I think people
will hear
some of the, what
we've
talked about
and it will
really resonate
with them
and they'll
gravitate towards
it and know that,
hey, I'm
not alone.
I went through
similar shit and
you're surviving.
Look at how, you
know, for all
intents and
purposes,
you seem to be
doing
really well.
You're helping
kids,
you're people,
you're giving
back in the form
of your book
and your courses,
but you're also a
special ed
teacher,
which to her
point is,
you know,
somewhat of an
angel on earth
helping children.
So, I do think it
could resonate.
You mean like
doing a part two
type of course
to share more of
a personal story?
Yeah, yeah.
Maybe.
I mean, my life
is like 10
times better.
I can't even tell
you quite
honestly.
I mean, it's a
hard lonely walk
sometimes,
not gonna lie,
you know, not
having my sisters
as dysfunctional
as they were.
You know, I
called myself
self
orphaned the day,
the moment that I
knew that I had
to go no contact.
It's pretty
sad, right?
But at the same
time, just being
in my hometown
and taking up,
you know, I love
one of your,
one of your
podcasts you were
talking about
women and having
hobbies,
dynamics women
don't have
hobbies.
I was like,
holy crap.
I was like,
that's so true up
until I was like,
wait a second, I
wanna tell her
because I
actually
have a hobby.
I actually have
always, so I grew
up in a town,
the town that I
grew up in that
I'm living in now
is a sailing
village.
There's sailboats
everywhere.
It's absolutely
gorgeous.
And I've always
wanted to learn
to sail.
My parents didn't
have the
kind of money,
but I hung out
with a lot of
people that did.
You know, I was
on a boat
here or there,
but when we moved
back here, that
was not my
intention.
When my husband
and I moved,
we were like just
in love
with the view.
We were like,
okay, but then
the view was like
showing us like
the next step,
which was all
these
beautiful boats.
So we joined a
yachting club.
We belong there
and we have
learned to sail.
We bought our own
boat and
we're gonna,
we're probably
gonna sail down
to where you guys
are someday.
That's awesome.
And you
have a hobby.
Yes, and I
have a hobby.
That's awesome.
I love that.
I love it.
That's amazing.
And it's amazing
that those
moments we
recognize,
that's huge for
us, right?
That's huge for
our generation.
So it's huge for
the women in our
generation.
So I'm
trying to sum up.
So the valor of
Generation
X to me,
like you just, I
feel summed
it up so well
is almost like a
mentorship in
helping
Gen X midlife
as they find
themselves again
and embark on
their healing
journey.
Would you say
that's a good way
to sum up
your book?
100%.
It's a new way,
like the, what's
the subtitle,
how the
courageous are
finding a new
path to growth
and love.
I love it.
So it's basically
like,
there's only,
there's a small
portion of this
that talks about
narcissism,
although that was
a big part
of my life.
What is also
discussed
is a lot,
I mean, I'm deep
into
spirituality,
vibrations,
that stuff.
And I don't think
that that came
along until,
you know, you go
through a sort of
a spiritual
awakening.
Like when I was,
my mentor had me
write a letter
from God,
from God
to myself.
So I had to write
a letter as if I
was God talking
to myself.
I think that was,
yeah, do
that, do that.
I can't,
that sounds,
it's too much
kindness to
give myself.
Right?
It could be all
love, right?
At 100%, it's all
love, it's 100%.
Powerful,
that's power.
Wow, that's very
powerful.
You have to be
ready to
accept that.
Right.
Yourself, yeah.
Yeah, so I mean,
you gotta think
about that
and you gotta
think on it for a
while too.
So somebody tells
you to do
this, right?
You gotta speak
as if you're God
to yourself
and how they
would speak to
you and
write a letter.
Well, I ended up
going to,
oh my God, what's
it called
when you,
like an open mic
and read
my letter.
Wow.
In like a jazz
club in Buffalo.
That's amazing.
And I mean, they
were, yeah, it
was cool.
I was like, well,
I wanna go, like
I wrote it
and like my
husband and I,
like we wrote it
when there was
like this little
like speak easy
kind of place
that like
everybody was
always reading
poetry and stuff.
And there was a
lot of cool jazz
music there.
And so like we
took, I had it on
my phone.
I took a picture
of it and it was
on my phone.
And then he was
like, come on, go
up, read
it, read it.
And I was like,
so I read it.
And I mean, the
tears, like
people were
just like,
you've been
reborn,
like, oh my God.
Oh my God.
It was crazy, it
was beautiful.
Wow, I mean, what
a moment in life.
That, what a
moment for you to
have the courage
to even get up
there and
share that.
I was so
nervous, right?
I was like, that's
the moment.
Yeah, but you did
that for
yourself.
You've come so
far, it's wild.
Yeah, you did
that for that
little girl.
Yeah.
100%.
Little girl.
I did.
There's so many
things that,
moments that I do
something
and I'm like,
where did I get
that inspiration?
And then I'm
like,
it's for her.
I did
that for her.
And it's amazing.
Self-healing just
can be so
overwhelming
sometimes.
But it's just,
it's hard to
describe
to people
when you have a
part, you are
conscious
that I just
healed, literally
healed a
part of myself.
Yeah, it's a lot.
That's so, I'm
gonna do that
when I'm ready.
I have to
be ready.
Yeah, you're
gonna have to
think on it
too, right?
Because it's
gonna linger.
It's
gonna linger.
Things are gonna
come in and out.
Like it took me
probably two
months before I
wrote it.
Yeah, was this
after going no
contact?
Yeah, this was
after a full year
of no contact
and probably then
some like two,
three,
four months.
When my mentor
had said that you
wanted me
to write
a letter from God
to myself and I
was like, okay.
And so I thought
on it for
a while,
but yeah, it was
a very
beautiful thing.
And I think even
at this time,
it's been
six years
since I wrote the
letter five or
six, I think.
And so I think
it's time to like
write another one
to myself, right?
It's a great
practice.
It's a wonderful
practice.
I'm gonna
actually share
that with my
children too.
Absolutely. At
some point in
their lives.
I thank you for
sharing that
because I think
that's a
beautiful tool.
GenX has so many
tools in their
toolbox,
so many of them
are
disassociating,
drinking,
sarcasm,
self-deprecating,
all that.
It's just like
the-- Oh yeah,
the self-deprecating
stuff that makes
me like
don't talk.
So nice to have a
positive one.
Do you think, I'm
big about
sometimes you
have to remove
people from your
life in order to
make space
for the positive
people that are
supposed
to be there
or the positive
experiences
you're supposed
to be living.
And as long as
you keep certain
people in
your life,
they're blocking
that energy from
entering
the positive
energy or where
you're
supposed to be.
Do you-- A lot.
You know, I--
Going no contact,
has it opened up
the space for you
of all these new
positive things?
Well, it
really has.
You know, energy
doesn't lie.
And you know,
being very
spiritual
in the sense of
energy and
you know,
when you come out
of such trauma,
your intuition
starts working
again, right?
Not everything's
a trauma
response.
And so you're
very intuitive.
And so it's been
extremely
healing.
I just, sometimes
I think about
right now,
what's going on
is that I
just hear
a lot of
estrangement
happening.
And I think that
there's too much,
like people are
traumatized
making
everything trauma.
Like, I mean, and
they're,
so they're taking
things too far
for going no
contact.
So I'm careful
about answering
that question
because I don't
think it's that
cut and dry.
And like, oh, you
pissed me off.
Well, fuck you, I
don't want you
around my energy.
Right. You know
what I mean?
That's one
thing. Yeah.
Like, I mean, if
we're talking
about
repeated abuse,
absolutely, if
we're
talking about,
I don't agree
with you,
or maybe I just
don't like you,
you know, those
are other things.
But when we're
talking
about family,
as long as
it's healthy
and there's a
healthy
disagreements and
you know,
then I don't
think that
because,
you know,
something bothers
you or rubs you
the wrong way.
You know, I just
think there's a
lot of like
this cutting off
going on.
And I do feel
that for my own
survival
that I needed to
do that.
I should have
done it years
before, right?
But I just feel
like there needs
to be a
lot of like
focus on conflict
resolutions
among people.
And I am very
protective
of my energy.
I like to go out
and socialize.
I know when
somebody walks
into my space, I
can feel it.
Like that's how
now sensitive my
I am, right?
I'm not so numb.
I'm not
shut down.
I'm not in a
hypervigilant or
disassociated
state.
I'm in a
good vibe.
I have great
energy now.
Like I feel it.
I'm intentional
about my energy.
And I know that I
can also bring
bad energy to a
place too.
So, but I will
definitely, if
there's
bad energy
so to speak in my
circle,
in my vibe,
in my vibrational
circle, I'm out.
Doesn't mean that
I don't like
them, but I do
feel it.
I do pick up on
it and I do pick
up on bad energy.
And I feel like
the more that you
heal something,
the more you are
energetically,
you are
more in tuned.
You are more in
tune to
your body.
You are more in
tune to
vibrations
and energies
outside of you.
100%. I have a
question.
100%. Yeah, I
totally agree.
One thing that's
snagging me is
since you've had
no contact
and you're more
in tune,
then you're
probably healed
so many things.
Do you think you
could go
back to contact
and handle it
from a different
perspective
and maybe manage
it better?
Not that it was
yours to manage
it previously,
but you know
what I mean?
Like deal with it
and let
it back in
and not have it
be so impactful.
And is there any
interest in that?
So, that's a
tough one because
narcissistic
abuse is
very real
and I just feel
like I'm in such
a better place
that unless I
understood that
the rest
of my family
had gone into
some kind of
counseling or
something,
I mean, I just
like to go
straight back
to like pick up
where we left off
and there's no
resolution or no
conversation
because this
would just
function
families too.
They pretend that
it didn't happen.
And I'm not
interested
in that.
So, I'm
interested in
actually having
real
conversations
again.
And I wax and
wane, like it's
the holidays,
like I want my
family
around me, right?
And other times
I'm like,
fuck no.
The answer to
that question is
fuck no.
Like I've given
47 years
of my life
to that fucking
mess and chaos
and I've only
been here
and in this spot,
in this
present moment,
right now for
this one second,
you know
what I mean?
And I'm doing
extremely well.
And do I wanna
fuck with that?
No.
Do I want to have
my sisters back
in my life?
Yeah.
Do I understand
my mother's story
at 16 years old?
Getting pregnant,
you're getting
married.
My mother was a
family scapegoat.
She was an
embarrassment to
their family.
You imagine
during that
time period,
I see everything,
I see how she
became who
she became.
I don't know as
far as my older
sister, who was,
you know,
to me, she's
equally abused.
The golden
children
aren't like,
it's a
psychological
game and warfare.
And so, she's a little bit of a, and so she's
equally abused.
So, I mean, I
would love to see
my family
back
together again.
I just don't know
if I would right
now is the
time, right?
Like I probably
need another
four years.
Well, also if
they're not
reaching out
in some healthy
way and a
story of,
I've gone through
this journey and
I apologize
and yeah, shit
was fucked up.
Maybe their own,
if they did their
own work
and they came
back with
some proof,
maybe that makes
more sense,
but for you to go
back makes
no sense.
Right, and that's
the other thing.
You know, my
mother knows
where I am.
She has never
written me
a letter.
She, you just
Google my name.
Like my address
pops right up.
And there's
people from my
extended family
watching
and lurking that
like my,
you know, I
advertised
my book.
I was honest
about when I
started really
unpacking
and started
discussing
narcissistic
abuse
specifically.
And they all
knew, like
they saw it,
like family
members, you know
what I mean?
They all saw it,
like she knows
how to get
ahold of me.
She never, she
was trying to
reach my youngest
daughter
through my niece.
So like my mother
was trying to get
my niece
to talk to my
daughter, my
youngest.
And I cut
that off.
The doors are
open for my
daughters too.
After they turned
18, I said,
if you want to
talk to anybody
in the family
and it was
never there,
they were always
allowed to talk
to their cousins.
Yeah, yeah.
I never tried to,
you know, say you
can't
talk to them
or anything
like that.
I mean, obviously
we weren't going
to family
gatherings,
but that they, I
was like, you
know, you keep
that bond.
Yeah.
And without
talking about me,
your life isn't
only about me.
Like talk about
yourself, talk
about the things
you're doing,
their interests,
so on and
so forth.
Keep that
connection.
But they
really didn't.
You know, when I
said to them at
the age of 18,
I said, you're
welcome to
contact your
grandmother
and your aunts.
Like this is my
experience.
Like, you know,
maybe you'll have
a different one.
I don't know what
to say, but you
know what I mean?
But it has, I do
go back
and forth.
It's a funny
question
that you asked,
but you know, I
do believe in
forgiveness,
but I also, and I
have forgiven.
I forgive
all the time.
Yeah, well, yeah,
go ahead,
I'm sorry.
No, but
forgiveness
is for me.
Is that what
you're
going to say?
Yes.
Yeah, forgiveness
is for me.
Yeah, it's
a choice.
And I think when
you forgive
somebody who's
abused you,
it's a choice you
make every day.
It's not like I
forgive and now
it's done.
It's a conscious,
intentional
decision
you make for your
soul every day.
It has to, it's
because that is
very intentional
to forgive
someone who's
abused you,
but you're doing
it for yourself.
100%.
Yeah.
And then you forgive every day
because,
why is that?
Why isn't it just
that I forgive
you and let's
move on?
Well, because to
move on, it
has to be,
because I guess,
and maybe
it goes back,
I'm speaking for
myself, the
wiring, the
hard wiring,
and the
subconscious,
you're
acknowledging it.
You're choosing
that every day to
maintain it
because your
subconscious
would
maybe fall back
into the
old ways.
Does that
make sense?
Yeah, 100%.
And, you know,
forgiving, giving
forgiveness,
you know, there's
practice,
gratitude
practice
every day,
which I practice
in the morning
and at night
when I go to bed.
And I also send
forgiveness.
I send
forgiveness to
three people
and myself is
always first.
And that's all
that I can
do, right?
That's such a
great, that's a
great skill.
That's a great
skill though to
also forgive
yourself first
because we carry
so much shame.
When you've been
traumatized, you
carry so
much shame.
Yeah.
You know.
How much is that?
And especially if
you were made to
feel like
it was your fault
or always
your fault
or you were
always doing
something wrong,
that's hardwired.
Yeah.
That's
hardwired too.
Sorry, what were
you gonna say?
I'm just curious,
are you religious
or just more
spiritual?
I'm spiritual.
Like I don't, I
was a baptized
Catholic.
Yeah, not a
practicing
Catholic.
I haven't been
for, I don't
know, 20
years or more.
But I mean, I
read the Bible.
I listened to a
lot of
Christian music.
And I know that I
wouldn't have,
I wouldn't be
here without the
grace of God.
So that's for,
and you would
probably
interpret
that still as
religious.
No, no, I can
relate to what
she's saying.
I'm spiritual,
but I'm, I was
baptized
Catholic.
I've, I'm, I have
no interest in
the
organized aspect.
I get the utility
of it though.
And probably
because there's
been some recent
horrific events
in our sphere,
and I've seen how
it's helped
people get
through it.
And I find it
intriguing
because it's not
how I get through
it, but I do have
a spirituality.
I don't know,
it's not an
organized
religion,
but I, there's,
there's higher
purpose.
And I can
understand, I
relate to your,
your concept of
energy and
vibrations and
stuff like that.
Right?
I'm very in tune
with that.
And, but to go to
church,
any church,
and I'm not
critical of it.
It's just
not for me.
I haven't found
that
youthfulness,
but.
Yeah, no, the,
the going outside
and being
in nature
is church.
Oh, that's right.
I wonder if
that's true.
You're a
tree hugger.
Yeah.
Are you a
tree hugger?
Yes.
So is Brian.
100%
Brian is too.
If we're on
nature walks and
I see a
stoic tree,
I'll stop
and hug it.
Yeah.
Well, and they,
you know that
you're, you're
literally
recharging,
you're, you're
dumping your
negative
like energy
into the earth
and then like get
receiving
from it.
There's an energy
exchange that
happens
when you walk
barefoot, when
you're, how
you're choosing.
And if you look,
if you, there's a
movie on
YouTube called
grounding and
they talk all
about like the,
the actual
physical effects
of being
connected
to the earth,
how the earth is
helps to regulate
your
nervous system.
They do all kinds
of tests.
It's crazy.
I'm like, so
yeah, I'm more
like the, the,
the girl that
sees God sitting
off of a sailboat
or on a walk,
you know, out in
a forest or
something
like that.
That's, that's
church to me.
I don't, I don't
believe in going
to organize
religion
churches.
I don't think
that that's, you
know, I believe
in gatherings
for
spiritual things.
You know, like I
do sound bass and
that's a very
spiritual
practice that I
offer to
other people.
So, you know, I,
I just think that
I guess,
yeah, I guess
we're still
vibing, we're
vibing in the
same space.
Like I'm not,
you're not going
to see me walk
into a church.
I mean, if
somebody's
services there,
you know, for
somebody
that I really
love and I want
to go,
then I'll go.
You know
what I mean?
But it's not,
it's not part of
my daily
practice.
I do have a
practice which I
just spoke about
the forgiveness
and gratitude.
Right.
I do that every
morning
and at night.
It's part of my
mental practice.
And I think that
it's important to
have gratitude
in your life and
have that kind of
practice and to
mentally
have a mental
discussion.
You have to
change your inner
voice in order to
really, truly
honor yourself
and love yourself
and to
love others.
And unless you're
not, unless
you're practicing
it, you know,
you can't really
do that from a
place of
authenticity.
Yeah, that
makes sense.
It does.
But, and it's
funny because I
also view that
it's kind of
a form of
prayer, right?
You could, like,
it's not, you
know, the way,
the people
automatically
tie it.
Cause we're
different, right?
Cause so Brian is
like how he just
described
how he is,
I actually go to
church, I'm
Catholic.
So, and I always
talk about-
I'm counting on
her to save me.
But we talk about
it how you can be
in marriage
and come from two
different places.
It works, right?
Because both
places are coming
from a
positive place.
Cause my, I am
religious, but
it's coming from
the same
positive
spirituality as
you're
discussing.
It's not coming
from judgment or
any of that old
time crap.
Right?
Yeah, well, yeah.
I mean, so many
of us were
manipulated
through religion.
So we're going to
burn in hell.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
And so they don't
do that anymore.
Like they've
changed it cause
they realize
they're losing
people, right?
So, but it's, but
so what you're
talking about
that daily
gratitude and
that skill and
everything,
for me, I found
when I'm praying,
I'm doing that.
Cause I'm being
grateful for,
I'm recognizing
all the things
I'm grateful for.
And then I'm
asking for grace
for myself.
So it's the same
concept, if that
makes sense.
I just-
Yeah, a hundred
percent.
Direct it to God.
Cause I, that I
find guidance
through that.
I don't know how to
explain it, but-
No, I
agree with you.
And I do the
same thing.
I mean, it's not
like a, it's not
like a one way
like of,
see, I, I, it
doesn't matter to
me how anybody
practices
and I even talk
about it
in my book,
as far as like,
you need to be
connected
spiritually
in some way,
shape or form.
And it doesn't
matter how
it's done,
whether you
prefer a
organized
religion
or, you know,
you have your own
practice that you
follow
spiritually,
as long as you
are connected to
something
that's higher
than yourself,
then I think that
we're on the
right
path, right?
100%.
I would agree.
Yeah, 100%.
And you
said you do-
Just the conscience.
You do sound
baths for people.
Like, do you go
somewhere and
like almost like
a yoga studio
type concept
and people-
Yeah.
So in the summer
that I'm,
I mentioned the
Yacht Club that
we belong to on
the lawn,
right next to the
river, I offer
sound
baths there.
And so I've
taken, plus we
were sailing
and doing a lot
of fun stuff.
So I took a break
from the
sound baths.
One school kicked
in because
I was doing,
I was very busy,
a lot of work.
And now we're
moving into the
winter months
and up here,
everybody's gonna
start
hibernating again.
So I think
it's time.
I've had a couple
of people ask me
to do
sound baths.
So I'm going to
respond to them.
And yes, one is a
yoga studio.
I think it's
actually a
Pilates studio
that I'll be
doing, but it
also faces
the river.
So I'll be
doing that.
And then I had a
maid of honor
asked me
to do one
for her wedding,
the wedding
party, the
bridal party,
like a
private one.
I was like, okay,
so I gotta get
back to her too.
That is
so, so cool.
Are they Gen Z?
Are they like in
their twenties?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, I don't know
how, no, no.
I think this
girl's like 30.
So she's a young
millennial.
Those younger
generations are
just so much
healthier
than we were at
that age.
Oh my God.
They're like, so
many of them
aren't even
drinking.
Like they're just
so about wellness
and way more.
It's just a
beautiful thing.
I wanted to, on
the questionnaire
that we had you
fill out
before coming on,
one of the things
you wrote about
was the dark
night of
the soul.
What were you
referring
to on that?
So the dark night
of the soul is
when you,
you start to see
yourself, the
parts of yourself
that you're
unconscious to.
That for example,
your
spouse tells you
that you're
like this.
You do these
certain things.
You're this way
and you deny it
because your ego
is protecting you
constantly,
protecting,
putting up that,
you know,
and then you get
into, and it's
dark night
of the soul
is when you see
your shadow self.
When you're able
to pull yourself
away enough
and observe your
own behaviors
and to really
truly understand
how toxic that
you were.
Right?
And then comes
the dark night of
the soul.
It's that moment
in time that
happens
when that flash
happens and you
see yourself
doing all of
these things
and saying your
attitude, your
tone,
your, you know,
and you're like,
oh shit.
And I mean, when
I saw it, it was
like movie clips,
like just like,
do, do, do, do,
do, do, do.
And I was reading
out of the fog
and I was like,
and it was like,
what's a healthy
relationship?
What's an
unhealthy,
healthy, healthy,
not healthy.
And all of a
sudden I started,
well, I do that.
I do that too on
the
unhealthy side.
And I was like,
oh my God.
And then I just
saw it like all
at once,
everything all at
once, all at the
same time.
And in that
moment, like I
just emotionally
collapsed.
Like I was
sitting in my
bed, I'm like
propped up with
pillows, I have
my blanket on and
I'm
reading this book
and it just all
like emerges in
on you, like,
just
darkness, right?
And so I throw
the book, I'm
under the covers,
I'm bawling.
I'm like, I see
myself, I see
parts of myself.
Yeah.
And so that's
what the dark
night of
the soul is.
And I mean, you
can have many of
them throughout a
lifetime.
Yeah.
Yeah, that
makes sense.
It's probably
also one of the
first steps
towards real
healing, I would
think, right?
100%.
Cause you then
truly are being
authentic
and honest with
yourself.
So then you can
truly
start healing
what you really
need to heal.
Yeah.
I feel like in
that phase, so
it'd be
more rapid.
It's that
enlightenment,
acknowledgement,
maybe awareness
that is
going off.
Maybe I don't
know, I don't
know what out of
the fog is,
but if I think
about it, it's
you're coming out
of the fog
of murkiness type
of thing, right?
Now you've got
some clarity on
some things
you're not real
happy with.
Yeah, "Out of the
Fog" is a book by
Dana Morningstar
about
narcissistic
abuse.
And so she's
talking
about the abuse,
and then she's
talking about,
and this is why
when you've been
in such a
dysfunctional
family your
whole life,
and what's
normalized and
what feels
like home
compared to when
you're
reading a book
and when they're
telling you,
this is
narcissistic
behavior, this is
healthy behavior.
You don't leave
narcissistic
subconscious
behavior patterns
from the time
that you were
born all the way
until you're in
your 40s
without having
some of your own.
Yes, and that's
rough is when you
realize,
shit, I've done
some
narcissistic shit,
I have some
narcissistic
tendencies.
That's rough
because you know
how bad,
that how painful
that is,
and how much you
can hurt
others with.
It's one of the
most deathly
things I think
narcissism,
it's just
destroying.
I agree, I agree.
I always,
honestly, and I
think that what
you're doing
and what you're
putting out there
could also be a
guide for people,
for parents,
and a support to
them so that they
can be
better parents
by healing their
own
generational trauma.
They won't, by
becoming the
people that their
children need,
then they won't
be passing,
it's breaking the
generational
cycle.
Well, I think
that there's a
huge thing that's
missing.
By the way, I
agree with you.
I don't wanna
just say over
what you
just said,
I agree with you
on that.
But there's other
things that I
talk about
in my book,
and as far as
parent alienation
that is connected
to narcissism,
it's a huge one.
I mean, people
get divorced and
then they hate
their ex,
and then they
treat them like
shit in front of
their kids,
and they're
wiring their kids
to hate the
other parent.
And that's
another form of
narcissistic
abuse
that is not only
to the adults
that are living
at the children
that are
involved in it,
involved in the
dysfunctional
situation
with the two
co-parenters.
And there's a lot
of emotionally
maturity
and a lot of
narcissism that's
involved in that.
And I think that
people are
confusing parent
alienation
for going no
contact with
parents.
There's a lot of
topics
around that
that I'm seeing
on social media.
And I'm like,
well, you just...
Because the
story's also
rewritten
for hits
about who their
parent is.
When a parent is
degrading
and telling their
side of the story
to the kid,
which they have
no
business doing.
And I think that
that really
affects kids.
I talk about
parent
alienation,
how to avoid it
as much as
possible,
and what
you can do.
I talk about that
at the end of my
book too.
So narcissism
touches so many
different levels.
You know
what I mean?
Having a
narcissist,
a parent,
having a
narcissist
partner, you get
divorced,
you still have to
co-parent.
And so you're
still in this
constant
state of...
You can't
get out of it.
But it's a
good point,
because parent
alienation is
more
influenced, right?
And then no
contact is a
personal decision
for your own
healing.
But it's needing
to
understand that,
especially the
child, when they
get older,
understanding
they might've
been manipulated
into this.
This wasn't their
own decision.
That can be a
hard wake up call
because they
probably are
closer with
the parent
who was doing the
manipulation.
Now you have to
really look at
that relationship
with this parent.
I just saw a
headline.
What a mess.
I think it was
Yahoo or
something.
It was a headline
about this woman
who said,
"My mom talked me
into separating
from my dad,
and we just
reconnected after
43 years,
and it was all
bullshit."
And she's like,
"This is amazing.
I'm getting to
know my dad,
but my mom
manipulated me
into thinking
he was a terrible
person."
Right.
And so that's it.
Oh, it is fucked
up, but it really
happens a lot.
And if you look
at the research
of Gen X,
so Gen X was the
first generation
that experienced
the divorce boom.
100%.
So how many Gen X
kids that
are now adults
alienated by
these methods,
unknowingly by
one parent
or the other?
Well, my father
was never
in my life.
Well, was he
never in
your life
because he just
left or because
he was alienated?
You know
what I mean?
There's so many
questions now.
And so that's why
you're seeing
these people
reconnect
after 43 years is
because people
are
starting to wake up
to the
narcissistic
abuse after what
happens to
the child
and how a child
is manipulated to
turn away from
their
healthy parent.
You know, it's
fascinating.
And this actually
does apply to
you, I guess.
There were
different events
that
happened, right?
Like there was
Vietnam, there
was the
summer of love,
there's acid and
drugs culture.
So we had this
cultural
phenomenon.
Kids are born,
parents are
divorcing,
and you have what
you just
described.
So we are that
generation of
this perfect
cocktail
of some fucked up
stuff, really.
Perfect storm.
You know, a
perfect storm.
Because then you
have a lot of
kids, I
fortunately
didn't,
but a lot of kids
were in daycare
and had the
parents divorced
and fighting
and talking shit
about one
another, it has
an impact.
And last day has
such
tremendous impact.
Yeah, we were the
first
latch keys too.
Like there's so much.
Yeah, it's wild.
Jenna, I think
we're an amazing
generation.
We are survivors,
but I do think a
lot of the
Gen X men
are avoidance.
I think that
there's something
to that.
Oh, sure.
And I think I
would like to see
Gen X men midlife
start on their
healing journeys
as much as Gen X
women are.
Because as Gen X
women are on
their healing
journeys,
they're gonna
outgrow
the Gen X men
if they also
don't look
in the mirror.
And that could
cause some
problems.
Seriously, so
Father's Day,
I was like
hitting TikTok
hard and
advertising,
all social media
outlets actually,
with my book,
because it's the
same thing.
And it's so known
that women, Gen X
women are,
especially in the
point of
where we are
and going through
menopause,
we're not putting
up with much shit
anymore.
And so that's a
big problem for
our Gen X guys.
But I'll tell you
what, if you
have a woman
and she's in
menopause and
you're willing to
do the work,
man, you just,
that's a gift.
That's a
100% gift.
To the woman or
the man?
To the
relationship.
To the
relationship.
Yeah, but also to
the man because--
No, I agree, I'm
just laughing.
No, it is.
It's the scenario.
Yeah, oh, we both
said it, yeah.
Because actually
if the
men can grow
and rise to the
occasion, like
you said,
the relationship
will be closer
and better
than it ever has
been, ever.
100%.
100%, 100%.
But they have to
do that work
because
like you said,
we don't give a
shit anymore.
We don't.
There are things
we are not going
to put up with
anymore.
We just are not.
There's
clubs now.
I don't
give a fuck.
I know.
I mean, we truly
don't know.
Yeah, it's the
total ultimatum.
It is.
What you just
said is an
ultimatum.
It is, it is.
Deal with it,
figure it out or
fuck off.
Yeah, because
you're not gonna,
there's just
certain, we're
not, life's
too short.
We did it,
we're done.
We're done, we've
had that
conversation.
There are things
where I have said
in the last
couple of years,
I'm not, no.
So figure it out.
Yeah, same.
You guys will
think I'm crazy.
I probably would
get shit
for this,
but I think it's
about time.
I think it's
about time
that I think
you're the right
generation.
And what I mean
by it's
about time,
I think
women are strong.
Women have always
been strong
throughout
history.
It takes two men
and women,
but women have
always been
extremely strong.
And I don't think
our moms or the
generation
ahead of us
has the same
attitude.
You guys are the
first to do it.
Have this fuck
around and find
out type of
attitude.
I think it's
about time.
I think
it's good.
I think it's good
leadership.
It helps the next
generation
of women
to not be
subservient,
because it
shouldn't be.
So I find it
interesting.
As much as I fuck
around and joke
about it,
I do think
it is legit.
I think
it's good.
Well, we are
the mothers
of the young
millennials and
the Gen Z.
We are raising a
lot of women
that are out
there right now,
not taking shit.
Are your
daughters
stronger than you
were at
their age?
I don't know.
I don't think so.
I don't know how
to answer that.
I think that
they've
never endured
the things
that I have.
So I don't want
them to have to
be as
strong as I was.
Maybe not strong
isn't the
right word.
Maybe more
self-assured or
maybe more
self-confident.
I would
definitely
say that.
I mean, they're
able to voice
their feelings
a lot
more freely.
They're just way
more self-aware.
We talked about
this earlier in
the podcast.
I just feel that,
and some Gen
Xers, I think
that it's total
bullshit
that millennials
and Gen Z,
that they talk
about their
feelings,
but for real,
it's way better
that they do,
that they have
the stage for it.
I also do think
that some can
take that shit to
the extreme.
Everything isn't
about your
fucking feelings.
Yeah.
Right?
Like sometimes
shit needs
to get done.
So I think that
there's
just a balance
and I think that
Gen Z is right in
the midst of it.
I don't know
about Alpha.
I'm a little
worried
about them
because I feel
that Gen Z kids
had the Gen
Xer parents
that were also
against
technology at the
beginning.
We were like,
"Fuck that.
Fuck that.
We still had our
Gen X ways.
You go knock on
the kid's door.
What do
you mean?"
And the Snapchat
and all the shit.
I think that we
really limited,
that we had a lot
of control over
their
social media
and all of
that stuff.
At least I did as
a parent
because I was
like, "This is
not a good thing.
It's good that we
as adults
have this
and for our jobs
and for all of
this stuff."
But for them, I
was like,
"This is gonna
have a long-term
effect for sure."
Yeah.
And it has.
But I mean, I
just think
overall,
I think that
every generation
is gonna have
their...
But I do think
like what
Brian's saying,
I personally
think that Gen X
is pivotal.
We're changing
the narrative on
so many things,
so many things
like menopause,
for example, so
many things.
So I think
millennials and
Gen Z will
run with it
and hopefully
cement it.
So as Alpha and
the generation is
coming up behind,
I think we're
changing the
culture in
certain ways.
I agree.
And I think our
generations
before us
were so stoic
they didn't have
the space to
speak up.
And I think we've
been put through
so much shit.
We don't
give a fuck.
And so we're just
gonna...
We don't
give a fuck.
We don't
give a fuck.
So before I ask
my last question,
do you have any
other
questions though?
I did, I forget
what it
was though.
Oh, I know.
I wanted to bring
up one thing you
said about
golden children
are also
manipulated
and have their
own form
of abuse.
And I do agree
with that.
A lot of times- What is
the golden?
Like the
favored child.
The golden child,
I think
sometimes dealing
with a lot of
emeshment.
Yes, very
much so.
Very much so.
And as a result,
the parents'
expectations
and dreams are
placed on
that child
and that child is
expected to
live almost
for the parents'
desires, not
their own.
Does that
make sense?
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, I feel
that my oldest
sister was
horribly abused
by my mother and
my father.
I feel for her, I
know that she was
manipulated
and that she's
used, she
was used.
So when you're
being used to act
as the protector
of a parent as a
child, I don't
care how
old you are
where stories are
told, lies
are told.
And then it's up
to my
oldest sibling
to protect my
mother from me,
supposedly.
You know
what I mean?
Like there's just
so many layers.
And I just feel
that it's just
extremely abusive
to anyone that I
do feel
though I wonder
like about the
golden child
scapegoat.
Like if somebody
presents that
information
to a golden child
who's also the
oldest sibling
because we
haven't even
talked about like
hierarchy issues
within
families, right?
And so the idea
that because
you're the oldest
and the first
grandchild,
the first,
you had the first
baby in the
family, the
first, the first,
somehow you are
more worthy of
respect and love.
And those that
were born
underneath you
are less worthy.
But to get back
to my point,
because I don't
believe in that
whatsoever.
Like somehow
because you're
older and kids
parenting kids
and all the shit
that we
grew up with.
But as far as
like, I wonder
like if
that my sister
was presented
with the
information like
and told,
you were
manipulated, you
were used to
abuse your sister.
Like I wonder
what her reaction
or any golden
child's reaction
would be
because I think
that it would be
one of rage and
disbelief
and they would be
like, that
person's
fucked up.
I don't believe
that my sister
would truly
believe that.
I know that at
one point
she was crying,
she was super
upset because my
mother
would tell her
horrible lies
about me.
And so then I
went to her house one evening
and she told me
all of the things
that my mother
was telling her,
which was that I
was an alcoholic
that I
was abusing
and I was abusing
my kids.
And because my
sister lived like
45 minutes away,
she wasn't
stopping over.
Like we only saw
each other like
certain events.
And she was
crying, she was
bawling.
I know she didn't
tell me like
everything.
That was like the
general
thing of it.
And I'm like
looking at her
dumbfounded,
like how this is
supposed to be my
fucking mother.
My mother's
telling my oldest
sister this shit
and like this is
how this is
going down.
And so I
did this,
this was the
final
conversation
about having
boundaries
and talking to my
mother
about this.
But this time I
brought my
husband with me.
Remember the
first time I went
by myself?
Brought my
husband with me
this time
to witness what
she says because
she was lying.
She just kept
lying or
exaggerating.
And I was like,
okay, so now the
conversation,
I initiate this
conversation to
try to resolve
the shit
that she's saying
about me to
my sister.
Now remember, I'm
also talking to
my sister
and saying that
how
dysfunctional she is.
She's doing this,
she's doing that,
she's doing this.
But my sister's
telling
my mother,
like we're going
round and round
and round
and round and
round, all this
shit's going on.
And so now she's
got to flip
the script.
It's the
narrative that
it's gotta be
that it's me.
It's not her,
it's me.
Right, of course.
That she's not
having problems,
that she's
perfect,
that she's the
savior in
the family
and she's allowed
to just talk
about whoever the
fuck she
whenever she
wants to.
And so I go to
her and I ask for
boundaries.
She explodes,
she's enraged.
No, I'm the
fucking mother.
Who the fuck do
you think
you are?
You don't fucking
come in here.
You don't talk to
me about
all that shit.
Then like
literally, and
then I'm like,
you're saying
things to
my sister,
saying that I'm
abusing my
children,
cannot speak
about me in this
fashion.
Do you
understand that?
And she's like,
then she
denied it,
like the
gaslighting.
Now my husband's
sitting
there, right?
Like he's not
part of the
conversation.
He's observing,
which I
asked him to do.
And until she
starts to say and
try to say that
she didn't,
that she didn't
say that,
that she didn't
say that to
my sister,
that she didn't
say it during the
middle of our
conversation
because she did,
she like started
verbally
attacking me
after the
boundaries things
and telling me
I was abusing my
children.
And then
literally 10
minutes later,
when I was
explaining her,
you have to,
after she calmed
down and stopped
screaming at me
like a lunatic,
then she gaslit
me right from my
husband,
telling saying,
you know, that
she didn't,
she never
said that.
She never said
that I was, I
never said that
about you.
And then a month
after
that or more,
I don't know how
long, how much
longer it was.
I think it was
almost a year
after that
because I was
just continuing
to go more
and more low
contact,
less and less.
But after that
conversation, now
she paints
this picture
and tells my
sister, my
oldest sister
that my husband
walked in there
like the heavy.
He sat on the
couch, he's five,
five, like,
he's a small guy.
Yeah, well, he
walks in as
the heavy.
I'm like, he
wasn't a heavy.
He barely even,
the only time he
spoke was
when he,
she was
gaslighting
saying, I never
said that.
I never said that
you were abusing
your kids.
And I'm like, you
did, you did, you
said it now.
You said it 10
minutes ago.
And he's like,
and she looked at
him to
invite him in.
And that's when
he spoke up and
was like, yeah,
you did.
After that, oh,
he was, he was,
remember I told
you earlier that
he was
everything.
He was
everything.
Like she would go
to his, the work
to sites
where he worked
like country
clubs that she
didn't belong to
that he worked in
and would just
open up the doors
and walk in like,
hello, I'm here.
My son-in-law did
all of this work.
Crazy, crazy.
But you know, she
was super proud
of him, right?
Until he went
against her.
But when you set
boundaries,
the person who
has the most
extreme reaction
is the reason why
you're setting
the boundary.
And they hate it.
They hate it.
They get more and
more enraged
the harder you
hold your
boundary.
But I always tell
my kids,
that's when you
know you have to
hold it the
strongest.
Is when somebody,
the more enraged
this person is,
is showing you
why you need to
hold that
boundary.
Because it's the
perfect example
of that.
But I think for
your
older sister,
she was, I think
your mom,
it was on.
There was no
individuation.
Your sister was
just like an
appendage,
probably another
appendage.
It's like, it was
a total
enmeshment from
the start.
Your sister maybe
didn't even have
a chance
to ever really be
who she could be.
Because she
belonged
to your mom.
Does that
make sense?
Like I
think you do.
With that, I mean.
She was,
well yeah.
And I mean, my
mom was a baby
when she
had my sister.
So my last
question
is always,
where do you see
yourself in
five years?
I see myself on a
sailboat.
(laughs)
Somewhere in the
Florida
Keys maybe.
Just
enjoying life.
That's where I
see myself.
But that's not
really realistic.
I think I have
about seven
before I'm going
to retire.
So more like in
seven years,
that's where I'm
gonna be.
But I'll be at
the end of
retiring as a
teacher.
Hoping that the
Valor of
Generation X
resonates
with people
and they take
away some of my
life lessons
and they're just
better for it.
And the next
generation
to come.
That's the kind
of legacy that I
wanna leave
and be remembered
for the years of
service
for others.
Yeah, that's
wonderful.
That's wonderful.
And your
courses too.
Yeah.
That are
helping people.
And the sound
baths and
everything that
you are,
you're offering
help and tools
and outlets
on so many
different levels
of healing.
You know, the
book is a
huge one,
but then there's
so many branches
off of that.
Yeah, I know.
It was a lot.
To get all of
that together.
And it took a lot
of time.
It took many
years to do all
of that.
So it wasn't like
an overnight sort
of thing.
But yeah,
I agree.
I definitely,
sound baths
changed my life.
Writing,
journaling,
that's something
that I've always
connected with.
So that was kind
of a natural
step for me.
And just being
able to,
well, this was
one thing.
I was in church,
it was
funny, Brian.
My husband likes
to go to church
sometimes.
So we were
talking about
this earlier.
You were in
church and the
pastor at the
time said
something
about when you
heal, you serve.
And I was like,
and I felt like
he was speaking
directly
to me and I was
like, okay, so
this story has to
be told.
And the story had
to be told.
The course is to
be built.
And so the sound
baths just for
family and
friends locally,
just to help
regulate our
nervous systems.
Because if we
talked about that
20 years ago,
regulate your
nervous system,
people would have
looked at us like
we were crazy.
But. Absolutely.
But it's not now,
thank God,
honestly.
It's amazing that
all of these
tools have
really come
to fruition right
as Gen X is ready
to accept them.
I agree.
It's kismet.
It's interesting.
I'm a skeptic of
the nervous
system concept.
I have been, but
I think you may
have alleviated
it earlier.
The way you
described it
around your
cortisol levels
or elevated in
that your nervous
system is in sync
with that.
So if you
actually lower
your
cortisol levels,
your nervous
system freaks out
in a sense.
I'm rephrasing
it, but that was
kind of
what I heard.
And that makes
sense to me.
So you finally
explained it to
me, who's like,
because I hear, I
jokingly
with her,
it's like we hear
a lot of psycho
babble stuff.
The narcissism,
the gaslighting,
all the
different terms.
He means on
social media.
He doesn't mean
our guests.
Yeah, no, I don't
mean it.
No, I
agree though.
Yeah, not
our guests.
But show drop
like you're an
avoidant
and you're being
an avoidant.
It's like knock
it off. But it's
accurate.
Yeah, but it's
like
knock it off.
Then it's like
your gaslighting,
knock it off.
Accurate.
You're being a
narcissist,
knock it off.
Narcissistic
tendencies, I
don't say you're
a narcissist.
But I think that
whole nervous
system concept
that it finally
resonated.
So I
appreciate that.
Thank
you, Denise.
That makes sense.
You're welcome.
I got you.
Stick together
the gymnast
swimming here.
Right, thank you.
And by the way,
I've said many of
the same things
to my husband, so
you're not
alone, Brian.
But it does make
a world of a
difference
when we are
conscious to our
nervous systems
of state and our
cortisol levels
and how toxic
and our entire
bodies become in
regards to
inflammation
and leading to
diseases and all
kinds of
other things.
So that's
information that
everybody,
no matter what
circumstances
you've been
through,
that everybody
can benefit from.
I think it's an
important bit of
information.
100%.
100%.
I mean, Denise,
we can't thank
you enough
for sharing your
story with us,
with our
listeners.
The Valor of
Generation X
truly is a guide
for healing for
our generation.
I think it is
something that
every Gen X-er
should have
sitting on their
nightstand or in
their car
or on their desks
to go to when
they need that
guidance
or for more
information just
to help them
on their
healing path.
I think it's so
important and the
fact that
you're offering
these
courses for free
to go along with
the book.
You get these
courses
with the book.
It's really, it's
all these tools
that can help our
generation.
So I encourage
all of our
listeners
to go purchase
this book.
It'll be
life-changing, I
think, for them.
Yeah, absolutely,
and I
appreciate it.
So just for
people to know
where they can
find it,
it's
available on Amazon.
Just type in the
search at the
Valor of
Generation X,
it'll come
right up.
It's only $19.97,
but it's
extremely
valuable
for sure.
And my contact
information
is in there.
So if anybody's
interested in
taking any of the
courses,
for each of the
chapters,
there's pretty
much a course
connected to it.
So you can take
the whole thing,
like, or just
bits and pieces,
but it's
all free.
And I'd be happy
to send that over
your way.
My email address
is in the
book as well.
So just
send an email.
We'll open it in
the description
of the podcast.
And I know you're
going to, in
the future,
right now the
website's being
revamped a
little bit,
but once it's up,
we're going to
have that in the
show notes.
So it may not be
in there
right away,
but it will be
coming in there
so people can
also go to that.
But yeah, I mean,
you get
this book,
and with it, you
get these courses
to go along with
this book.
It's just a
no-brainer,
honestly.
Honestly, you get
the
backstory too.
I think Nicole
touched on it,
but you've been
so open with
your story,
and it's an
incredible one.
I think it'll
just add better,
more value and
context as you're
reading through
the book.
So I think
that's cool.
100%, 100%.
And again,
thank you.
It's just been
such a pleasure
to have you on.
And spend
this time,
thank you for
giving us so much
of your time.
Oh, thank
you guys.
I appreciate you
so much.
And it's truly
been my honor to
be on your
podcast.
So I'll continue
watching and
listening
and cheering you
guys on.
Thank you, we
appreciate that.
And for our
listeners,
if you have any
questions or
comments
for Denise,
you know where to
leave them.
She'll see them
on social media.
If you wanna
leave them on
YouTube,
anywhere,
she'll see it.
If you have any
comments or
questions for
Brian or I,
you know that we
always see that.
We love to hear
from you.
And we will see
you next
time, bye.
(upbeat music)