Episode 58 - The Silent Generation - Sharon

[Music] Welcome to GenX Adulting and today we have Sharon with us. Welcome Sharon. Thank you so much. And just for full disclosure, Sharon is my aunt. So we're so excited to have her here because you are our first silent generation. A milestone. It's huge. It's huge. I'm so excited for our younger listeners to Get this opportunity to hear your story. So I just, it's awesome. The first question we always ask is what year were you born? 1944. 1944. Yeah. Okay. So you were born during World War II, correct? Yes. I was born in 44 and the war ended in 45. Okay. So you're considered a war baby, right? Yes. So for our younger listeners, can you explain what that means? It just means it's referred to as a silent generation, but also any person born during the war was just referred to as the war babies. Okay. And was there a lot of war babies? There were, you know, sometimes in war times people left and there was that sense for some that they didn't know if they'd be back or not. And so that urgency to get married or have a relationship that maybe they would have waited before, but now it's sort of, if you don't know, if you're going to be alive long, your perspective on things changes. No, that makes sense. And so I think that, I think that was, that was it is why. Yeah. So you grew up thinking war is possible and people die in war. So you got to live and kind of cram things in. The parents of that. The parents of that generation as, and you know, remember up through Vietnam, there was a draft. So it wasn't like people were going and volunteering to go in the service. They were being drafted. And so, you know, young boys, you know, my biological father was drafted when he was 17. And, you know, it was just a lot more. So here are these young boys going off to war.

were being drafted. And so, you know, young boys, you know, my biological father was drafted when he was 17. And, you know, it was just a lot more. So here are these young boys going off to war. And if you're, you know, their boyfriends, girlfriends, whatever it's like, this may be our last chance to have any relationship. And there wasn't birth control accessible. It was quite a few years before that. Right. So that makes sense. And I'm pretty sure there was no awareness of cause and effect. Right. And so everything, because nothing anybody did was on social media. Not that, you know, there was so many things that didn't exist. So it didn't mean that a lot of those behaviors didn't happen, but nothing was out there. Well, probably wasn't even discussed in the family openly. Oh, no. Oh, no. Or even between mothers and daughters, fathers and sons was the was the probably the main concept was you wait until you get married. Absolutely. And then you have sex. Yeah, basically. Absolutely. And so you wouldn't even have said those words then. It was just what evolved. It's just so it was just kind of like no one talked about anything. And but then there was that push of, oh, my gosh, you're going away to war. So there's those probably romantic moments. And right, maybe a lot of those couples didn't realize a baby could a war baby. No, because when you think about there was no nothing of media, right? There was radio. Right. That was it. There was radio. And nobody was discussing sex on radio. Families weren't discussing it. And so couples went, they were aware what they were doing, but they were blind to the ramifications, I believe. Yeah. You know, no, that makes sense. Okay. So where were you born? I was born in Portland, Oregon. And how many generations

but they were blind to the ramifications, I believe. Yeah. You know, no, that makes sense. Okay. So where were you born? I was born in Portland, Oregon. And how many generations go back for your family in settling in that area? My great grandparents came in the early 1900s. Okay, where did they come from? They came from Enid, Oklahoma. And prior to that, they came from Kansas. And so they came as part of the Oklahoma Land Rush. We came into Oklahoma and whatever land you settled on you, that was yours. Wow. And so it was very, very different. And so when he was in Oklahoma, it always I was 10 when he died. And I had no awareness of asking the questions I wish I could ask now. But when they were in Oklahoma, he was a sheriff. And he knew the Jesse, Jesse James and the gang knew the Dalton boys, he'd had to bring them in at times for all the shenanigans they did. And I can remember my grandma saying, once in a while, she got to ride with him and they would go check on the Indians, Native Americans, as we now say, but check on the Indians on the reservation, because people would come and give them alcohol, and things would be wild. So my great grandfather would do these routine trips out there just had very good relationships, according to my grandma. And but she would always say it was so scary, because they would go out on horseback and check on the reservations. But he knew the James gang, he knew the Dalton boys, all that, that his assignment to sheriff, the document was signed by Abraham Lincoln. No way. Yeah. And for a long time, well, for some time, my grandma had that document. And then somehow it got to an uncle that we weren't real close to. And then that got to his side of the family. So we have I saw it, what my grandma had it. And but

document. And then somehow it got to an uncle that we weren't real close to. And then that got to his side of the family. So we have I saw it, what my grandma had it. And but really, we hadn't seen it since. But those kinds of things, I mean, as you could imagine, as an adult, I would have had a million questions of him. Absolutely. So I'm picturing it's kind of like the movie Tombstone. Like that's like John Wayne stuff. Yeah, it is. It is because where my grandma was, she was born in 1896. And so she was a young girl going with him. And, and so it was very, you know, very remote, very Cowboys and Indians, honestly, right, honestly, the real fact of it. And I just remember those blips of stories. And then, as an adult, and I was in my program in college as an adult, I did an interview with my grandma and recorded it because I just I want her and she was in her early 90s when I did. But I wanted to hear again, to make sure I remembered what she had previously said. And those were exactly the stories that she told. I have a question. Is your great grandmother, her grandmother, she's talking about your Nana. No, it's, it's our Nana's mother and father. It's my Nana's. So it's your great, great grandfather. But the writing along with her dad, that would be Nana. Yes, yes, Nana was the child. And what she's talking about. Because I when I think it was on her hundred birthday or something, I was talking with her and she told me about how her dad arrested the James brothers. And so that's the same person. It's the same person. The same situation. Yeah. She was such a neat lady. Oh, she was she was my role model, my anchor. Yeah. Through all of my life. And from everything, you know, how to talk to people, how to be, you know, not that my mom

She was such a neat lady. Oh, she was she was my role model, my anchor. Yeah. Through all of my life. And from everything, you know, how to talk to people, how to be, you know, not that my mom wasn't, but my grandma was just my hero. She had a lot of grace about her total grace. And she was, you know, in the middle of a lot of chaos growing up, she was the stable, there's normal people out there, you know, and I mean, silly little things of like, how you always set a napkin at the place when you have a meal. I mean, those kind of things that are just things that were way more than that. But I mean, she was just a very impactful person to me. She had a very calming, nurturing energy. And she was kind to everyone. Yeah, she was kind to everyone. One of the bonuses of Brian and I getting married so young, as we've talked about in other episodes, but one of the bonuses is you did get to meet Nana. Yeah. And I so wish I would have just gone in on it more. I wish we were doing this then. And she was here to tell her story. Absolutely. Now, that's the toughest part is when you're young, you don't get it. Oh, when I mean, you know, at 10, all I remember is I loved going over to their house. And oh, did they have candy? You know, those kind of immature things, but childish things. And then going to his funeral, he was the first person I'd ever seen that was deceased. And we went to the funeral. And, and I saw him and I was just like, wow. But none of that as a child, you formulate into what you're really hearing and witnessing. Yeah, it was only much later. And so I thought, well, I really want to, I love hearing Nana talk about it. And she would just talk about it really slowly. And, and she'd kind of divert a little bit. And then when we lived

later. And so I thought, well, I really want to, I love hearing Nana talk about it. And she would just talk about it really slowly. And, and she'd kind of divert a little bit. And then when we lived in this house, we had this mulberry bush. And then she'd go into more of the other things that were just incredible and such history and things go now at such warp speed. I really believe that people don't treasure history like that. And we're so far, you know, for people to be, I feel really blessed to be connected to that such that I can remember some of that, because things are at warp speed now. Nobody's going to remember a grandparent that rode horses with his year. Yeah. No, it's, it's, that's such a good point. It's again, one of the reasons I feel so fortunate that you even agreed to share your story, because again, there's so much that you've experienced or that you even heard firsthand, that so many generations, like you just said, we'll never get that opportunity. So it's very special. So they were in Oklahoma, and he's running the town like tombstone. Like, did they know him his name, the James brothers and would Oh, yeah, like they had kind of like this. Oh, yeah, love, hate relations. It was Frank Oswald, and they definitely knew him. Yes. And but he was, as my grandma tells it now, what, what, what their perception is, who knows, but what my grandma tells it is that, and I can believe it, because they were very kind people, but that everybody loved him. And even if she says, even if he had to arrest them, he was kind when he did it. And so they, they all liked him in spite of it. Now, how that really played out, I really don't know. Yeah. But what I appreciate about it is how that kindness, it always seemed to be at the forefront of

him in spite of it. Now, how that really played out, I really don't know. Yeah. But what I appreciate about it is how that kindness, it always seemed to be at the forefront of things. It certainly was with my grandma. And, and then they moved to Portland, I'm not even really sure the year, but the early 1900s, they came west. Do you know why? I don't know. And I don't know, when they first came west, he worked at a moving and storage company. And until he retired. So that's a shift. Oh, for sure. For sure. So do you think something happened? It possibly could have, I don't know. And by that time, there were four or five kids. And, and so it may have been for a different life. I really don't know. That makes sense. Like maybe he felt like he was risking his life too much. And now he has a big family and maybe he could make more money up in Portland. You have a quote, I can tell you what to say. No, I was just going to say you almost had, I bet you could trace it to some historical event. There was the Dust Bowl. I don't know when that happened, right? The drought in Oklahoma was rough. And I do remember, I think she told me they came using the Oregon Trail. So that was probably this whole, maybe a gold rush or something. I don't know. Did they come using the Oregon Trail? That part I never heard her say, so I'm not really sure. I could have sworn she told us or told me like they came across like in a stage coach. Well, that was when they did the Oklahoma land rush at first, you know, because have you ever seen that movie where they, yes, it was like craziness, like they run and then they say, this is my land and they're in the covered wagons. Yeah. And I'm not like that. There's a movie, Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman. Oh yeah. Do you

like craziness, like they run and then they say, this is my land and they're in the covered wagons. Yeah. And I'm not like that. There's a movie, Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman. Oh yeah. Do you know which one I'm talking about? So far and away or something like that. But I feel like at the end they are claiming land and it, it, it could very well be because the Dust Bowl as well, because that brought a lot of people, it brought a lot of people to California and where they started working. You've ever read the grapes or methods, documents it very painful, but amazing way. And so a lot of people could come from that, but those are the kinds of things I would be so much more curious about now as an adult, wanting to know a whole lot more of the why. Right. The motivation because so she's raising four or five kids, they move, he's working at a moving and storage company. So I assume she was a stay at home mom. Cause back then all moms were home, right? No, nobody, the women did not work. They stayed at home. So the mean, it wasn't even a question. It was just asked what you did. And this is like early 1900s. Yes. Do you know what part of Portland they settled in? They settled in, in their older years, they lived in Southeast and it was because there was no development in Portland other than inner what is now inner Southeast, inner Northeast. Portland was more in a core area to the river. And so they were on the East side of Portland, right? But more. And I'm just trying to remember where I think it was inner Southeast is what I recall, but everything was, it didn't go very far out then. Right. Portland did not go very far out. Like did it even have, was anything on the other side of the river on the West side really? Yes, but near the river. Okay. Because

very far out then. Right. Portland did not go very far out. Like did it even have, was anything on the other side of the river on the West side really? Yes, but near the river. Okay. Because that's where it first started with logging. That's what that's, that's where the name Skid Row came from. They use skids to get the logs and that's where, and there was Chinatown and all the Shanghai and all that kind of history. But, but everything was around the river, everything built up from the Willamette River. So Portland started out as a logging town. Yes, it did. Isn't that interesting? I never thought about that. And I grew up in Oregon and I know logging towns and I mean, that's just normal to me seeing trucks drive by with the trees, but I never correlated that that's how Portland began. It is absolutely. And a lot of the buildings and, and things, the Benson Hotel is named after Simon Benson, who was one of the early land barons. And his home, I mean, not everybody would know this, but you may know, I don't know if you ever saw the old church in Southwest Portland. His home is across the street from that. And it's a big mansion. Like, I don't know what the condition is now, but it had gone into disrepair. Yeah. But a lot of the naming of things in Portland are from the early land barons and then public publishing, because of course the the logs and then the newspapers. Right. And but it really started with the logging. That's so interesting. I recall there used to be logs in the river. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, and that wasn't even that long ago. I know, but just in my young mind and growing up there, it just I always thought of other towns as logging towns, not where I'm at, but it really started. So that means like, like, Pidock was

ago. I know, but just in my young mind and growing up there, it just I always thought of other towns as logging towns, not where I'm at, but it really started. So that means like, like, Pidock was probably timber. He was he actually was the newspaper newspaper company was a Piddock was the newspaper company. There's a fascinating tour through downtown, which I wouldn't take any more. But anyway, it's a guided tour. And it shows there's an underground Portland. And there's places where people were literally Shanghai'd from bars. And there would be false trap doors in it. They would go down into these tunnels that you could take a tour of it today. And it goes down to the river and it shows how they were Shanghai'd into the river. What does that mean? Literally, basically kidnapped. And you don't know what happened to them. Or they were maybe sold for labor. There also was a segment of Chinese that were brought in. And those were slave labor, really workers started early laundries. But that was as as a slave service. So but everything was really around the river. The river is what everything fanned out from then from the river and built up from there. That makes sense. Okay, so Nana had, you're saying like four or five or three or four siblings. Nana had Yeah, she had she did she had a sister who ended up marrying and lived out of Spokane. They had acreage there. They were wheat farmers. Oh, interesting. And then she had a brother Floyd. Yeah. And I cannot remember where he worked, but he was married and they never had children. And then she had another brother and another sister that lived in southern Oregon in around Medford. Oh, interesting. And Klamath Falls. So she was the only one that stayed in Portland. Because her

she had another brother and another sister that lived in southern Oregon in around Medford. Oh, interesting. And Klamath Falls. So she was the only one that stayed in Portland. Because her husband worked for the railroad. Okay, so do you know how and again, for listeners, when I'm saying Nana, that Sharon's grandma, my great grandmother. Yes. Do you know how Nana met her husband? Yes, through first Christian church in a youth group. Oh, really? Do you know how old she was? Shoot. Funny enough, I have on my phone, I came across some papers in her Bible. I have her old Bible. And in it was a wedding announcement. When they got married, and it was diverting here a minute, but it was in 1921 that they got married. And in their wedding announcement, it's how they used to do them. And it's very descriptive. It's describing her dress, what the flowers were, what the, you know, she had on a lovely dress, and they were married in this church and first Christian church, and they're going to be settling here. And it was in her southeast. And, but it was like, you know, anymore would be like, they wouldn't even put it in the paper, somebody would throw it on Facebook or something. But yeah, it was a very descriptive of the flowers and the dresses. And it was really lovely. And but I found this was like a couple months ago, I was going through her Bible and barely held together. And I found that original newspaper clipping of their wedding. That's amazing. That was very fun. But you know how old she was when she got married. She wasn't too. So she, well, let's see, they were married in 21. She was born in 1896. So who could do the math quick? 25. 25. Yeah. Okay. So that's about right. Yeah, that's actually not crazy young, especially

in 21. She was born in 1896. So who could do the math quick? 25. 25. Yeah. Okay. So that's about right. Yeah, that's actually not crazy young, especially for back then. Right. Okay. So and then do you know if he was around her age? He was, I think, just a year or two older. All right. They were very similar in age. Do you know what he did for living? Yeah, worked for the railroad. He was a an agent. They called him something actually have his business card somewhere. That's cool. Like an agent for the railroad that kind of he was not he wore a suit to work. He was in the office that like an executive executive, a sword I was trying to grab executive. And she was home because probably still then women were home. Women were home and they raised the children. So who did how many children did they have three? They had my uncle melt who was born first and he and then my mom was born born second. She was born in 1926. And he was born. I think they're all three years apart. And then your grandma, my auntie Bev was born three years later. So yeah, they were because when their dad died, they were five, eight and 11. Okay, so they're married. They have these three young children. He's some sort of executive at the railroad. She's a stay at home mom life and her parents still live in that area, right? Yes. So she's got family near. Yes. But her siblings don't live. They don't live right real close. No. And and then he he dies. He dies. So he and two of his worker guys that he worked with. And what I can't remember is if he was driving or somebody else was driving, but they were coming home from work. And there is a question whether they had stopped and had beers. But of course, that's the kind of thing that you never would

driving, but they were coming home from work. And there is a question whether they had stopped and had beers. But of course, that's the kind of thing that you never would have really discussed at that time. Yeah. So I really don't want to imply that because it was never talked about. It was illegal back then. So it's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. But anyway, they whoever was driving, they were coming from work and coming across the Broadway Bridge and veered. However, that happened and ran into the bridge abutment and he died. And I don't even recall what happened to the other two men, whether he was the only fatality. I don't know. Years later, when I was an adult, after I got out of high school, I lived with her for a few months and she and I went to dinner at a neighbor's place. And that was the first time I had ever heard her talk about that night. And she talked about when the police came to her door and told her that her husband had died in this. And she talked more about it. But that was the first time I'd ever even heard anything more than he died in a car wreck. It also again, because it was a different time, things were handled so much. Grief was, you know, there's a lot of things that grief wasn't even really the word at that time. You know, it was, I mean, of course it was a word, but it wasn't verbalized as what was happening. And so she had support from family came around. She had support from the church. She had the family that came around her. However, there was not a lot of knowledge about how do you support these children who just lost their father? My uncle Milt was told he was now the man of the house. And how old was he? 11. And so there's that. There was no conversation

how do you support these children who just lost their father? My uncle Milt was told he was now the man of the house. And how old was he? 11. And so there's that. There was no conversation about how are the children impacted by this? And then for a while, they were sent away with a cousin or something because they thought it would do the kids good to get away. You know, they're in the middle of this. And somebody had suggested it would do them good to go stay somewhere on this farm somewhere, some relative. So the grief aspect of it was never addressed. And of course, it's not surprising that they that that displayed itself throughout their life in different ways for each of them. Because it was never even acknowledged. It was kind of like this happened. You're going to go on a farm for a while when you come back. Everything everything is going to be okay. You're just going to keep going through life. Yeah. Because what did Nana do? Did she get a job? I don't think at that time, because he worked for the railroad, I'm suspecting there was probably a pension of some sort to help her. There's kind of that gap in time that I don't know much about. And then my uncle was drafted into the Navy. Very young, like most men were at that time. And I don't know exactly how old. And he went into the Navy and was in World War Two. And he was in, you know, it could have been three or four years, whatever kind of the normal time, because that's kind of how it was. They got drafted for a certain amount of time. And of course, they could re-up if they wanted. But it was during World War Two, and not everybody did. So would they be gone three years? And one tour? Pretty much, because it wasn't like it didn't get to home. Again, there was no

if they wanted. But it was during World War Two, and not everybody did. So would they be gone three years? And one tour? Pretty much, because it wasn't like it didn't get to home. Again, there was no thought about you need a break. Right. This is what you do. So none of that, you might need an R&R. Because even in Vietnam, they thought about R&R, not that it was made a huge difference, but there wasn't the same attention to what was happening. And this was her brother? No, my Nana's son, my Uncle Mel, Uncle Mel, the oldest of her three children. And when he came back from the war, his hair had gone almost white. And how old was he when he went over there? He was about 18, but it was mid 20s, early 20s. So maybe like 20, like he'd been gone maybe four years, like 21. And he was almost gray. And it's like, you think of it as PTSD in another format. Nobody sees anything good in war. And so it doesn't matter what war you see different levels of atrocity. And so but then he came back and still and my mom, three years younger, she was she was pretty rebellious. She had had a lot of health issues as a child when she was four years old. She and little neighbor kid were playing with a soap bubble pipe. What's a soap bubble pipe? If you've never seen their, they were metal because plastic hadn't been invented. And it's metal, if you think of like a man's pipe, okay, it's got the stem, and then it had a pipe and you blew bubbles out of it. Okay. And but they were metal, right? And they were playing around. And it got poked in her eye. So she got her eye poked. And I don't know whether she didn't have a patch. I don't know what they did to make it visually. Because at 16, she had a replacement, they replaced her eye with a glass eye. So she got

I don't know whether she didn't have a patch. I don't know what they did to make it visually. Because at 16, she had a replacement, they replaced her eye with a glass eye. So she got poked when she was four. And then you think they might have just covered it. They or they I don't know exactly what they did. Because any pictures I saw of her, she never wore a patch. And but it and I don't know whether it damaged it such that it just if you looked at her, you could tell there was something wrong, like like it was almost cloudy or something. And did she lose vision when that happened out of that I immediately. Yeah. And so when she was 16, they replaced it with a very normal looking. Yeah, yeah. And then she had scarlet fever as a child. How old was she when that was pretty young, like preteen. And what are the risks of scarlet fever was very deaf. Okay. And there wasn't, you know, I don't think at that time there was even penicillin. So you know, it's all this is like before things could be done. She was very sick. I mean, you can die from it very easily. It can impact your heart. And then when she was a teenager, she caught poison oak. So bad that she had to be home in bed and they had to tempt the sheets such that it didn't touch her. So, you know, again, there probably wasn't medicine. Right. So she had a lot of medical things. Yeah. You know, very significant medical things. And she lost her dad when she was eight years old. And so all these things kind of come into play and her brother left and her brother left. And so and then my auntie Bev, your grandma was three years younger. And so here's this is me kind of just painting the picture there. Yeah. And so she's younger. But all the attention really is going

your grandma was three years younger. And so here's this is me kind of just painting the picture there. Yeah. And so she's younger. But all the attention really is going to my mom because she has all these medical situations. And then she's getting closer to teenage years. And she's getting more rebellious because it's just all these things. Yeah. And she's impacting. They're all impacting their dad having died. Right. And trying to absorb it. And I really think that over the years, the choices my mom made in her life could I don't know, I can't speak to my uncle or my aunt, but I know I'm almost positive that a lot of the choices my mom made in her life, always looking for that secure male figure and always choosing poorly. But those kind of things. Now, if it was today, you know, you could get therapy, you could talk it through there's therapy for children to do that. But there wasn't any of that bit. Right. And they truly did have kind of this perfect little family life. And it was destroyed in one night. And then every they were sent away and they came back and now here's your new life, but we're not going to talk about it. And so now you're going to project how you're processing that for the rest of your life. Absolutely. Basically. I mean, really, because childhood trauma, it becomes part of your DNA, so to speak, it doesn't go away. You treat it differently. You acknowledge it differently, but it is it's never gone. And so when it happens, it's always with you. And it informs your decisions. Yeah. And so that makes sense. So and then as far as my grandma, do you know anything about how she was growing up? Very quiet. Okay, very quiet because she was kind of always in the background, so to speak, because that's and you

grandma, do you know anything about how she was growing up? Very quiet. Okay, very quiet because she was kind of always in the background, so to speak, because that's and you know her to be a much quieter person. Yeah, she was. And because you know, it wasn't they were intentionally doing it, but all this attention was going to my mom because of all these significant issues. Right. And then when my mom was and I actually found out that all the years I had the wrong age that my dad was when they got pregnant with me, I thought he was 17 and that I was born when they were 18. But when his family members had done a genealogy and it turned out he was 16. And so so and were they in high school together? They were in high school. And were they dating? Yeah. Well, I don't know for how long. Okay. And he was a great guy. Yeah. But they divorced when I was five months old. So she gets pregnant and they get married. They got married because what do you do? Then you get married, you're pregnant, you get married. Yeah. Abortion wasn't a word. Right. I don't think that that would have ever been considered. But it wasn't a word. And giving your child up, I'm sure that at some places that happened, but it wasn't really there. Right. So your only option was to get married to be respectable, whether it was the right thing to do or not. So she's 17. He's 16. But 17 and eight, I she she was 18 when I was born. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And did they move in together for a very short while? And then when he was so five months, I'm thinking that he went there was something about him going to the army pretty quickly after that. And I I wonder, I don't know this, but I have wondered if it wasn't his family kind of forcing that issue because they were not happy with it.

him going to the army pretty quickly after that. And I I wonder, I don't know this, but I have wondered if it wasn't his family kind of forcing that issue because they were not happy with it. Did they have any relation with you as you when you were a baby or anything? No, I never actually met them until I was probably 22 or 23. Okay, so so when they when your mom and dad got married, his family kind of shunned them. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And and I'm sure they were saying just things about my mom's fault or what, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind of what you know, you start people then just start the blame game. It's like somebody had to be at fault. Right, right. Certainly couldn't be their son. So no, no, God forbid. I agree. Yeah. So they had a brief moment where they might have lived together. And then he went into the army. And then did he go to war? Yes. Okay. Yeah. And but he was he was not like frontline. He was in, I think a supply clerk or something like that. So he was not frontline was was Uncle Milt frontline. Yes. Okay, yes. So was he in any of the like famous battles or probably, but I couldn't tell you that I don't recall that specific. Did he ever talk about it? No. Okay. Much like most of them came back and didn't talk about it. You know, yeah, I mean, you know, I've read and I can only imagine and I just recently read The Women by Kristin Hannah, which I feel should be required reading from everybody because it's about the nurses in combat in Vietnam. I've heard of that book. It's phenomenal. But it it gives you, you know, and a lot of other things give you a sense of we can't wrap our heads around what they went through unless we went through it. Yeah, you know, nobody else can but what they did.

things give you a sense of we can't wrap our heads around what they went through unless we went through it. Yeah, you know, nobody else can but what they did. And I think it's much like then. And in those like World War Two, the only conversation they had pretty much was on the ship coming home. They would they they're whoever they were with. But it was and you came back from the war and you just got busy doing your life. Right. It was a conversation you just moved on. So any trauma you experienced, which of course there was on a daily basis, you just had to deal with it. Yeah, well, society, there was no space created for any of that. And that probably played out. There's probably a lot of domestic abuse. Yeah. And alcoholism and all of that and all of that stuff was kept behind closed doors. Right. As it many of those things as it carried forward to but you know, it's what you did in your house was nobody else's business. Is that kind of what defines the silent generation? Yes, that's sort of the crux of it. It really I mean, you're you're the hard working came back from the war. You're the hard working people. You do the right thing. You support your country. And that's not bad. But whatever goes on behind closed doors. Yeah, is nobody else's business. And nobody else knows nobody talks about nobody knows. It's not their business and they all operated probably under the same premise or rules. Yes, I'm not gonna ask them. They're not gonna ask me. It's all good. Yes. There's so much pain because you have men coming back that are in pain. Deep, deep rooted pain, PTSD, shock, all of it. But then you also have women who probably suffered a lot because of that pain. Well, absolutely. And you also had men who were at war. And as a

pain, PTSD, shock, all of it. But then you also have women who probably suffered a lot because of that pain. Well, absolutely. And you also had men who were at war. And as a result of that, many women had to go to work to support their families. That is kind of where that whole Rosie the Riveter thing started. They were working and they were supporting. And many women felt, wow, I can do this. Well, then all of a sudden, the husbands come home and the roles shift again. And so you know, there had to be a lot of tension around that. They got a taste of independence, right? And that they could do something more than be a wife and a mother. Right. It's almost like being let out for a while and then being put back. Yeah, I mean, it would feel that way. Yeah. And then when the men came home, they started again, there's no birth control. And then the babies started popping out like, which is where a baby boomer comes from. The babies are just coming out like crazy. And the women are home back being the housewife, right, taking care of the home and the children. And you know, the number of children was just however it happened. It was had nothing to do with what your choice was. Right. Right. And then imagine if there is on top of that, alcoholism, domestic abuse, all that. No, it's it's it's it's probably there's so many layers to it. There is that. And I'm sure people have gone back and studied this and looked at it, but I don't know if it's gotten it's just due yet in our society or glorified. It feels like, oh, the baby boomers and it's talked about so with such reverence, right? And World War Two with such reverence. But there is that darker side you guys are touching on. Right. Because sure, but at what cost? Yeah. At what cost did these

with such reverence, right? And World War Two with such reverence. But there is that darker side you guys are touching on. Right. Because sure, but at what cost? Yeah. At what cost did these things happen? And and so many of the things that we know about today and we think about the words really didn't exist for what they were and what they were experiencing. It was you just did what you did. Yeah. I watched a great series on Netflix, I think, Mad Men. Have you seen that? No, but I know what you're talking about. So it's kind of it kind of makes me think of what we're talking about because it's Mad Men from New York ad agencies in Manhattan. And it's in the early 60s. And it was very, very well done and very historically correct. And one example I think of and it ties back to before even the 60s. But these people were having a dinner party and the neighbors came and the people having the dinner party, their son was being kind of mouthy and the neighbor smacked him across the face and said, knock it off. Wasn't his child. Right. Nobody batted an eye. Wow. Nobody batted. It was just the kid was misbehaving whatever male adult was there, you know. And so some of that, nobody would have thought that there was anything wrong with that. Really? Really? Like you think, like, since you watched it on the show, that made sense to you that you could have seen that happen in real life. Oh, yeah. And so when you go back further and you're coming back from the baby boomers, people not being malicious, but there was nothing about first of all, smacking a kid across the face, which is demeaning at work, you know, for starters. But, you know, if there was none of that, it was it was just so much more of an intense and nobody thought

all, smacking a kid across the face, which is demeaning at work, you know, for starters. But, you know, if there was none of that, it was it was just so much more of an intense and nobody thought about what was happening with children. And I don't mean you should go because I really don't believe you should go so soft that you baby kids and you don't make them accountable. I strongly disagree with that. But there's a balance. And it was a lot of displacement, displacement onto the children. Yeah. I'm here of what was going on. Yeah. So your dad goes to war. Does your mom move back in with Nana? Yes, she did for a bit. But with you, right? Or was this with me? With you? Because you were like five months old when he left? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so and I'm the first grandchild of ultimately 16 throughout the family. Right. So here's this baby. And now I'm really just kind of a toy to these teenage girls around. Right. You know, but here's to my point of my mom always searching by the time and none of this is to demean my mom. It's just the facts. Right. Okay. Yeah. But by the time she was 24, she had four children with three fathers. So after my dad, because all of us siblings are two years apart. Okay. So I was born and then my mom met and I don't know where she met him. Judy may know but my sister Judy was born and her with her father, a different father. So your mom and dad had gotten divorced. Yes. Yes. And then and she's got you. And then she met Annie Judy's dad. But you don't know where I don't know where they met. And then and then Judy was born. They got married. They got married. Okay. And and Judy was born. So she's two years younger than me. Okay. And then they ultimately, not a big span of time got divorced because she then met

born. They got married. They got married. Okay. And and Judy was born. So she's two years younger than me. Okay. And then they ultimately, not a big span of time got divorced because she then met my stepdad and Kathy was born. Okay. And then two years later, John was born and she was married to to their biological dad for 12 years. Okay, so she got married and lived with some moved out and Anna's lived with any Judy's and so the two of you were with them. They get divorced. Now the two of you go with your stepdad and they have Annie, Kathy and Uncle John. Yes. And you guys are all together. Yes. For 12 years. Yes. Were you in the same area of Portland when all this was happening as you moved around? Was it kind of in the same vicinity? No, I don't. I remember vaguely when I was at because my first actual remembrance is when I was two years old. And which is early to remember something. I don't. It's funny because I don't ever remember being a child. And I remember being like, I guess like an old soul always. I just remember not being. And when I was two and we lived in some apartments in apartments in Northeast Portland and inner Northeast. And I remember thinking I want ice cream. And I remember where the store was. We got ice cream, like a soda fountain. And so I left and walked to the soda fountain. And I remember that being clear in my head. I knew what I wanted and I went. And just for younger listeners, what's a soda fountain? Oh, good point. You could go and get ice cream, literally soda, pop, whatever part of the country you're in, like Coke, right? You get real Coke. Diet Coke wasn't a thing. You would get real Coke, real root beer, root beer floats, ice cream. Would you sit up like at a bar? You'd sit

the country you're in, like Coke, right? You get real Coke. Diet Coke wasn't a thing. You would get real Coke, real root beer, root beer floats, ice cream. Would you sit up like at a bar? You'd sit at a counter on a counter. With like the round stools. Yes, stools. Sit on the round stools. Like what you had one of those in my town when I was a kid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's kind of why they called it a soda fountain because it was the dispenser was like a fountain that they got the soda from. And so you would go there, but you could get ice cream. So you walked there at two years old and walked into the place and did they give you something? Oh, somebody called the police. Okay. Okay. And I think my mom panicked, freaked out. And my mom tends to be, was tending to be a very reactionary, quick reactionary person who panics really quickly. And, but of course her two year old child has disappeared. So yeah. Yeah. Understandable. And I think from, from their perspective, then police got involved. Yeah. And started looking and found me, I don't think it was certainly not very far away. Right. Found me sitting in on a stool. And the people don't know where I came from. Yeah. And so yeah. So that, that was always, did they at least give you some ice cream? Yeah, they did. Okay, good. And so it just was always kind of a joke that I was always on my own. Yeah. That kind of sums it up right there. But then being the oldest of four, that just, you know, that is kind of your role when you're the oldest of four. And my mom going through a lots of chaotic relationships and marriages and that. So at a very early age, I was taking care of a lot of things that were, should not have a child, should not have been taken care of. I don't

relationships and marriages and that. So at a very early age, I was taking care of a lot of things that were, should not have a child, should not have been taken care of. I don't remember it being like, Oh, this is awful. I have to do this. It's just what it was. You know, what were some of the things you would have to take care of? If I, from the time I was nine, I think, if bill collectors would call the house, I would be the one that was supposed to answer the phone and tell them my parents weren't home. They would pay their bills with money orders. I don't know why, but that's what they did. And so they would send me up to the post office to get money orders and bring them back to be mailed. And so I had those kind of response. And I was mature for my age, I think. I had to have been. And I just remember, it wasn't like, Oh, I have to do this. It was just part of what I had to do. Or I would have to go up to the store. And at that time, if you had a corner grocery store, you could ask to have your stuff put on account. So I was the one that would go up to the store and ask to get the things and have to ask to have them put on our account. I remember that being embarrassing because some part of me said, I don't know why we don't have money to pay for this. Because it's almost like a credit card, right? It was exactly. Yeah. The layaway. And it may or may not have been paid off. And I remember there was that. But it was also the time, and I just saw a funny meme about this week on Instagram. I'm this old and this little boy with a note from his mom sending him to the store to get cigarettes. And I did that a lot. Here's a note. And I'll take it to the corner store. And my mom says it's okay to get her cigarettes. And so

a note from his mom sending him to the store to get cigarettes. And I did that a lot. Here's a note. And I'll take it to the corner store. And my mom says it's okay to get her cigarettes. And so I would get her cigarettes and bring him home. Nothing unusual because everyone smoked. Everyone smoked. There was smoking in the doctor's office while you wait. There was smoking on planes for those rich people that got to fly. Yeah. There was smoking on the planes. And your mom can certainly tell you about that. And but no matter where you were in offices, people had ashtrays on their desk. They spoke pregnant, pregnant, drinking, smoking, pregnant, who knew there was an issue. And, and so smoking was everywhere. Yeah. And so and I wasn't the only kid who got sent to the store with a note to get cigarettes. Right, right, right. So none of that ever felt like it was out of the ordinary. It just felt like that's what that's what you did. Were you also expected as the eldest daughter and you were parentified, I assume were you expected to care for your younger siblings to to agree not because my mom was gone, but it was just I was the most responsible one, you know, and so to kind of keep an eye on everybody. So yeah, so was Annie Jean your mom? Was she home always? Was she a stay at home mom? She was a stay at home mom. And she never worked until she and my stepdad got divorced when I was 15. Okay. And when they got divorced, she got a job at a company, white stay, not far from where we lived. Do you know what she did? Um, some sort of assembly kind of work somebody because she hadn't finished high school because of course she has this child. Right. And and so it was an assembly work. That's when things were made

Um, some sort of assembly kind of work somebody because she hadn't finished high school because of course she has this child. Right. And and so it was an assembly work. That's when things were made here in America. In America. Yes. And what's that? And Janssen beat Janssen. Yeah, those were Portland companies. Yeah. Is where they start. Yeah. Is that sign still active in Portland? You know, I haven't been down that way in a really long time. It was for many, many years. I just don't know if it still is. So, um, so she's a stay at home mom, but you were still being sent to do the things. So because she was home with younger children, was that the motivation behind sending instead of her doing it? Probably. I don't know what, I mean, that's always what I took from it, but also, I mean, and she, I will say she was a great homemaker. I mean, our home was always immaculate. She was a great homemaker and she would do things like if a room needed painted, she would do it. You know, she didn't have any, you know, she didn't have any kind of princess mentality. Right. Right. She would do that. But things also got sketchy when she did go to work because now she's kind of got her freedom. And there were things that happened at that point um, that didn't happen normally in the early sixties. So that was like in 60, 61. She was going out with guys. She met a man there, uh, a black man, 60, 61. Right. Right. Importantly important. So that's really an important, very white, white still very white, white area, but the time is really important. And I was beyond horrified because it just, that just wasn't it to me, it's not even, it's not a, I suppose some people want to judge it as a racism issue. It wasn't that it was just culturally that wasn't done. Right.

because it just, that just wasn't it to me, it's not even, it's not a, I suppose some people want to judge it as a racism issue. It wasn't that it was just culturally that wasn't done. Right. You know, it was before civil rights. It was before we had more awareness and, and education. And, um, and so it wasn't done. And women who did that, I mean, it wasn't even legal to be married. I don't even recall the year, but it wasn't too much different than that year that it was legal for interracial marriages. Yeah. I don't think there were really interracial relationships. There were not even on the TV, because that guess who's coming to dinner movie. That wasn't until the late sixties. Right. And that was shocking. And then, um, and they hated the night and all that type of stuff. That was later. This is like real early pre 61 JFK stuff. This is pre JFK even, right? Or he's the president then. Right. No, it was absolutely before then. And, um, and so because it wasn't, uh, accepted, you were judged. Right. And that trickles down. So then you, you were judged as a family. Yes. And, um, and it was kept from my grandma because my grandma, of course that would have been really bad. Um, and it created, and my stepdad, he had moved out of course, but it created a lot of tension in our family and my siblings were younger and it created a ton of, uh, tension between myself and my mom, because it's, uh, it spilled over my friend that my best friend at the time, her mom found out about it. And, uh, by this time it's, I think it's my junior year of high school. And by this time she had found out about it, my best friend. Cause I said, don't tell your mom because I knew it would be bad. And she told her mom and two really humiliating

found out about it, my best friend. Cause I said, don't tell your mom because I knew it would be bad. And she told her mom and two really humiliating things happened for me. And I was always the quiet kid that just did what they're told always. And in school, I never saw anybody, never got in trouble. Never did just did what I was told. And her mom went to neighbors around where we lived. By this time we'd had to move out of our house and move into this little apartment. And her mom went around to the neighbors and told them, my mom was a prostitute because she dated. And then she went to my high school and she went to, it was Dean of girls at the time. You had a Dean of boys and a Dean of girls. And she went to the Dean of girls and said that I wasn't allowed to associate with her daughter because I was a bad influence on her because my mother was a prostitute. Oh my gosh. This is all because she's dating a black man. Yes. It was the kind of repercussions that happened. Right. And, and I, you know, I remember sitting there like, first of all, I've never even had really met this and this woman was so kind. And when I look back on it, she was so compassionate. And I know she could tell the Dean of girls you're talking about. Yes. And I know she could tell how awful this was for me. Yeah. That I was just, I was dumbfounded. And ironically, my friend was kind of the wild one. Yeah. Her family was very strictly religious and very, and so she was really the wild one. They're usually projecting the situation. Yeah. And she was the one that was out smoking, doing things she wasn't supposed to. And I'm just the sort of like, uh, right, right, right. And so she, uh, and so her mom, she didn't, she couldn't come see me anymore. She couldn't, we weren't

doing things she wasn't supposed to. And I'm just the sort of like, uh, right, right, right. And so she, uh, and so her mom, she didn't, she couldn't come see me anymore. She couldn't, we weren't allowed to be together. And then of course brought it through the neighborhood, brought it through my school. And it was just, it was, could not have been more horrifying. Were you shunned by all your friends? Um, the ones that knew the ones that knew now, my very best friend that I had grown up with since grade school. No. Um, she was shocked and did, and her parents then wouldn't allow her to come over to my house. Well, was it because they thought your mom was a prostitute? No, no, no. It was simply, it was simply the interracial, the interracial. So they basically a bomb went off. Yeah. Because of that one. That's how crazy the times were back then. And that's it. It's not like it's, it's not because, uh, I mean, it's, I, like I say, I don't view it as a racist thing. I, I view it as a sociological thing. Right. But, but if you look back on it, it is racist. But at that time, I don't even think that was a word, right? It was one of those things. Yeah. And she, um, and I remember we had our final blowout about it and she, it was Thanksgiving and she was taking. You and Annie Jean, your mom. Yes. And she was taking, uh, my sister, my two sisters and my brother to his house. And I'm sure his family was no more thrilled about it than. So, so they were, they were, would go to each other. Like he would come to your house and she would go to his house. He didn't come to our house. Okay. I'd only met him once. Okay. And I think I kind of pitched enough of a bit about it, but they were going. So she was taking the younger ones by this time.

He didn't come to our house. Okay. I'd only met him once. Okay. And I think I kind of pitched enough of a bit about it, but they were going. So she was taking the younger ones by this time. I was driving and she was taking them to Thanksgiving dinner at his house. And at that time, I'm sure they were not happy with him either. Right. Because he stayed in a white woman and why would he do that? Right. Right. Right. So it was very much both ways, but she took them and she said, we're going there for Thanksgiving. And I says, I'm not going. And she says, well, the other kids aren't bothered by this. And I said, they aren't bothered because they don't have a choice. You're taking them. Right. They don't have a choice. I do. And I'm not going. Right. And I have never been, I would never was that kid that disobeyed. Right. Right. Right. Right. But I just, it had already caused so much fallout for me. Yes. That in your personal life, in my personal life, that it wasn't because I didn't make a choice. Right. It was the fallout hit me because somebody else made a choice. Right. It's remarkable. Really. It's remarkable experience. Yeah. Was that a turning point then? Like it's, I'm making a choice and I'm going to quote unquote rebel. I never did rebel other than stand up for the fact I don't want anything to do with him. Yeah. And I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be. So where did you spend Thanksgiving? I went, I think I went with my grandma and, uh, and I ultimately, I'm the one that told my grandma because I needed a place to stay for a while. And boy, she hit the fan because again, yeah. And it's that it, yeah, the time, the times were, and people don't realize how different it was, how different it, it, you can't even

And boy, she hit the fan because again, yeah. And it's that it, yeah, the time, the times were, and people don't realize how different it was, how different it, it, you can't even imagine now. No, no, no, no, because now it seems absolutely ludicrous that it would be that much of a deal. Right. But socially it was, I mean, look what happened to your life. Well, and if you couldn't really get married interracially by law, by law at a certain time. Yeah. So craziness. He glossed over that, but that's crazy. Crazy. Think about that in our for us even. Yeah. Yeah. It is. I mean, it was against the law. That's wild. And it is wild now. And, um, and it's in your lifetime that that was in, you know, so, but to think that you went through that, like you that that's that's, and that you, like it went through your school. It went through your neighborhood and it, and, and just the fallout from it. How long did they date? Um, less than a year as I recall, but like I say, one thing I noticed is that sometimes I think your brain protects you and put you in a bubble. And yes, there's certain details that, well, if, if this happened, you should remember all the details. Well, because this happened, I'm protected from some of the details. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and I just remember, and, and of course I was told, don't tell Nana, don't tell Nana. And I remember being so upset about it and not feeling like I had the, you know, and my mom said, she's, I would never do anything to hurt you kids. And I said, you just did right. You just did. And, um, and so I kind of let it slip to my grandma. And I, I, when I look back on it, I think that was kind of a bit of a malicious thing on my part that I did that on purpose because I was looking for an

and so I kind of let it slip to my grandma. And I, I, when I look back on it, I think that was kind of a bit of a malicious thing on my part that I did that on purpose because I was looking for an ally. Right. And what were you 16, 15, 16 year teenager? And I, and I, I have, I think that's the only time in my life I ever saw my grandma mad. Um, and I said, she asked me something and I kind of hemmed and hawed around about it and said, well, mom's with, you know, somebody that she stayed in. And I just ended up telling her and I said, and he's a black man and holy cow. My sweet, sweet grandma hit the, well, all put a stop to that. Really? Yeah. And honestly, that's part of, I don't even remember. I just remember, I don't think it was much after that, that they weren't. Yeah. I'm sure Nana made a phone call in, but I also feel as if his family was probably probably so, cause here comes my mom and she had, her hair was blonde at the time. And here comes these three toe headed children. Yes. And not me, I'd already had dark hair because of my, my dad. And uh, I was the only one that had dark hair and um, but here's these three blonde little white kids. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm sure they had a similar reaction, but at that time I could have cared less. Right. Right. I really, I mean, your teenager, your whole social world just got blown up. And, and so you're, yeah, that's fine. His family's probably just trying to chill, have a low key existence in Portland. And all of a sudden they've got their own set of challenges. Like you're saying, their son made a choice, right? That would have impacted them. Right. At that point, I wasn't, uh, I didn't have enough to even care or even think of it that way. Yeah. What's wild to me is if you

That would have impacted them. Right. At that point, I wasn't, uh, I didn't have enough to even care or even think of it that way. Yeah. What's wild to me is if you were in Chicago or New York, probably would have been fine. Yeah. Cause they were much more progressive and more, you know, further along. Stear weren't allowed to be married legally. No, I know that that blows me away. Yeah. Crazy. I wish I could think, but I just saw a piece about that. The couple that was the first to get married, known interracial. Yeah. And, uh, and so it's just, it's that kind of difference in time. Yeah. And so I really feel like it was, um, it was a really rough, challenging time for my mom and I, because it's the first time I ever dug in about anything. And it kind of stood my ground about anything, uh, because before I always, I did what I was told. Well, so with her second husband, do you have any memory of her? Not your dad, but her, Annie Judy's dad. Do you have any memory of him? Uh, I remember a few things. Um, not about, I remember one thing about him specifically, but his parents were very, they were very, very stable people, very stable people. And they were very kind to both Judy and I, and they would have us come over and spend time with them spend the weekend. His mom was very funny. His mom was very jealous of my mom. And when we were young, she'd fix up for dinner and she'd say, I bet this is better than your mom's. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. And so, but they were very kind people and Annie Judy, um, you know, I always think that people survive things because of anchor people. And they, if they have one anchor person in their life, they can survive a lot for me. It was my grandma. Uh, and for, for, um, Judy, it was

people survive things because of anchor people. And they, if they have one anchor person in their life, they can survive a lot for me. It was my grandma. Uh, and for, for, um, Judy, it was her biological grandma. They were, uh, and, but more than anything, her grandpa, he was a wonderful man. He was an executive with general electric and she'll say, even now she always knew she wanted to marry a man that wore a suit to work. That's what he did. Yeah. And he, he was the kindest, they were both very, very kind to us. And, uh, she was always kind of nitpicking that stuff about my mom. Yeah. Um, but her dad had, uh, Trump alcohol and drug problems. Okay. And I, and I remember one time they had gotten an argument, Judy was a baby. And so I was probably by this time three, Judy was toddling and we were in, they lived in an apartment. I feel like it was like a duplex is what it felt like. And he had come home from work and they got into a very volatile argument and he push her against the refrigerator and had a knife in his hand and they were yelling and I, I don't believe for a minute he was intending to use it, but it was a very volatile argument. And, and I remember that, uh, I remember when he wasn't using anything, he, he was very kind to, you know, to any kind of me too. So, but I have very little memory of him. They weren't together all that long. And then what about your second step down then? So, uh, they, I don't know where they met. I remember he lived in Northeast Portland and I remember we would go visit him. There's some discussion about whether my mom was completely divorced from him or not. We've had some sibling discussions about time. And mostly my sister, Judy and I, we've had some sibling discussions because some numbers don't add up.

was completely divorced from him or not. We've had some sibling discussions about time. And mostly my sister, Judy and I, we've had some sibling discussions because some numbers don't add up. Like she might've still been married to Annie Judy's dad when she started dating Annie Kathy. So, you know, sometimes when you're an adult and you look back at numbers and you're like, Hmm, yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't really make sense. Yeah. And I always knew my mom had to get married with my dad because when I was, I think eighth grade and I asked her once, I says, did you have to get married? And she blew up at me and I thought, Oh, well that answers my question. Yeah. Why do you think she blew up that she, uh, because my mom, uh, in some ways didn't have a lot of impulse control in terms of reactionary. Uh, she'd get mad easily. Not so much, but you could push her buttons really easily. And, um, and, and so I just said, I said, that answers my question. Yeah. Because why would you react that way? Yeah. It wasn't true. Yeah. It was just a curiosity question for me. Yeah. Um, and so anyway, then they, uh, she and my stepdad got married and then, uh, Kathy was born and then two years later, John was born. Um, but he was very into and, and a common theme, ironically, except for my dad, alcohol was a common theme. Not for her. My mom never drank, which always puzzled me is how she can deal with all this. She never, they, all of their friends drank, they had parties and my mom never did. That's so interesting. Yeah. And, and I, my mom never did until she was, we were all grown. I think before she ever, wow. Right. Yeah. She never, ever did. And yet everybody around us, they were, um, in the motorcycles, um, different

my mom never did until she was, we were all grown. I think before she ever, wow. Right. Yeah. She never, ever did. And yet everybody around us, they were, um, in the motorcycles, um, different things I've done, you know, as an adult, where you, uh, go to a conference or something and they say, tell us three things about you that nobody would ever guess. And I, one of them is I always put, I grew up around motorcycle gangs because nobody would ever believe that. But the fact of the matter was that this was her third husband was in a motorcycle game. Yeah. Yeah. It was at the time, it was called a gypsy, uh, flying 15 club, which was part of gypsy jokers. And every summer they take, we'd stay with my grandma for two weeks and they would take a motorcycle trip down to California on motorcycles. Oh my gosh. And some of them were more into the underground stuff. Things we've pieced together as adults talking about stuff like, like drugs, drugs, drugs, primarily drugs. Okay. And, uh, and as I've read more about motorcycle gangs, I'm sure the violence part of it was there, but very clearly the alcohol and drugs. And of course, you know, we're, we're, um, the drugs were much more of a hidden thing than this. Yes. Really hit the sixties yet where it was right out in the open. And they would all be at your house. Like you grew up where there were motorcycle guys just in your house. Yeah. And we had one guy that as kids, we thought he was a novelty. He was crazy. And, um, I'm sure all of his family, so I'm not preaching any confidence guy. He's long gone. I'm sure his family is, his name was Rocky Ryan and he had no teeth because I'm sure he got him knocked out in a fight and he would come over and he was just loopy as

I'm sure his family is, his name was Rocky Ryan and he had no teeth because I'm sure he got him knocked out in a fight and he would come over and he was just loopy as all get out. And he lived, um, next door to a neighborhood that all the gypsies lived in, which you, if you're in Portland, you know, there's a lot of pockets of that. Yeah. And anyway, he was just this crazy guy, but motorcycle. Yeah. They all had motorcycles. They all worked on motorcycles. We all learned how to be a passenger on motorcycles at a very early age. And there were nobody ever were helmets. Right. Yeah. No, no, there, there was none of that. None of that. In fact, my sister, Kathy, her husband today is dumbfounded when she said, yeah, we, we learned how to ride on a motorcycle. We learned how to lean the right way, how to, you know, be a good passenger. And he asked her about helmets. She says helmets. Nobody had a helmet. And he'd be like, you are a child on the back of a motorcycle and no helmets. And these were dirt bikes. Right. Right. These are like your classic Norton triumph via say these are classy bikes. Right. And, and they worked on them and they, and they would, they would have parties at different people's houses. And I can remember one time when I was six, so kind of interject one quick thing. My stepdad, when I was six, he, they, they, my mom had asked my dad at the time because she had periodically talked to him afterwards. And I don't know why they made this intelligent decision, but they decided it would be better for Judy and I as we entered school. If we all had, if all of us kids had the same last name. And so he formally adopted us, Judy and I, oh, so that when we were in school, I, I'm astounded at their foresight in that. But so

If we all had, if all of us kids had the same last name. And so he formally adopted us, Judy and I, oh, so that when we were in school, I, I'm astounded at their foresight in that. But so that when we went to school, all four of us kids would have the same last name. Interesting. And so, but I remember one time when I was six and we lived at a house, which with Google Earth, I found the house not long ago. And it was in North Portland, little house, little ranch house. And there was four of us kids and they were having a party at our house and everybody was drinking. Everybody was drunk except my mom. Right. Of course. Right. Right. Right. But us kids were around and other people's kids were around and my mom was unfortunately very easy to get a rise out of. And my stepdad started bugging her about something. And she, they, so they started an argument, whatever it was about, they started this yelling argument and I thought, there's all these people here. This is embarrassing. They're yelling and fighting in the kitchen of this very tiny house. Yeah. Everybody's right there in the living room and the fight escalates and my mom starts pulling dishes out of the cupboard and there are no plastic dishes then pulling dishes out of the cupboard and throwing it at him and breaking all these dishes. And he's yelling and then he starts laughing, which just, of course, right. Right. I did her more and I just remember six and I was, I had just started school in first grade and I was mortified that that wasn't, I'd had that, did not have that word. Right. I remember the feeling of like, I cannot believe they're doing this. There's all these people, they're doing this in front of these people. Yeah. And finally some of their

I remember the feeling of like, I cannot believe they're doing this. There's all these people, they're doing this in front of these people. Yeah. And finally some of their friends kind of got in the middle and settled him down because he was drunk and the women settled my mom down because she was in that by now, crying and upset. And all I cared about was that they quit doing it because it was so embarrassing. That is so funny. But I bet with that whole motorcycle game mentality, that kind of stuff probably went on all the time. Oh, of course. You know, that chaos. Oh, of course. You know, and I'm pretty sure if there would have been social media at that time, the things they did were pretty wild. Yeah. Yeah. But nobody, nobody would. No, no, no, no, no. It's like straight out of a movie. It is. I can picture this. It is. Absolutely. It's just craziness. And one of their friends was a Portland city policeman. And yeah, and he in the thick of it all. So so that what did he do for a living? My dad? No, it's that done. He worked for the Portland Water Bureau. Okay. He was a compressor truck driver. So and he'd get called in the middle of the night, like when there was water main burst and he would do the jackhammer and stuff. Okay. He was also very good at stealing. A side note, if you're interested in hearing about this side note. Yeah. So, you know, you've been in. Have you seen the brass water fountains in downtown Portland? Okay. Well, because he would get called out at all hours, he middle of the night sometimes be rounding about. Yeah. He and I don't know who else was with him. And because he had a jack, they stole a water fountain and and sold it for the brass. Seriously. Yeah. He also would come by

rounding about. Yeah. He and I don't know who else was with him. And because he had a jack, they stole a water fountain and and sold it for the brass. Seriously. Yeah. He also would come by during the day with the truck and siphon off. He was very methodical about it. So nobody noticed gas missing from this city owned truck and siphon it off into our car. Oh my gosh. That's awesome. So that and you know, you figure gas was what? Ten cents a gallon. Yeah. Yeah. And we only had one car. So if my mom needed the car to take us kids anywhere, we would all bundle up to take him to work in the morning and then go back at night to pick him up. Okay. Yeah. So he'd stop by siphon off the gas to fill our tank, but he did it very regular. So it was never noticeable. So that's a wild period. It sounds like just the all of that. Yeah. It's very chaotic. And then they divorced. They divorced when I was 15. But and then was he out of your guys' lives after that? Uh, well, kind of sort of. So we were, um, we moved a lot. We moved around a lot. I think, I think I went to seven, eight schools by the time I graduated from high school. Now, how come because of they moved, they just moved rent by making rent, do you think? Well, they bought, I don't know that they was renting up till they, we bought this. He bought, he got drunk and bought this house. And when you look at it, it's the most, and your mom will laugh when she talks about it because it's the most ridiculous looking house. It's very skinny and long. There's four of us kids. It was a two bedroom house and two bedroom, one bathroom house. And we had never seen it until the night we moved in. And do you want to take a drink of water? Yeah. Is that okay? Oh yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

bedroom house and two bedroom, one bathroom house. And we had never seen it until the night we moved in. And do you want to take a drink of water? Yeah. Is that okay? Oh yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You cannot drink water. You can drink water while you're talking. Yeah. No, that's completely fine. Waterboarding, torture. And so when we moved into that house, I was in fourth grade and all, we're all four of you in one room. Uh, John was in, uh, had, I couldn't even, like, must've had twin bed or something in their room. Okay. And then my sisters and I had bunk beds in the other room and I was on the top and the two of them shared a bunk on the bottom. Wow. And, um, and so I was in fourth grade when we, when they moved there. Okay. Um, and so Judy and I went to the school, we could walk to the school and it only went to fourth grade. So then when I went to fifth grade, I went to the other school that I stayed at fifth through eighth grade. And that was, I often want to go over and measure how far it was to the school. Cause it was a long way. There's none of this sissy bus stops every two blocks thing. It's true. I'm sure it was a good mile. But everybody did it. So nobody thought anything about it. And, um, and there were no school buses. Right. Right. School. Right. And were there just no school buses period? That wasn't a concept yet. No, no. So kids either walked to school or if their parents had a car, they got dropped off. Pretty much nobody got dropped off. So everyone walked, you walked rain sleets. No, if school's open, you guys walk. School's open, you go and you walk and you, it was again, we didn't think anything odd about it because it's just what we did. Um, and then, so then we moved into that house. And so then I'm in fourth to fifth,

you go and you walk and you, it was again, we didn't think anything odd about it because it's just what we did. Um, and then, so then we moved into that house. And so then I'm in fourth to fifth, then I'm in fifth grade. Yeah. And so then things got really, for me, got really bad for about the next four years. So what happened? So, um, again, there's things you block out to protect yourself. And so I mean, that's kind of a little bit of my caveat, but between the ages of 10 and 14, I was sexually abused by my stepdad and it started and nobody, nobody knew. My mom did not know until I was mid forties. Um, and it started, uh, when I was early 10, um, and because we had one bed, one bedroom and it didn't have a shower, it had a bathtub and he would like, oh, I didn't know you were in here walking into the bathtub kind of thing. And, um, and I will say that to, to this day, even though it's in my head and I've been through counseling a lot, I have never, and I still can't articulate the exact type of abuse. You know what I mean? I just, I can't steal to this day, cannot say the words. Right. It's just, when I said earlier that, you know, that stuff's kind of becomes part of your DNA. Yeah. It's stuff that it still crops into my head and I can intellectualize it. And I mean, I have, I have an associate degree and a bachelor's degree in mental health, human services. I understand all the intellectual parts of it, but I still can't, um, I was not, uh, I was not raped, but pretty much everything up to that. And, but I, I still cannot say the words. They still are, are too. Traumatic. Yeah. I, I just, it's just too much. I just can't verbalize the words. It made you go mute when it came to that part of what like that part of your soul is mute. Yeah.

Traumatic. Yeah. I, I just, it's just too much. I just can't verbalize the words. It made you go mute when it came to that part of what like that part of your soul is mute. Yeah. It's in my head. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's very clearly, very clearly in my head, but it can't come out. It can't, the words cannot come out. And even through counseling, the words are not there. That's how deep the trauma was. Yeah. And how terrified your soul was. And again, I'm 10 when it starts. So this is 1954. So again, nobody knows the word abuse. No, nobody knows that word in a million years. Would you think you don't even know what it is, let alone that is happening to you. So surely nobody, and at the same time, all that time, and it, it escalates. And at that, and then being told, you cannot say a word because if you do, that you're going to be the one responsible for breaking this family apart. Why would I think otherwise I'm being told that, and I don't know anybody that's experiencing this. It's just such a, I was, it was just a nightmare. And I, I said all the things, no, and stop and all the, all this kind of stuff. And, and there was, there was a week that there, and it went on periodically. He'd always find excuses like, Oh, and the bedrooms were upstairs and he'd say like, Oh, I'll go check on the kids. Well, Judy and Kathy were asleep below me. And then one really horrible week, my mom was in the hospital. She'd been in a car accident. And my mom said, the only thing in flashback that she recalls is every time we came to the hospital, I'd lean over and whisper in her ear, please come home. But of course she'd have no idea who would, who would, and she, in hindsight, what she knew that flashback to her, the things different. And

I'd lean over and whisper in her ear, please come home. But of course she'd have no idea who would, who would, and she, in hindsight, what she knew that flashback to her, the things different. And then in the fifth grade, my teacher called her in and asked if anything was going on at home. And she said, no, everything's, everything's fine. Why? And I don't know exactly what I may have been doing. I don't know whether I was more, I was crying in class for no reason. I don't know, but whatever, or not focusing. I don't know. But he said, well, there's just something different from when she started school and something changed. And, and my mom, of course, couldn't identify anything. Nothing seemed to be wrong. And so that was, that was it. She had that conference and he was, he was a young teacher. He was my favorite teacher ever. And, and so I just kind of think back on that. And I think that somehow he just knew I needed that extra level of compassion. Yeah. Yeah. When nobody knew that was a thing. I can't imagine what an utterly isolating, I mean, put aside how horrendous and tragic and all traumatic and all that, but just what an isolating time that must have been in your life and lonely, because you have something happening to you that in society that has not defined you, that you have to find it. It's completely foreign. You probably felt it was your fault in some weird way. Oh, absolutely. Why is it happening to me and no one else? Right. Have you in your therapy processed how alone you were during that time? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. And of course, as time goes on and you learn more, you learn, I certainly was not the only person in that situation. Right. But again, if you feel like you're the only one, this is happening to, and

time goes on and you learn more, you learn, I certainly was not the only person in that situation. Right. But again, if you feel like you're the only one, this is happening to, and then why, and I'm trying, and when I look back on it now, I know there was a level of grooming and I always just assumed I was the easiest one to, to take anywhere because you know, you're the oldest, you've kind of her built a little more responsible. That's just how it goes. And, uh, but I'd always get to go with him if he'd go to the motorcycle shop or I'd always get to be the one that would go. And so when I look back on it, I know intellectually what it was. Right. I certainly didn't at the time. I just thought, Oh wow, lucky me. I get to go. Right. And I had fun doing that, but I never knew. Um, and it was, it was just so weird that because it was like, it was, uh, and it wasn't every night, but it was enough to where I was always on edge. Of course, because I don't know when it's going to happen. Yeah. And so night time was like a nightmare just waiting and daytime, everything was normal. Right. And this weird dichotomy of trying to function in that. Did you have trouble sleeping? Um, oh, I'm sure because I was on edge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did it cause issues with sleeping throughout your life? Do you think? No, I don't think so. I think during, I think during that time it did because I was, I was on guard. Right. Not that it mattered. Um, and then that burden of, I can't do anything about it because I can't be the one responsible for the family falling apart, even though it was very unhealthy to begin with, but you don't, you don't know that you just, I just was like, what in the world is happening? I couldn't imagine it. And the only reason it changed

unhealthy to begin with, but you don't, you don't know that you just, I just was like, what in the world is happening? I couldn't imagine it. And the only reason it changed is when I was 15, we moved from that crazy little house into another house that was bigger. And Judy and Kathy shared a bedroom. John had, there was a little alcove and they made a bedroom for him there. And I had my own room and it was the first time I'd ever had my own room. So there wouldn't have been an excuse to come on check on me. I'm 15 by now. Right. Right. And so, and so at that point, but I remember, and I really got in trouble for this and everybody always thought it was because they always tease me because I liked Oreos and they all thought it's because I didn't want anybody getting into my Oreos and I'd hide them in my bedroom. But I went up to the hardware store and I got a lock for my door and those kinds of sliding locks. And I went home and put it on myself and holy cow. And I never got in trouble for anything. I got in so much trouble for that. I had to take it off, return it to the hardware store. And everybody said, Oh, she just doesn't want anybody to get into her cookies. And honestly, for a while, I believe that story myself, right? But I know why I did it. Right. I wanted a lock on my door. And did it stop when you guys moved in that house? In that house, because before he could say he was going up to check on the girls, three girls, check on all of us. But this one, I'm 15 now, it's a little harder to do that. And, um, and we moved into that house mid my sophomore year. So I was, you know, had just barely turned 15. And so you can't tell the same story that way. And things were getting really volatile with them. And they were

sophomore year. So I was, you know, had just barely turned 15. And so you can't tell the same story that way. And things were getting really volatile with them. And they were fighting all the time. And in then I was 15 when they got divorced. So it was right before they got divorced, had it stopped. But it was really kind of the logistics of the house that wasn't so easy to pull off. Right. I mean, thank God. Yeah, at least. Yeah. So during that time, did you ever tell anyone? Never. I never told anybody, because right. I was told not to. I wreck everybody's life. How many women your age, do you think suffered through similar situations during their childhood? I feel like more than you could imagine. Because I, um, I thought of another situation that makes me think of just one more reason of how widespread it probably was. When I was 12, my aunt and uncle, my mom's brother and his wife, they had at the time had three or four kids at that time. And they were going to the beach. We had a friend who had a house at the beach and they were going to go to the beach for a week with another couple who had a lot of children. And so they had me come to be a babysitter. So if the adults wanted to go out, and I kind of forgot about this till we had been talking about things. And so I was 12 and I went with them to take care of the kids, kind of helped them take care of all the kids and at the beach. And then if the adults wanted to go out for dinner, would they pay you? I think they just might trip the trip to the beach was my, but you were working. Yes, of course. Of course. Okay. And I'm 12. And there's like, there was, I think eight kids between the families. It's crazy. Well, nowadays that's a $50 a day.

were working. Yes, of course. Of course. Okay. And I'm 12. And there's like, there was, I think eight kids between the families. It's crazy. Well, nowadays that's a $50 a day. Yeah. And it was a 16 year old. It wouldn't be a 15 year old. No, no, when I started babysitting, it was 25 cents an hour. And labor. Yeah. And so we went, I did that. I went to him and I had fun with the kids. And in my mind, it was like, whoo, what a relief. I get a break. Yeah. You know, I, and I didn't know if anything would happen. I get a break from the on edge during the night. And so they went out to dinner. Everybody went out to dinner and ice was on this little single bed thing. And you know, we're all over the house in the kind of like this little alcove thing in the speech house. And then the adults went out to dinner. I've gotten all the kids to bed. Everything was great. I wake up in the middle of the night and this guy, this friend of theirs is all over grabbing at me. No way. And I thought my first thought was, I don't know what I've done to deserve this. I'm trying to get away. And this, and it was a very close family friend of theirs. And again, I never, but he, and I remember saying to him, can't, because I woke up to feeling him all over me and I could get away from me. And I said it loud enough that he knew even drunk that it would wake somebody up. There were so many of us. Yeah. And he look over me, goes mumbling and leaves. And I just, I couldn't even go back to sleep. I thought, I don't, I couldn't even get a break when you got away. And that, and I remember thinking, Oh, thank God, I can go for a week, play with the kids, have fun with the kids and get a break. And then boom, the same thing. And, and so it just, when you ask

thinking, Oh, thank God, I can go for a week, play with the kids, have fun with the kids and get a break. And then boom, the same thing. And, and so it just, when you ask how many women, I can only imagine how many women have that that's her experience. All of us at very levels being told, don't say anything. Don't say anything. You'll, you'll ruin the family. You'll get me in trouble. I'll go to jail and you know, and it'll be your fault. Always ending with it'll be your fault. Right. And, and so, yeah, so I'm, I imagine a very large number of women, especially from your generation, because there was zero space for anyone to acknowledge it or for any, or for the victim to even tell anyone, even a teacher, no, it did not exist. It did not exist. That space did not exist. And the only reason I ever said anything, um, fast forward, my brother had gotten into drugs and alcohol at a very young age. And it was always because my parents were divorced and he didn't have a father and or, or, or, and I sound hard about it, but I am. Yeah. And, and my sister was far more, my sister just below me was far more compassionate to him than I was. The minute he started with the drugs and alcohol, I had children by the time. And I, I didn't want, I didn't want anywhere near me because I'm enough of a generation that I didn't get sucked into the sixties. Right. And I had a very strong sense of right and wrong, you know, I just, I couldn't, and also it was very scary. It was just coming in the sixties, the whole sex drugs and rock and roll thing. And it was scary and drugs. I don't want any part of it. So I never would allow him around my house at all. And, but my sister was more compassionate, more, um, and they were closer in age and they were quite frankly, they were

want any part of it. So I never would allow him around my house at all. And, but my sister was more compassionate, more, um, and they were closer in age and they were quite frankly, they were closer. Uh, I, like I said, I always thought like an old soul, my sisters used to tease me and they'd be on the bottom bunk. They'd push their feet up when we were in that, push it up until I yelled. And then I'd be the one to be yelled at. Right. Or I'd be telling them, you guys need to act your age. Well, they were, I wasn't right. You know, right. And I knew I always felt older. Right. So, um, so my brother would often or semi often stay with my sister. And at this time she, she had two kids and she had a daughter who was, I think at the time she was in middle school, my stepdad's father was also an accused sex abuser. He had served some time for that. I don't like in jail. Yeah. And I don't know any of the circumstances around that. It just was kind of one of those blips in conversation. Right. And so then knowing full well his son was a sex abuser. Right. And not really knowing enough about it, generational addictions. I didn't know whether that would have affected my brother. Right. And so all I was worried about was my niece. I thought, I cannot not say anything if my niece was going to be in danger. Right. And so I told my sister and it was, she didn't believe me. And she, at first she did not believe me. And I said, you know, you think I would be saying this. I said, I'm worried about your daughter. And she said, Oh, he would never do that. And I go, all I'm asking is that you're careful and that you keep your eyes open and that you're careful. And if she says anything to you, you listen to her and look for any signs,

do that. And I go, all I'm asking is that you're careful and that you keep your eyes open and that you're careful. And if she says anything to you, you listen to her and look for any signs, not accusing him in anything. But I'm just telling you. And and she she once she settled down from it, she she asked me more questions, of course, which I was not totally detailed about. Right. But and she finally did believe me. And you told her what his dad had done. Yeah, not detailed, but that he has actually this. Yes. And I said, I'm only worried for her. Yeah, I don't. I'm not trying to make you hate him, whatever. I'm just saying, be alert. Right. And and I don't believe for a minute that that carried down to my brother because he I just too many in all of his crazy addiction faults. And it was deep. He really had a big heart and didn't have I mean, believe me, I could sense it if he did. Right. Right. And he didn't he didn't I know that was never an issue. And the addiction part for him played out probably more in the drugs than the alcohol. Yeah. Very not on that side. No, very early on alcohol at 12 heroin at 15. Wow. But so wait, was this when you guys you were 15 when they got divorced? How old would he have been when they got divorced? 15, 13, 11, nine. Okay, so they got divorced when he's nine. And a few years later, he's drinking. Yeah, he's drinking. And the only reason I know specifically about that is fast forward many years he was in a drug and alcohol program that was part of the Oregon State Penitentiary. And they one of the many things they had to do was what they do in AA. You had to do your 12 steps. And part of that was detailing your addiction from the time you started from the money it costs, which is extraordinary to

they had to do was what they do in AA. You had to do your 12 steps. And part of that was detailing your addiction from the time you started from the money it costs, which is extraordinary to the people that you hurt either stealing from or they had to detail their own addiction path. And I read his story, where he said he started drinking alcohol at 12. And again, this is the beginning of the 60s where the drug culture really is big start right being big, right. And he was at the fort, you know, with that generation. And, and so and then heroin by 15. And when he was, I think he was just past 18. And he had stolen a Social Security check out of or some sort of check, I thought it was Social Security out of somebody's mailbox. And he got caught. And again, I wasn't around it. By then I was moved out. Yeah, but he got sent to federal prison. Because he tried to cash the federal check, the federal check. And so, and he was very good looking kid. So here's his kid. When you look back on it, that's 18 in federal prison, right? And not a good place. And so for survival, you learn to be tougher than the person that's trying to come after you. Right. And it's it's brutal. How long was he in federal prison? He was in and out. I don't know how long at that particular time, but he was in and out of prison for the better part of his life. So that the check was the first time the first 18. Where do you think he got the alcohol? Your hat, the house? Well, when my know, because when, when just people find I mean, I honestly don't know, because again, my mom never drank. Right. And so once my stepdad was gone, there was no alcohol in the house. So friends or something. But then heroin, but that's like that's a jump. That's not from

never drank. Right. And so once my stepdad was gone, there was no alcohol in the house. So friends or something. But then heroin, but that's like that's a jump. That's not from 12 to 15 alcohol marijuana. Right. But still, the heroin, but it was becoming more prevalent and available. But it's also very expensive. Yeah. And so you can't you can't handle that kind of addiction without getting the money somewhere. So then you steal. Because did he work? Not then. He's had jobs over the years, but they haven't lasted a really long time. He's done truck driving jobs, you know, as an adult. But he was in and out of prison in a lot of those formative years. So you might go in as a kid who's addicted, but messing with that stuff. But you don't come out the same. No, because you don't know what happened to him in there. I he talked about some of it. And it's and what happens to if you don't fight for yourself and and how brutal it is. And you have to you have to learn to be tougher than the than the next guy, because otherwise you're going to get you're going to get raped. You're going to get murdered. You're going to get any number of things. So he went in as kind of just this kid that's messing around with drugs and alcohol and then came out a career criminal basically pretty much. Yeah. And he was in and out. And like I say, I kept my distance. So I'm not even except for this story. And I've forgotten somebody wrote it was just mind boggling. But he had to even document the amount of money he spent over the years. It's just astounding. Yeah. I mean, millions. Wow. Yeah, it's just it's astounding. And it's all you can't get that money unless you steal. Yeah. Yeah. And this was through the 60s and the hippie movement and all that. Yes. And then into

Wow. Yeah, it's just it's astounding. And it's all you can't get that money unless you steal. Yeah. Yeah. And this was through the 60s and the hippie movement and all that. Yes. And then into the 70s. And Portland is a drug culture town to some degree. Not how it was different than how it is. Right. It's not there was there was Portland and then that underground drug culture. Yeah. Now it's like, do whatever you want drugs, whatever. Yeah. It's not how people picture it now. But then it was very different. And you align with those people and you become tougher than the next guy because that's your only survival mechanism. You mean you do horrible things in prison. But if you don't do them to somebody else, they're going to do them to you kind of a thing. Not right. But it's just yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Code is the code. As a matter of fact, later, not too long before he died, he had made the comment. There was something on the news about prisoners and stuff. He could, you know, he says they just don't have any loyalty or code of code of honor in prison nowadays. They're all just and I'm like, OK, from somebody who's never been in trouble like that or never. I said, you know how funny that sounds to me that you're saying. But he said, no, he said there's so much more hard and so much more violent now. Yeah. And even though there was that it's survival of the fittest in its roughest form. Right. Well, I think nowadays they're very gang filled. Yes. So there's gangs, you know, or cliques, but they're gangs. So and probably wasn't quite as gang infested. No, it wasn't. Back then. Yeah, it was just who's tougher than the next. Yeah. So when they got divorced in year 15, he's still young. Yeah. And the girls are still young, too. And then

it wasn't. Back then. Yeah, it was just who's tougher than the next. Yeah. So when they got divorced in year 15, he's still young. Yeah. And the girls are still young, too. And then you graduate from high school, I assume at 18. Yeah. Our junior, my junior year, we moved. We couldn't keep. And when I think back, I think our mortgage, we stayed in the house, but I think the mortgage payments were something like eighty two dollars. Oh, my God. You know, it's just crazy. I'd love that. You know, kidding. But we couldn't afford to stay in the house. OK. Was she? Well, she went to work. Right. Right. We talked about that. And and then we moved into these triplexes place in Milwaukee. And we were there. We all kind of again crammed in. And then from there, we moved again and to some apartments right off. I went to Cleveland and the apartments were right near there where we live. That's I was going to say, did you have to change high schools through all the I didn't I refused to change high school. I was kind of like I was battling an uphill battle everything. And I said, I've got one more year of high school and not changing schools. And so I graduated from Cleveland. I focused. Nobody ever said college to me. No, but I never knew that was an option. That's what I was going to ask you. Were you raised that college was even the word never was in the house. It was never the word. And there was there was never and I was a decent student, but no. And I think that not even a school counselor ever said, hey, have you thought about this? What about any of your friends? Were they talking about college? Not the ones I was closest to. They weren't. But it was very definitive that there was the college kids, the people that were

this? What about any of your friends? Were they talking about college? Not the ones I was closest to. They weren't. But it was very definitive that there was the college kids, the people that were going to college and the people that were going to get a job. You didn't wait around you had you did something right. You had a plan to do something right out of high school and it was either college or work. Were the college kids the rich kids? Pretty much. What's the what's the age difference between you and her mom, Dana? Dan is three years younger than me. Okay. Three years younger. She talked about that, like how there was really no concept. There was she knew people when she did know some. I think it was changing a little bit because she said she did know some people that were going to go. I knew a lot about when. Yeah. But she and I have talked about that. And she kind of had the same thought process I did. I took all business courses in high school because I knew my only offer was to get a job. And she took it. She did the same thing. And my typing. She talks about typing and all that. And and so when I graduated from high school, I was really well qualified for a secretary. Yeah. But right before I had graduated, I applied to the state of Oregon for a job. I had this civil service. Yeah. And I I applied because that my grandma worked in civil service many years later when she worked and I wanted to do what she did. So I applied for civil service and it was the state of Oregon. And they hired me and they said, can you start right now? And I said, well, I'm actually still in high school. And I said, I graduate June 12th. So could I start June 14th? I kind of just needed one in between. Wow. And and I started June 14th. What year did you

said, well, I'm actually still in high school. And I said, I graduate June 12th. So could I start June 14th? I kind of just needed one in between. Wow. And and I started June 14th. What year did you graduate high school? 1962. Okay. Kennedy was still alive, right? He was assassinated in 63. Okay. So you start working immediately pretty much out of high school. And where was that located? It was downtown or Portland, downtown Portland, I was making two hundred and fifty dollars a month and rode the bus to and from work. And it was down on Fifth Avenue up up a ways from town. Okay. But it's still down. Well, right across the street in St. Mary's High School. Okay. You would have a point of reference about right, right, right. But it's downtown Portland for all practical purposes. And you lived at home. So I still lived at home. And then very soon after that, my best friend from grade school, we had gone to different high schools, but we had always talked to when to get an apartment together. And so I graduated in June, went to work June 14th, and she got a job with the telephone company. Oh, my gosh. And like one of those operators, not an operator, but she worked in where selling ads, phone ads for the phone book. Oh, wow. Yeah. And so we we were so excited because now we were out of high school. And so in September, we moved in together in an apartment and we split the rent. The rent was eighty four dollars a month. Wow. And we split the rent and she and I lived together for a couple of years. So what was that like? Because that would have been your first time having your really your own space away from the chaos of your childhood. It was wonderful. Did you I mean, was it what did you just kind of exhale? Yeah,

would have been your first time having your really your own space away from the chaos of your childhood. It was wonderful. Did you I mean, was it what did you just kind of exhale? Yeah, it was really wonderful. I still I still like when I first got my job because my mom needed help financially. And so I I really loved the fact I was able to help them. I bought the girls at that time there were these Pendleton circle skirts, which only the wealthy kids had. Yeah. And so I bought each of them a skirt and I felt really good that I could help them financially. And and so and then my friend and I lived together for a couple of years and then she had met a guy and they were going to get married. And so I moved in with my mom and the apartment they were in, which was not far for a little bit. And then I then moved out to another apartment with some other people. But I lived the same job this whole time. Yes, I had that for about eight years. And then I took another job still within the state for for a short while. And then during that job is when I got married. I got married in 1965. Okay, so you had your time with your best friend, that awesome apartment. I'm sure you just love that little dinky podunk one bedroom apartment. And we had one bed in there. We had no room for anything else. And we would take we were both afraid of the dark. I had a pretty good reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we would both take turns. Who was the one that had to turn the light out? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. But you probably loved every second. Yeah, it was just fun. Yeah. And was it hard for that brief moment when you had to go back and live at home again before you moved out again with it wasn't it wasn't too bad. It was my mom and the kids were there. They all three of

was it hard for that brief moment when you had to go back and live at home again before you moved out again with it wasn't it wasn't too bad. It was my mom and the kids were there. They all three of them. And at that time, my mom wasn't working. And it was a stretch of time. You know, now people are judgment coming. People are career well, career welfare. Right. Okay. Yeah, we were on welfare and commodity foods. But during that time, because where I worked was vocational rehabilitation, and it retrained people. Mm hmm. And they could just, you know, get to know people. And they said, I said, well, my mom, you know, needs to find a job. But you know, she doesn't have any training, you know. And so they started asking. And anyway, long story short, came up that she had one eye. And even though it didn't disable her through life, it was enough to qualify her. And so she was able to go to secretarial school, which is what they still had. Yeah. And this it through the state, because it was considered a handicap. Okay. And so she was able to get that schooling that they paid for. And we were on welfare. We got the commodity foods. And I think big giant bricks. That's okay. I like government cheese, government, government, cheese, government, butter, government, spam, right, big bags of rice, you know, yes, we did some amazing things with it. But but we have times where we did go to school hungry. I mean, stomach pain hungry. And I'm not saying that as a pity thing. But I really, really believe that every negative thing I've ever had to go through has given me a compassion for somebody who's maybe going through it today. So when somebody says, you know, I'm so hungry, my stomach hurts, there's a big difference from my stomach hurts.

given me a compassion for somebody who's maybe going through it today. So when somebody says, you know, I'm so hungry, my stomach hurts, there's a big difference from my stomach hurts. And I can't concentrate at school. Right. We were at that point for a while, because if you run out of commodity food before the end of the month, tough being juror just so would you have days where you guys wouldn't have anything to eat, like for the whole day? Yeah. Yeah. And if we had like they had school lunches for at the high school anyway, for 15 cents, you could get a cup of mashed potatoes and gravy, or a cup of rice and gravy, you know, so they didn't have like free lunches. No, no, no, free lunch was not a thing. And was there? Did people know like, I'm sure you're a teenager, you probably weren't telling anyone, right? Oh, no, I would have been ashamed. Oh, yeah. No, you're just, you're just, you know, anybody to know that. Yeah. When I was when we had moved into that apartment, it was a few blocks from school. So I walked to school. But prior to moving there, there were some days I missed school because I didn't have the 15 cent bus fare to get to school, and to get home again. And it was too far to walk. But you know, those times make you appreciate what you have. Yeah, you know, I never think of those times as poor me, I always think of them. I do know to some degree, not for children starving for very long periods, I do know what that feels like actual hunger pains, right? And, and so, but we were on welfare until she got through school. And then my mom had such anxiety. So they said, Okay, you have to take the civil service exam and a typing test. Because we have a job we could hire you here for. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, they must have given

my mom had such anxiety. So they said, Okay, you have to take the civil service exam and a typing test. Because we have a job we could hire you here for. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, they must have given her that test four times. And she'd get so freaked out, she'd fail it every time she not that she couldn't do it. Right, right, right anxiety. Yeah. And so they finally did something where she was typing, they gave her something to do in typing, and she didn't know she was taking the test. Okay, okay. Yeah. And so they hired her there in that office. And so for a while, we worked in the same office. Oh, wow. Okay, which had his plus and minus. Right, right, right. Then I'm 19. And I'm, you know, going out with friends and stuff like that. Never anything bad. I was, I was too kind of too naive to get into bad. Yeah, I just am not confident enough to be do anything kind of outrageous. Right, right. I was always kind of fearful. And, and also believe it or not, I was also extremely quiet. And all through high school, I was very I was afraid of everybody. When when, and I was very aware of the caste system in high school, when Judy started as a freshman, and I was a junior before, and she's very, she was very much more outgoing than me at that time, and made friends with everybody. And I told her I said, when you go to school, there's certain people you can't talk to, just what do you mean? I said, Well, you can't just go up and talk to the cheerleading girls, or you can't talk to these people. And of course, she that was all the challenge. She needed. So she just she made tons of friends, you know, right, right, right, not me. But so what was the who what was the group when you you lived briefly with Annie Jean after you lived

So she just she made tons of friends, you know, right, right, right, not me. But so what was the who what was the group when you you lived briefly with Annie Jean after you lived with your friend the apartment, then you said you moved into an apartment with other friends. Yeah, I so so my, I wanted to move out my mom's, because I just I had a taste of that independence. Yeah. And once again, we were four kids in a two bedroom apartment, right? Now we're like getting to be more adult. Yeah. And so I wanted and so a girl I randomly knew from work, they were, there's going to be three other girls in me, only one of which I kind of sort of knew. Yeah. And we're going to get an apartment. And so we did it was up the street from where I was living. And it was a two bedroom apartment. So two girls in each room. And so the person I was sharing an apartment with, I'd never met in my life. And so we were there for a little bit, everybody contributed a little bit every month for groceries, that kind of thing. And then it all blew up, because one of the girls, when it was her turn to go buy groceries, she was just taking the money and spending it on other things. So it was just that, yeah, yeah, yeah, craziness. And so I lived there. And then after that was when I stayed with my grandma for a while. Okay. And this was like the second time you'd stayed with your with Nana. Yeah. So she so you had had those little pockets of sometimes same with her. I used to stay with her on weekends a lot. And it was just such a sweet break. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And but this was I lived with her for several months. And then how did you meet your husband, your ex husband? I, one of the girls I worked with had started dating this guy. And it was a good

I lived with her for several months. And then how did you meet your husband, your ex husband? I, one of the girls I worked with had started dating this guy. And it was a good friend of his. Okay. And so you were set up. Set us up on the day. Yeah. How old were you? 19. Yeah, very young. And how old was he? He's like nine months older than me. Okay. Just older, just older than that. And was it instant for you? Did you like him right away? I was very hesitant. There's a whole lot of value in hindsight. You can't do a thing about it. But it's awareness is interesting. That also was the era that girls either went to college, found a husband, or went to work and found a husband. And they were all everybody around me was getting married. Everybody around me was getting married at 19. 19. Yeah. Yeah. And because of all of my other experiences, I had this horrible feeling that nobody was ever going to want me and that I was going to be left behind. Yeah. And that was a horrible way to approach it. It wasn't fair to him. But I felt like I can make this work. You know, I can make this work. There were characteristics there that at the time I didn't recognize as red flags. Many years later, I could see them. And also, I didn't put any stock into his family dynamics. I thought it didn't matter. Because we were different. And I know, I realized later, some of that is his history and how his family certain members of his family dealt with things. And I didn't think that ever had an impact on I just didn't think that would right? Why would that matter? That was them. Right? I didn't I didn't see any of that negative family dynamic is ever affecting me. Right. And so and my friend, who set us up, she and then we got engaged. But how we even got engaged,

didn't see any of that negative family dynamic is ever affecting me. Right. And so and my friend, who set us up, she and then we got engaged. But how we even got engaged, we were driving down the street and he says, we should get married. And I'm like, Okay, right? You know, I couldn't say no. It was the things I didn't know how to say no. Right. And even with something like that. And oh, my goodness, my friend was so mad. Well, how long had you been dating? I hear maybe, maybe because we got married when I was 21. Okay. 21. And did your friend not like him? He had previously dated one or her other friends that she had gone to high school with and everything. And she did not think he was a good fit for me. But I did not know how to say no. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't know how to say no. And, and, and the bar for what you felt you deserved was low. Oh, yeah. Oh, you wouldn't. You like you just said you almost were like taking what you could get because you were afraid that was your one shot. Yeah, because I really did not think anybody else would ever be interested. You know, so you guys get married. Mm hmm. Get your get a home. I soon get a house. Yeah, we actually bought a house just a few months before we got married. But of course, nobody moved in together until they got married. So right, we moved in right after we got married. Okay. And I had for just those few months before I had moved back into where my mom and the other kids were living, because they saw it like I was leaving things were changing. Right, right. So they wanted me to come back and live there for just a few months. Was she was Annie Jean happy about you getting married to him? She was but, but, you know, again, not, not saying it in a negative way against her. But

back and live there for just a few months. Was she was Annie Jean happy about you getting married to him? She was but, but, you know, again, not, not saying it in a negative way against her. But again, she had a very low bar. Right. Of what she wouldn't, she didn't have the experiences to say, you might want to think about this. You know, what about this with his family, because they would cut people off in their family if they didn't agree with them about things, right? His mom was telling when we were just going together. And his mom was telling me a story about this thing his aunt did, and she was just bitter about it. And I, in my all my naivety, I said, Oh, my gosh, did this, did this just happen this week? No, that was 20 years ago. And I haven't spoken to her since. Right. It's that kind of mentality. And it was his mom's side of the family that is very much that mentality. His dad's side, first generation Norwegian here in America. Wonderful people, wonderful people, but overshadowed by that. Right, right. So and so there were a lot of red flags that I just chose to ignore because they wouldn't impact me. Because you also saw, okay, this I'm going to get married. And I'm going this is now my future what I'm supposed to do. So how long were you married before you had your first child? I was 25. I'm telling you, I fought for that. Because we talked about kids before we were married. And once we got married, he said, I've changed my mind. I don't think I want to have kids. He said, I'd rather we could just spend money on things that we want and not have kids. And I was, Andy Judy could tell you many a time I was crying the blues to her about that, like, oh my gosh. And again, I didn't have I didn't have any confidence. I

And I was, Andy Judy could tell you many a time I was crying the blues to her about that, like, oh my gosh. And again, I didn't have I didn't have any confidence. I didn't have enough self esteem. I wouldn't have pushed back on anybody as far as like, in today's world, you may say, that's cause enough. We it's a huge disagreement and a change in what we initially. And I was devastated. Yeah, I was devastated. So you viewed it as that's how it's going to be. For a long time. Not that you could challenge what he's saying. Yeah, for a long time. But I kept always saying, don't you think we could have kids now? It was always permission based. Right? You know, permission based. Yes. And I'd say, don't you think we could have? I really want kids. I don't think we need to do that. We were doing fine now. And I mean, it was and of course, I was on birth control pills because, you know, right, the 60s birth control came in and so I was on birth control pills. And I finally had talked him into into about three, four years, I think it was about and I finally, I think he got tired of me begging. Yeah. And I kind of think he thought nothing would happen if I got off, went off pills. Like, why would he think I don't? He's very, very, very controlling. And so if you're controlling enough, you really do think you can control every situation. And if I don't want to have kids, we're not going to have kids. Right. You know, because it's that God complex. Yeah. Yeah. Within three months, I was pregnant. And I could not have been happier. I could not have been happier. I would say, I mean, I'm very content in my life now. I would say, but I have been the happiest in my life being pregnant with both my kids and the years of raising them. I didn't work

content in my life now. I would say, but I have been the happiest in my life being pregnant with both my kids and the years of raising them. I didn't work during the years until they were 10 and 12. And those were the happiest years I've ever had being a mom to them. I just without question, was it really healing for you? It was, it probably impacted why I felt I had to be the perfect, tried to be the perfect mom, you know, I'm sure they have different things about it, but I'm very close with my son now, which I'm eternally grateful for. And, but I really love that time. And then so my daughter was born when I was 25, and my son was born when I was 27. Okay. And so your home, you're raising them, you're in heaven, probably for the first time in your life. This is like amazing. And in the meantime, it was still a challenging marriage. He still was very controlling. And you know, there's a real cause and effect of that too, because the more controlling he got there, there was a lot of never any physical abuse never. But there was a lot of emotional and mental abuse and making you feel less than Yeah, that that happened with the kids too. I mean, there was things with the kids that he did that too. But things like, and you know, I'm kind of OCD, I like everything just so right. And so there was that the house is a mess. I can't we can't have anybody over because the house is so filthy. And we had a dog. So dog care is always around. If you have a dog, yeah, we allow and just those things are at the top of the refrigerator is filthy. And, you know, and just this constant, constant, constant, you know, and so you and I did talk to him about counseling. And he said, Well, if you want to go fine, that's fine. But I don't have any

you know, and just this constant, constant, constant, you know, and so you and I did talk to him about counseling. And he said, Well, if you want to go fine, that's fine. But I don't have any reason to go. If you want to go, that's fine. And meantime, the alcohol is escalating. Okay. And he's a narcissist. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. And so the alcohol is escalating. And so forward and there was he put perfection on everybody who was very hard on our son. And punished him irrationally for things, you know, made the punishment. One time he punished him, he'd gotten in my son had gotten in a fight at school with this kid who I might add was really a jerk, says his mother, but he was because I by this time I had worked a little bit at the school and volunteering. I knew this kid. Yeah. And he'd gotten a fight. And so he got grounded for 30 days. And he had chores every day. And my husband told him that if he did everything he was supposed to, he would take him off grounding early. And so he did everything he was supposed to without question and never got off, never got off, never got off. And I think day 29, he let him off the hook. But during all this time, with all the drinking, I had started taking just I love school. So I had started taking a couple classes. By this time when there were 10 and 12, I went back to work for the middle school or for the school district, because I wanted to have their vacations, their days, if there was a snow day, it would be my day off, too. Yeah. And so I took the job as a school secretary. And I loved being around the kids. It was so fun. And and so I started pinging away at some classes with no end game in sight. Just I liked going to school. And I was really glad later that I did, because it

being around the kids. It was so fun. And and so I started pinging away at some classes with no end game in sight. Just I liked going to school. And I was really glad later that I did, because it gave me the foundation for when I needed to support myself when we got divorced. But but he was just he was just so hard on it. But with all the drinking, I started going, somebody had said, oh, you should try going to Al-Anon. And I had to even say, what is that? Yeah. And I went and it was shocking, because I think I went five times before I said a word. But the first time there, this lady sitting by me was talking and telling my story. And then the person leading that said, you know, you didn't cause it, you can't control it. And you can't hear it. And in my head, I mean, I'm like, what do you mean I didn't cause it? He said that he drinks because I do this. What do you mean I didn't cause it? Sure, I did. Because he told me I did. And I know I can cure it, because he said, if I would just keep the house better, if I would just do this better, he wouldn't have to drink. So yeah, I can cure it if I just do. And so I truly believe that. And so as I continued on with this, I learned so much more about alcoholism, and how it impacted me. Right. And I remember them saying that generally, it's the codependent person who starts getting sick before the alcoholic. And fast forward to the time I decided to leave, I started getting stomachaches. And so I really started thinking. And I also was so obsessed with having a good home for my kids, to a fault that I thought, I can't leave. Because we'd be in an apartment, because he told me if I left, he'd get the house. And I believed it. And I didn't want to raise my

home for my kids, to a fault that I thought, I can't leave. Because we'd be in an apartment, because he told me if I left, he'd get the house. And I believed it. And I didn't want to raise my children as apartment kids. Because I thought who knows who they'd have to be around. Right, I've lived in that environment. Right, right. And so who knows who they have as their friends, whereas right now, if I can just stick with it from the time I can remember thinking if I can just stick with it 10 more years, and then if I can just stick with it seven more years, they got the neighborhood kids, they got the house. Never ever thinking. Kids are so much smarter than you think. And they were, it was a disservice to them. They were being hurt too. And it never, I just thought if I keep it good for them. You were viewing the house as this, this will take care of everything if we can just stay here. And the house is perfect. And everything's perfect. Neighborhoods perfect. The friends are perfect. Two parent house. Yeah, two parent house. You know, we look good from the outside, you know, so everything, the kids will be fine. And then once they're out of the house, I broke the cycle. And now that I'll leave not knowing that the kids are experiencing what you're experiencing, the abuse, the utter, utter horrific controlling, which is abuse. Obviously, I mean, he was getting off on how much he was controlling all of you guys. It's, it's, it's, he flipped out when I crazy kind of get that when I said I was leaving, and well, there was a reason for that. But so in the middle of this, then my daughter moved out and got married at 18 very young, she's still married, but and you guys were very close, very close, very close. All through

that. But so in the middle of this, then my daughter moved out and got married at 18 very young, she's still married, but and you guys were very close, very close, very close. All through school. Yeah. And, and he used to be really hard on her. She's, she's extremely bright and was an excellent student. She didn't get anything less than an A from seventh grade on. But one time in her sophomore year, one semester of typing class, she got a B and the school called me and said, what is going on? And I, I don't know what you mean. He said, she broke down in tears and was sobbing because she got that B. Well, she was going to a private Christian school that I was paying for because that's where she wanted to go to school. So I was working to pay for it. And my husband was very mad about that because he said the amount of tuition of this year, I could have bought a new truck. And so he was so hard on her and he ripped her a new one when she came home and he was yelling at her because she got this B. Right. And he says, I'm not paying all that money for you to go to school so you can get bad grades first B and all this time and B is not bad. And I was working to pay for it. Right. And so it just, it puts such pressure on her. Yeah. It was really hard. And then he was very unreasonable with my son. But during this time, so I had learned a lot from Al-Anon and I was just like, eyes were opening that something wasn't right. During this time, my brother was still, he had been back in prison, Oregon state prison this time. And they, a counselor from the prison, oh, he sent a letter and he apparently had sent a letter to Judy Caffe and I, my sisters and I, saying he was involved in a drug and alcohol program.

And they, a counselor from the prison, oh, he sent a letter and he apparently had sent a letter to Judy Caffe and I, my sisters and I, saying he was involved in a drug and alcohol program. And would we be interested in supporting him in that emotionally, like whatever? I said, heck no. And you're on your own buddy. I've like got my own issues going on here. Yeah. And through the course of things, Judy and Kathy had both been burned by him, even though Judy and him have always been the closest, but they had been burned by him in a lot of ways through the whole drug thing. And so I just ignored it. Well, then a counselor called from there and said who she was. And she said, it's a drug and alcohol program for incarcerated prisoners. They come and stay there. They're still incarcerated. And I said, well, here's the thing. And so for me, the more she talked about counseling, for me, I kind of selfishly thought, huh, that might be some free counseling that I can take advantage of. Right. And so and my mom was going to be involved in my mom was like beyond thrilled because now I finally was going to be involved. Right. And help with John and help with John. Yeah. And so I told the counselor, I said, I would like to talk to you first and tell you my viewpoint. I said, I'm not jumping into this without you understanding where I'm coming from. Yeah, this is not a blanket. So I went down to the end to the prison was Oregon State Hospital grounds where they were having this program. And I met with her and I said, you know, I said, I spent a good part of my life listening about poor John this and poor John that. And he didn't have a dad. And I said, well, the whole time the dad that everybody was lamenting he didn't have was

spent a good part of my life listening about poor John this and poor John that. And he didn't have a dad. And I said, well, the whole time the dad that everybody was lamenting he didn't have was causing hell for me. And I said, so I'm sorry, I don't I'm not sympathetic. I said, I'm going through a difficult time myself right now. And I said, if any of this would be helpful to me personally, and if he and if I'm able to tell him straight up, I will not pull any punches on telling him how I feel. And she said, that is exactly what we want. She said, too often the family members cannot stop enabling their person, they'll be involved in the programs, but it'll be all how they can continue to victimize them continue to victimize them. And I said, Okay, I'll think about it. And so then I said, I'll call you. And so then, of course, my mom was all over it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so the first time again, he did not know I was anywhere near there. And so my mom and I went down and met with them. And the counselor had commented, and it's still my mom never knew about the abuse. I never told I did tell the counselor, because I wanted her to have an understanding why, as far as I was concerned, he could suck it up like the rest. Right, right, right now. But and so she made the comment to my mom about she inferred my mom was controlling because of how involved she had stayed in his life. My goodness, that made her so mad. She said, that's I'm not like that. And I said, Well, you have to look at it from how you are with him. Yeah, you are. Yeah. And anyway, so I will say not from an egotistical standpoint, but those counselors love me. Yeah, because I didn't pull punches with anybody. Yeah, you brought the reality into the situation. And I

I will say not from an egotistical standpoint, but those counselors love me. Yeah, because I didn't pull punches with anybody. Yeah, you brought the reality into the situation. And I was not feeling sorry for them. They made their they made their choices. And so we went every Saturday, I think it was we drove down there. And we would just we would get to visit with the prisoner, we could bring him some little treats, whatever. And then they would go back to where they were being housed. And so then they had a weekend, a family weekend. And the setup was the family, they knew we were coming. So it was all great. And they were not, they weren't using drugs, they were in prison, which we all know there probably could have been. But at that time, we I believe they weren't because they were at this place. And, and so the structure of the weekend was day one, we were really literally in class, which everybody else is losing patience, because they just want to see their person, right? I'm soaking this stuff. Yeah, you're like therapy, therapy. And it was a whole class on criminal thinking behavior, and all of this stuff, and how they manipulate you and all of this stuff, which I found fascinating. And so I was like asking questions. And, you know, the annoying kid in school who won't shut up, that was me. Lady knock it off. Yeah, that was me. And they're all just like, well, when do we get to see him? And I'm like, but wait a minute, what about this? It was fascinating. Yeah. And then the second day, we would, in amongst just us family members, talk about how our family members addiction had affected us. You know, what was the impact of their addiction on us? Yeah. And some of them were so needy, beneficially. Well, I don't

talk about how our family members addiction had affected us. You know, what was the impact of their addiction on us? Yeah. And some of them were so needy, beneficially. Well, I don't know. You know, it's kind of hard to get money. Sometimes it's kind of hard to feed the kids sometimes, all this kind of stuff. Yeah. And the counselor said to me, are you willing to say your story? And I said, my mom will lose it. I can't say it with her in the room. My mom does not know. Yeah. To this day does not know. And she will lose her mind. Yeah. She's not a calm reactor. She will lose her mind. And they said, would you be willing to do it if we make sure we have somebody sitting with her so that when you share your story, there's someone there for her. Yeah. And I said, okay, but I can't be facing her. Right. And so I told my story. And as I'm talking, I hear my mom because we're just in a living room. It was a house that they had. And it was in the living room when we were in a circle. And so I'm talking and I hear my mom screaming as I tell you my story. And I hear her screaming and the counselor was with her. And I just kept going. I thought, just keep talking. Just say what you have to say. And I did. And when I finally looked at her, you would have thought somebody, I mean, she was devastated. She was devastated. She was how could I not have known? Yeah. And then different pieces started coming. And she goes, Wait a minute. That time I was in the hospital. And I go, Yeah. Oh, that makes sense. And then she she was just, it was awful. Yeah. And then we went to dinner that night at the where we all ate to dinner together with the family members. And my brother come up. So what happened to mom? I said, Oh, it's just a long, rough day. Yeah. Then the

dinner that night at the where we all ate to dinner together with the family members. And my brother come up. So what happened to mom? I said, Oh, it's just a long, rough day. Yeah. Then the third day, the prisoners were brought in and everybody sat with their family member. And then they put, you know, the two chairs facing each other. And you could then tell your person directly how their addiction affected you. And I just didn't hold back. I just told him and I said, you know, I said, you know what it's like always on holidays to wonder whether you're dead under a bridge or something. And we never know. Or whether you've been thrown in prison again. And I said, you know how many years I've listened to poor john this and poor john that because you didn't have your dad. And and I said, But guess what? This is what having your dad did to me. And holy cow, he just hung his head and start crying. And he's like, I had no idea. Nobody did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody did. Yeah. And I said, but I had to make a choice. Do I survive this and go the route of drugs and alcohol to which so many women? Yes, that is, you have to numb the pain somehow. Absolutely. And, and so he just it, it beat him up me saying this, and you could have heard a pin drop in his room. And I am talking tatted up, scary as heck prisoners. Yeah, sitting there. Yeah. And because it was in a safe environment, in fact, one of them who this guy was mean, he his person was there, even though he beat her up repeatedly, hospitalized her more than once. And she's still here, what can I do for you? And so I, I had said to him later, when we had a break, I said, because there was armed guards, I knew I was safe. Yeah. And I said, why do you think

And she's still here, what can I do for you? And so I, I had said to him later, when we had a break, I said, because there was armed guards, I knew I was safe. Yeah. And I said, why do you think it's okay to beat somebody up? I said, I can't for the life may figure out why you think it's okay to physically abuse somebody. Well, these guys are also tough. They're not used to anybody talking to them that way. Yeah, I wouldn't have been bright. I would have gone the other way if I saw him on the street. But you also were on a roll. I was on her eyes, right? Take all these people down. I had here is a pent up of all this nonsense. Yeah. And so they so the counselors appreciated that I didn't pull any punches with anybody. But it was a lot of stuff coming out. Yeah, I finally had an avenue to let the anger out that I had. And I didn't care if you were hardened criminal, you were getting it, right? You were you were just in the way getting it. And but you could have heard a pin drop. And you I when I glance up at some of them, they were you could see the look on their face of utter shock that somebody was being that open. And because they weren't on drugs at the time, they could hear things. Yeah, that they couldn't normally otherwise. Yeah. You know, what a moment though, for you. And what a interesting way for you to find your voice in that room surrounded by criminals and drug addicts. It was crazy. But in some ways, it's like, of course, this is how it's going to go down and your mom's learning it around that time and everything. Did this coincide to when you started to think about divorcing your husband? It did. And and it did because it was such a long time of making that choice, because I was, again, worried about the

coincide to when you started to think about divorcing your husband? It did. And and it did because it was such a long time of making that choice, because I was, again, worried about the implication for everybody else. Right. And I thought, I'm fine. I've dealt with worse. And I just was always focused on what the impact of that decision would be for everybody else. And and so I started thinking about it. And then two years before I actually made that final decision, I met with an attorney, one of the teachers at the school I worked, I had been friends with and I asked him if he knew of an attorney and I had kept all this to myself. Nobody knew I was doing this. And the attorney had free consultation for the first one. And so I met with him and I said and I kind of just laid it out what I was thinking of doing. And I said, I know that once I step out the door that I won't have any longer any rights to the house or any of my possessions in it. I already know that I just want to know what what would I need to do? What does that look like? And he said, well, let's back up for a minute. Who told you that you wouldn't have access to the house? Well, my husband told me, you know, yeah. Well, who told you that you wouldn't? And I said, well, my husband told me. Yeah. And he said, I he was very he probably was like shaking his head, but he was wonderful. And he says, well, let me just explain to you Oregon State law. And this is what and he said you're married for 25 years. And and at the time that it was 23 at the time when I first met with him. And he said, you're married far long enough and you've raised the family. And in the laws eyes, you have given up a career to stay, you know, raise your family. And I said, but

met with him. And he said, you're married far long enough and you've raised the family. And in the laws eyes, you have given up a career to stay, you know, raise your family. And I said, but that's what I wanted. He says, I'm telling you what the law says. Right. The law says you gave up a career and you are entitled to be the one to stay at the house because you still have a child there. You know, you at that time, both kids, he says, you still have children in the home. So you're entitled to that. So he just kind of laid out what was legal and not legal. Right. What year was that? Not a late 80s. Okay. Yeah. So it wasn't that it wasn't common knowledge. It was me being not common knowledge. Right. And and so I sat on it for another couple of years and another couple of years trying to still do the right thing, still trying to make things better. And but through that time of going down to that prison program, I learned a lot from them. And also at the time I started volunteering, not because of anything for me, I've always volunteered at place. I mean, I've done a lot of volunteering because I believe in it. I believe it's the right thing to do. And so I was going to volunteer at Portland Women's Crisis Line, domestic violence shelter. And so you had to go through training. And as I'm going through training, I'm blown away again, being more educated, because even though there was never physical abuse, they started talking in one class about the thousand and one rule. And they're talking about it. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And it's like, you can be told there's a thousand rules to follow. And if you follow all of them, then you'll either get this or things will be better. And so you do you follow all thousand

And it's like, you can be told there's a thousand rules to follow. And if you follow all of them, then you'll either get this or things will be better. And so you do you follow all thousand rules. And you get to that point. And there's like, but there's one more you missed. And that's always what the hook is. Right. And and so and everything else, they talked about that. And then I started connecting the dots. And so there was like all this process of gathering information and being educated myself and then realizing, oh, I'm making a terrible mistake for my children and feeling horrible about that, because what I thought was doing the right thing for them was doing the worst thing and just not realizing it. And so then I finally so when I made the decision and I was doing a lot of reading both for some of the classes I was taking, but I was doing a lot of reading on codependency and what that looks like and the things that happened that carried to understand more why I was doing things I was doing. And I can remember one November, I moved out December 26th of 89. And I can remember one day in November, I was I always I read this book by Melody Beatty. It was called The Language of Letting Go. And it was daily, not devotions, but daily readings. And then below she'd have like a verse. And sometimes it was biblical. Sometimes it was some other spiritual leader, something inspirational message. And it was November 12. And it was about to thine own self be true. And the whole focus was on, you're not helping anybody if you're not taking care of yourself. And I just sat with me and I thought what? And, and then the verse expanded on is that from Shakespeare? To my own self be true. I think it's something like anyway, whatever it

care of yourself. And I just sat with me and I thought what? And, and then the verse expanded on is that from Shakespeare? To my own self be true. I think it's something like anyway, whatever it was the verse down there is basically that to thine own self be true. And pretty much paraphrasing, you're really no good to anybody else. Yeah, you're not providing a healthy environment for anybody else. If you aren't taking care of yourself, which always to me had been the opposite thought, right? And it was it was this very calm, quiet realization. And I just it was like a peace settled over me that it's okay. It's okay to take care of myself. My daughter had moved out and got married. My son was mid senior year in high school. And oh goodness, I did so it was no blazing argument that I'm leaving blah, blah, blah. So I told my husband, I formerly thought I went met with my attorney again, asked him what the steps were asking him how much it would cost me because I says I, I don't expect him to pay for anything. I'll pay for it. Wasn't quite sure how right. But he let me do it on payments. And I did, I paid for it. And, and what I asked him what I needed to do what the first steps were things like that. And so by now then it's kind of mid November. And I told him, I was moving out, I said I can't and I and I said, but I don't want to ruin Christmas for anybody. So I'm going to move out December 26. So even then you're still trying to trying to keep it together. What kind of nutcase does that? And of course, I expect him to react calmly about it. Right, right, right. And so if you tell a controlling person that you're taking control, it doesn't go over very well. It's actually dangerous. Yeah, which I learned later. Yeah. And through

Right, right, right. And so if you tell a controlling person that you're taking control, it doesn't go over very well. It's actually dangerous. Yeah, which I learned later. Yeah. And through the domestic violence, your decision to leave in the physical abuse in particular, races your chance of dying 1000%. Yeah, when you make that decision. That's why women keep going back. Yeah. Well, partly because they're isolated. They don't have fun. Right, right. All the other reasons. Yeah. But I said, and he was like, No, you're not. And, and so it started with all that. No, you're not. And then it started with the bargaining. We'll all go to counseling. We'll go to counseling. I said, we're past that point. Yeah. And we'll all go to because he would, you use the term at one point of gaslighting. That's kind of what it was, but he didn't know what it was. Right. Earlier, I would say, I can't have a conversation with you when you've been drinking, because I could smell it. It was at this point in the pores. And he would say, Why do you always say that I haven't had anything to drink. And I began to wonder if it was just me assuming that right. Even though I know clearly, right? I can smell it. I can see it in his eyes, like everything, you know. And, and so I said, No, it's too late for counseling. I tried that years ago. And you said it was fine for me, but you you didn't need counseling. And so then it was like, I'll go to treatment. And I said, Here's the thing about treatment. If you do it for me, you'll fail. Right. You can only do it for yourself. Because, again, I had been gaining information. Right. I had more to talk. He told you to go to therapy. And you did. I listen, man, careful what you wish.

Right. You can only do it for yourself. Because, again, I had been gaining information. Right. I had more to talk. He told you to go to therapy. And you did. I listen, man, careful what you wish. No kidding. No kidding. And, and so I said, No, I don't, I don't care what if you do it. I'm happy for you. If you do it for yourself. Right. You know, that would be wonderful. But don't do it for me, because that's not going to change my mind. And, and I was, I was going to church at the time. And he says, Well, I'll start going to church. I said, Again, you can only do that for yourself. It's not going to impact. I've made my decision. And I was dead calm on all of this. I was just dead calm. gritting my teeth through it, because it was really because now I got another whole month living there. Right. Because you committed to Christmas. Because I committed to December 26. So nobody got upset. And, and, and I had once I made the decision, I had slowly, I mean, this is kind of devious, but it was my survival mode, then I had started moving out without him knowing it, because he worked graveyard. And so I would take some boxes, fill up my personal stuff. I never took anything that was his stuff that was meaningful to me, kids stuff. And I'd load up trunk of my car. And I had rented a storage unit. And so in the morning, he'd be home and I'd leave for school to work at the school. And I would stop my storage unit drop off the boxes two or three at a time. You're, you're discussing it, you're describing a woman who's escaping abusive relationship. Yeah. And so I would do that little by little. And then I would rearrange closet. So it never looked like anything was missing. So it was, I mean, I was kind of proud of myself that

relationship. Yeah. And so I would do that little by little. And then I would rearrange closet. So it never looked like anything was missing. So it was, I mean, I was kind of proud of myself that I moved out and he didn't know it, you know, it's kind of, I mean, in hindsight, many years later, I can laugh about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And nobody, the job I worked at knew I was getting into work. Nobody knew. And because I don't want to impact anybody. And so we ended up doing it. It was a horrible, horrible last month, because he stuck to me like glue, because he worked nice, he was round during the daytime. And it was awful. And, and I said, but I'm going to make sure that the, that the house is clean when I leave, I'm going to thoroughly clean it. So everything's not cleaned out when I leave. And by this time, he had finally gotten an attorney. And his attorney told me, me as well say goodbye to the house, because your wife has every right to it because, you know, yeah, this time, Brian still in high school, and been married long enough, she has every right to it. Yeah. And, and I, I told my attorney, I said, I just went out. I don't want I would like half the proceeds of the house or half what the house is worth. And he says, well, how much is it worth? And I said, well, my husband told me how much it was worth. And he said, but you have it appraised or anything. I said, no, my husband told me how much is worth, which was probably half of what it was worth. Right. But again, I just wanted out. Yeah, I said, I said, I'm going to go back to school. I'm going to take a year sabbatical from my job. They will let me do that. And I'm going back to school to finish my degree, because I'd already by that time, talked to the

school. I'm going to take a year sabbatical from my job. They will let me do that. And I'm going back to school to finish my degree, because I'd already by that time, talked to the college. And I said, I need to take 23 credits a term to finish my degree a year and a half in one year. And they said, well, you can't do that without board approval. I said, look, I'm not a kid. I'm not partying. I'm not my whole focus is what I'm doing. Right. And so they, so each term I had to get board approval, but I did it. And because it was so many credits, yeah, it was 23. It was it was too big of a low. Yeah. Yeah. I think the most we ever took was 18. Yeah. It's too big. They can't. Yeah, they can't do it. And I got four point and and I was taking like seven classes at a time and stuff. And did you have your own apartment when you moved? No, I spent a year living with Andy Judy. Okay. And so I, I took a year off and I literally was Birkenstocks and baggy clothes for a year. I was taking seven credits and the some of the college kids would say they couldn't believe I was getting A's and they said, how are you doing that? Because they all start talking about how much I was in all their classes. You know, I was in I was showing up everywhere. And of course, the obnoxious front row person. I like learning. And, and I said, here's the thing. I said, I'm not dating and I don't party. Yeah. I'm here to get a year and a half worth of course load in one year. And, and they were they were very intrigued by that very intrigued by that. And they said, So how do you do that? And I said, I go home every single day. And I start plowing through my books. And I spent all week on because this is a year I have to do this. Yeah. And I said,

go home every single day. And I start plowing through my books. And I spent all week on because this is a year I have to do this. Yeah. And I said, I plow through my books. And that is all I do is I study and I go to school. They were just amazed by that. Yeah, but that was probably like the happiest you'd been in years. It was fun. It was really fun. There were some there were some frustrating things because the divorce took almost the full next year to I thought it was a simple process. We agree. We I thought it was simple. I was very naive about that. And like I would leave school and put my books in. I'd open up the trunk of my car to put my books in. And there'd be something he had put in there because he had keys to it. And so there was a lot of stalking going on that would show up in random ways. And and and some of it I wasn't aware of until it happened. And then I was. And so you're so lucky nothing happened. Yeah, very lucky. It was actually his sister that told me how much he was stalking me because I was just you know, again, I was not thinking about that. I thought I've made the break. You know, he made a lot of accusations about what I was doing with my life personally start questioning if I was dating. And I said, look, I'm just trying to get through school. He somehow knew things I was doing like I had taken a job and moved out of state after a while. He knew all that. I don't know how. But and then when he couldn't control it. And I I literally physically left December 26. He was beside himself with not being able to control it. But it kept moving on. And so by then, that's the middle of my son's senior year. And so my son was going to stay with him till he finished school. I had by then finished

But it kept moving on. And so by then, that's the middle of my son's senior year. And so my son was going to stay with him till he finished school. I had by then finished school and moved it moved into my own place. And he came up to school, told my son they were going to I don't look at cars or look at something, go do something. And he drives up to my school and drops him off. And he says, now you can go live with your mom, just out of the blue. And so that kind of was the next level of challenge. He just dumped with you. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't I mean, I was happy. I mean, I love having him around. It was never it was none of it was ever a burden. Yeah. But it was him. It's more emotional abuse on his son. Yeah. Yeah. And he changed the locks on the house and the whole thing. And he allowed him to come and get his things. And then I, at one point, had to go by to pick up something. I don't remember the circumstance, but we had had a cabin in the mountains from the time my son was five years old. And it was his peaceful place. He loved it. He's an outdoor guy. He loved it. And I had come by the house for him to run in and get something. And I had taken my wedding ring off. And he said, where's your wedding ring? I said, going through a divorce. I'm not wearing a wedding ring. And he had a fit. And the very next day, he sold this cabin that because I loved. And that was why. Yeah, because very early on, after I left, I stayed with my mom for a month, just to get my bearings. And I, I lived with him. So yeah, young. And he had come to her apartment when I was at work. And he told her, because I know how to get to her. I know I can manipulate her through the kids because he was trying to put pressure on my mom. And at this point,

when I was at work. And he told her, because I know how to get to her. I know I can manipulate her through the kids because he was trying to put pressure on my mom. And at this point, he was just playing, getting scary. And and so, yeah, so it was it was a lot of rough time. How did things go with like, so he he did that with your son. How was he with your daughter? So my daughter had got married. And when my daughter was in school around her toward the end of her sophomore year, things started getting kind of weird. She was becoming she had started dating a guy who seemingly was this wonderful guy. But she had started being more distant for me. And it was I didn't know how to handle that because we had we had never had any arguments or we just had fun together. We just had fun together. And we never had any difficulties. But she started distancing herself for me. And she's very, very intelligent. And her boyfriend is like that. They're very bright. And they kind of started getting this intellectual arrogance. I don't know how else to say it. And started judging people and all this kind of stuff. And she started dropping out of things in the high school that she had worked really hard to get into, like an elite choir playing piano for the choir, things that she had always wanted to do. Yeah. And she started distancing herself more and more. And so when she got married at 18, for me, that was not a happy occasion, because I worked in the summer to get enough money to pay for her wedding. But I wasn't allowed to be part of it. She didn't allow me to like, you know, you go, yeah, dress shop, whatever. Yeah. She had somebody she knew make her dress, but I never saw it till her wedding day. I just I gave over the money

me to like, you know, you go, yeah, dress shop, whatever. Yeah. She had somebody she knew make her dress, but I never saw it till her wedding day. I just I gave over the money for that gave over the money for the flowers, gave over whatever money was necessary based on working. But I was never a part of it. And even when they sent out their invitations, it wasn't how you would say the parents of request, whatever, how you say it. Yeah. They just put Blaine and crystal request your presence. I think I remember that. Yeah, they didn't mention. Yeah. And so it was a starting of a and so when I had moved out after I'd gone through school night, got my own apartment, and she came over and she said, you know, you always taught us that we are to stick with things and that we couldn't just quit. And now you're quitting. And I said, Well, not exactly the same thing. And she says, well, when I wanted to quit cheerleading, you made me stick it out. And I said, your sophomore year of high school, you always wanted to do that. You made a commitment. And I said, you can stick it out this semester. And then you can do if you choose not to do it, totally up to you. Ending my marriage with your dad is nowhere near in the same ballpark. And I said, I am not going to. It's personal between us. I said, if I tell you all the reasons, I will be sitting here bad mouthing your dad and I am not going to do that. You know, it's been hard. You yourself had said many times over the years, why do you stay? Right? Why do you stay? Why do you let him talk to you like that? And I said, you yourself had had said that. And I said, you witnessed a lot of it. And I said, but beyond that, I am not going to sit here and do that. I said, you're just going to

like that? And I said, you yourself had had said that. And I said, you witnessed a lot of it. And I said, but beyond that, I am not going to sit here and do that. I said, you're just going to have to trust that I am doing this in the best interest of everyone. And that was it. That was it. And so in the meantime, he's bending her air because, of course, now she's getting this relationship in her mind with the dad she never had a relationship with. And he's playing on that. Right. He's playing those cards in that direction. Right. And and so and I was so mentally exhausted because I was then back to work. I was still dealing with his constant thing because I had asked for a minimal amount of money to get me through that first year of school. And of course, because that he had to know where I was all the time in order to and then he'd say, oh, well, it's not going to be there on on time. This he had more than enough money. But it was when he was in the game with the money to control me. Yeah. Because I was barely making it. So it was a hardship to me if he didn't give that little amount. And I wanted my health insurance for the year until I could get back to work and get back on my own health insurance. So I wasn't asking. And the half of the house he told me was worth was really just enough to I mean, I was really starting over again at 48 as if I was 18. But this time it was on your terms and you chose yourself and it was this time you chose yourself. Yeah. And, you know, looking back, you know, it's funny, when I go to restaurants, I look at people my age group and I see them sitting together as a married couple looking about as unhappy as you could be. They've got nothing to talk about. They don't. They've just done the time. And I've had the most

group and I see them sitting together as a married couple looking about as unhappy as you could be. They've got nothing to talk about. They don't. They've just done the time. And I've had the most amazing experiences of travel and the job I did and the people I've got to meet and and being close with my son. He he had to recover from his own stuff from him. Right. And has done such an amazing job of not becoming the man his father was as hurtful as all of his stuff has been. Yeah. And becoming a kind person and somebody I'm proud to have as my son and my friend, you know. And I just I'm so grateful now for the experiences. I don't like how I got here, but I'm just so lucky because I that would not have been the case if I would have stayed. You would not have traveled. You would not have no volunteered with tip. No. Right. I've twenty eight years. Twenty eight years you volunteered with tip and all the things you've done. You would have still been in that house being controlled by him. Every move you made. So you you chose yourself. But in the in the process, it coincided with your daughter basically going no contact. Right. Right. And so that was there was one time my son had gone over there to get something and my husband was talking suicide and it got my son understandably. And that one time he lashed out at me and that was the only time that ever happened. And it was and I I I know how manipulated he was, you know. Yeah. But my daughter cut off all contact and it's been well, she hasn't talked to me since 1991. What was the last time you guys spoke? 1991. But what what was it? The last thing she ever came. Do you remember the picnic we had the Ferns family picnic in Loulay? Yeah. They were there.

What was the last time you guys spoke? 1991. But what what was it? The last thing she ever came. Do you remember the picnic we had the Ferns family picnic in Loulay? Yeah. They were there. But if you think about it, they were there sitting on a blanket over here. Reading. I don't. Yes. Reading. Yes. Not engaging with. Now I remember that. And she came and then she went on. And so in hindsight, she was kind of saying goodbye to Nana. But Wendy even tried talking to her. Annie Judy tried nothing, nothing. And and so the last time I spoke, we went to right after that picnic, her childhood best friend was getting married. And it was so weird because we were at the wedding and I went in and sat down and she came later and I said, over here, here's the seat. Yeah. And she said, I'm going to sit over here with them. And she went and sat with the family whose daughter she could not stand. She could not stand her. And everybody there was people we knew from church. And they're all looking back. Yeah. Because we were always very close. Right. And they're looking back and forth. And they're and they're looking at us like, what the heck is going on? Why isn't she sitting with her mom? Yeah. And when we left, we went there and I said, hey, can we get together for coffee? Well, I'm pretty busy. And she was aloof. And she never she never no matter I tried writing letters, I tried calling her, she would hang up on me. Then then I would try calling again, she wouldn't answer. I tried pretending like it wasn't that way. And I'd send letters. Here's what's going on in the family. You know, nothing. I tried reaching out to his parents, like a parent to parent. Right. Nothing. Wendy tried talking to her auntie Judy, I thought everybody tried and

going on in the family. You know, nothing. I tried reaching out to his parents, like a parent to parent. Right. Nothing. Wendy tried talking to her auntie Judy, I thought everybody tried and nothing. And so in the process, down, you know, going to counseling over the time, and when I would talk to my counselor about it, and I said, she said things that are not what is reality. And she says, well, what people can create their own reality to the point at which they believe it. If they tell that story enough, they believe it. Right. And I'd even asked my son, I don't care if you tell me something that I did horrible, I'd rather know than have this horrible not knowing. So tell me if you can think of a reason for this. And he said, he has more choice words than I'm sharing. But he said, it's not you, it's her. Yeah. And then she had done, I kind of came across later, she had done podcasts, when it was just totally audio, audio, thank you, thank you. And she had done a bunch of stuff. And some of them are like a bunch of intellect, intellectual stuff that like, who cares, you know, but she had one titled, parenting without a paradigm. And I thought, well, that's odd, because that literally means parenting without an example of how to do it. And I listened to this, it was about 20 minutes of her spouting about was really hard to raise her own children, because she didn't have an example of how to parent from her mother was always her mother never mentioned of her father, from her mother, and her mother was abusive. And I'm sitting there listening to this with my mouth hanging open. And she said she was abusive. And she said, I'd be left home alone on the weekends, while they all went did something else. And even teachers at school felt sorry for me.

mouth hanging open. And she said she was abusive. And she said, I'd be left home alone on the weekends, while they all went did something else. And even teachers at school felt sorry for me. Those are the same teachers that were friends of mine. And they felt sorry for me, because they knew how bad you know, on and on and on. And kept using the word that her mother was abusive. And I was I was in shock, unbelievable. And up to this time, I was devastated by all this, I was so leveled. And that I was just plain angry, right? I thought, and and so I copied that link, and I sent it to my sister. And I said, I'm not going to tell you anything about this. But could you listen to it? And give me a reality check? Have I just been kidding myself all these all this time? And I was a decent parent? I said, Could you just listen to this? Tell me what you think. The thing was about 20 minutes, about 25 minutes later, she calls me. And it was longshore woman Langley ripping from there. What in the head? What is where did this come from? And I said, that's Chris. That's her perception. Right. And she says, it's really kind of funny, because Kathy and I'm other sister, she says, we used to talk about you behind your back and say, we couldn't believe how much you doted on her. Yeah. And she said this is, and of course, she went off the she says, you need to get an attorney. This is slander. And this is on the internet. And she was just going off on it. Yeah. And, you know, but it's it's truly one of those things where she has created her own reality. And that's exactly Yeah, it's 100% her own reality. And, and also, you said that her dad's mother's side of the family has that history of cutting people off. So genetically,

And that's exactly Yeah, it's 100% her own reality. And, and also, you said that her dad's mother's side of the family has that history of cutting people off. So genetically, that's what my brother in law said. Yeah, my brother in law said is, I think it's genetic. And we're like, well, that's crazy. Years later. Yeah. It's kind of true. It's like a combination of that. And then whatever manipulation her father was pulling. Well, because now she had her father that she wanted all these years, right, never was really a dad, right. And really, when you back yourself into that corner. So now she has a one time I called and her husband answered the phone, and she was in the background, she says, I'm not talking to her. And I could hear him, he covered the phone, he says, I'm not going to be the one hurting your mom. And, and then he came back, and he says, she won't come to the phone. And that was it. So you think he would be supportive? I don't think so. Now I think it's too far down the Yeah, I think it's too far down the road. Yeah. But now you have these three daughters. And, you know, like, if they wondered why her mother was never around, they knew their grandpa. And again, I thought, man, I did all. Yeah, I did all work. Yeah, how old are the girls? They're all grown. And I actually have two great granddaughters. No way. Yeah, I have three granddaughters and two great granddaughters. I, I, through social media, I've kind of like rabbit trails, seen them. And, you know, it's remarkable. You're not alone. My cousin did this to my aunt. Really? Yeah. And we, you know, it's sort of that what happens behind closed doors. So we don't know the full story. But from the outside looking in my cousin moved. And my aunt was always very, they were

And we, you know, it's sort of that what happens behind closed doors. So we don't know the full story. But from the outside looking in my cousin moved. And my aunt was always very, they were close, very similar to what you're describing. And there's a streak in my family where they'll cut people off and don't look back. Yeah, I can do it. I genetically have the ability to cut people off and not look back. But my cousin did it to my aunt. Wow. So it's very interesting. I'm sitting here thinking, why? But what's you can't you can't explain it. What I finally learned in counseling is I have been I was trying very hard to come to a reasonable explanation for an unreasonable situation. As no matter how hard you try, you're trying to be logical and figure out the reason, but it's not logical. And, you know, you have to keep that story running because now you have kids and how come they wouldn't know how come they only know their grandpa, but they don't know their grandma. Well, you have to keep that story going. The lie has gotten too deep. It's too deep. And, you know, far gone. I think you're right. And people said early on, they said, she'll come around. It's just blah, blah, blah. But I know what her dad's the one side of the family. I know that there's that that's how they you don't agree with me because they his mom had done that to us two different times during our marriage. And I'd have to be the one to go patch things up and so everybody was talking again. And that was very foreign to me because that's not how anybody in our family handled things. You may not agree with them. You may not. You may be really you don't cut them off. You don't cut them off their family. And speaking to someone from this

our family handled things. You may not agree with them. You may not. You may be really you don't cut them off. You don't cut them off their family. And speaking to someone from this family, I can vouch that Annie Sharon did dote on her daughter and in the most loving way. And you were there for her from my perspective, 24 seven, anything she needed. So to to hear what you said, she said on the podcast, it blows my mind that it blows. I can't tell you growing up knowing in my perspective of you two was you guys were like this. So tight. She was so tight in her first year of high school. She was on a high school board that the Oregonian newspaper had representatives from different high schools and they would talk about different things as a group. I think there were six or seven different high schools represented. And one time they were talking about Christmas and she was saying, my mom is my best friend and she's the one that makes the magic happen in our house. And I'm not saying that like, oh, I'm so great. Parents make mistakes. And you always look back and say, wow, I wish I would have done this differently. But the point is that's how she felt. Right. I wasn't in the room. She didn't have to say it for me. She said it in a room with strangers. And but it's gotten to that point. And there would be random things she'd say in different podcasts. And I said, well, that's not really what happened, but right. But that one to refer to me as abusey was probably the most insulting, erroneous thing. And so it didn't hurt me as much as it made me so mad. I could just I was just furious. Yeah. And it changed how I felt about it. Of course, it still makes me broken hearted. But at the same time, it made me mad.

as much as it made me so mad. I could just I was just furious. Yeah. And it changed how I felt about it. Of course, it still makes me broken hearted. But at the same time, it made me mad. You know, it just made me mad. Like I, I love to be an apparent and I just I put my heart and soul into being apparent. I just loved it. Yeah. You know, and abusive, I was not. Did it help you kind of pivot from you accepting the blame to accepting that it really wasn't me. And this does solidify that. It did. I started the last counselor I had who she died. She was a young woman and she died. But she was wonderful. And she was probably the best one I ever had because she helped put perspective on it like that. And she started talking about realities and when you assume a reality. But hearing that in her from her mouth, saying that I thought and my son had been telling me all along. He had been saying all along. But you know, when you're when you're thinking you're to blame, it's hard to convince you you're not. And so I couldn't imagine why she would do this unless I did something to provoke it. But her saying that and what she was saying specifically, I thought, oh, no, it is definitely not me. No, this is my this is my aunt to a T. Yeah, but it's it's it also. And I think I've mentioned this to you before. It also feels cultish. Like she was kind of got involved with the people she was involved with. It was one of the teachers and this teacher. He kind of drew this crowd of these intellectual kids. And like as if he is mentoring them. Yeah. But my my sister had met him at a graduation or something and she had a bad bite. She said, I don't know what it is about that guy, but I have a bad feeling about him. And at the time I said, well, he's one of their

graduation or something and she had a bad bite. She said, I don't know what it is about that guy, but I have a bad feeling about him. And at the time I said, well, he's one of their favorite teachers. I was oblivious to it. And I said he's he's one of their favorite teachers. He has an after school group for the kids and so on and so forth. And I was not thinking anything about it. But she to this day will say I always had a bad feeling about him. Like he was like a kind of a cult leader in the way. If you take that take that right. And then her getting so involved with her husband and his family, like even to the point where you weren't involved with the wedding. So there's something weird going on here. Then the genetic aspect of how her father's mother's side of the family can cut people off. And then her father's manipulation. It was a perfect storm for this to happen. Exactly. And it almost wouldn't matter what you said. You weren't. It's a wall that you can't get past. But it took me all the years to realize I couldn't because I always felt I always felt if I could figure out why I could do something about it. But it was it was a exercise in pointless because there was never a way that it could be made right. Never away. It feels like to just to go back. Not it's not identical to my cousin, but I think the lies become this new manifested reality that you can't go back on. Well, that's the truth. Yeah. Yeah. That's the truth because, you know, how how does she say to her children? It has to be a good story. You can't back up. Yeah. No, there's no proof of any of it. And it's funny to me because her one daughter is her middle daughter. I've seen on Instagram is very, very involved in the swing dancing up in Washington. She lives up

And it's funny to me because her one daughter is her middle daughter. I've seen on Instagram is very, very involved in the swing dancing up in Washington. She lives up by Everett and very involved in that. That was me. I mean, I I was very involved in dancing and was this during your marriage? No, no. Started from when I was a kid. I don't know if you saw my post about my best Christmas present that my son got me an American Bandstand sign starting from the original Philly kids on American Bandstand. I always love dancing. And when I was divorced and moved to Arizona, I went to Fred Astaire, not because I didn't know. Well, in my generation, you also went to ballroom dancing lessons when you were in middle school, you know, and you learned manners, you know, and the boys had to wear white gloves and, you know, you learn manner. And so I knew how to do all that. And so when I moved to Arizona and I was single and I thought, well, I'm going to go to like a Fred Astaire because there will always be a dance partner. I never was like a bar person. And I and I never really got over the not having confidence of that I was OK enough. And so I thought, well, if I if I go to Fred Astaire, I can do the classes and I'll always have a good dance partner. That was my rationale. And I did. Yeah. But I was really good. That's great. In particular, in swing. And so they kept wanting me to do more. They wanted me to enter competition. Wow. I was really good. This is post divorce. Yes. When I lived in Arizona. Oh, OK. You were kicking ass post divorce. This is awesome. I love they wanted me to enter competition. Well, by this time I had I mean, there are twenty five dollars to get in is is a lost leader for a fact. It gets to be very,

I love they wanted me to enter competition. Well, by this time I had I mean, there are twenty five dollars to get in is is a lost leader for a fact. It gets to be very, very expensive. The more you got the more. And so I was doing lessons and then they and so you could come and then you'd have nights where you could go out as a class and your main instructor was your dance partner for the night. So we could go to like a Western club and swing all night long. It was awesome. Wow. How long did you do that? I did it for not quite a year because I it was priced me out. And so then they wanted me to do competition. But then you have to get like costume and you have to do the whole thing. I could have done something with it. However, it just got, you know, and of course, they say, well, you could use a credit card to do this and blow up. So on and so forth. And I just I I can't do that. I don't have to look up what swing dancing is. I'm not. Oh, it's cool. It's so cool. But I love what a way to kick off your post divorce life. Yeah. That's awesome. And so when I saw her, saw her daughter's page and she is totally into the whole swing dancing movement up there, I thought, sweetheart, you got that from somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, even my daughter has a very successful folk embroidery business. She's very successful with it and extraordinarily talented. And she will allude to she's been doing this since she was four years old or she's always do that. Yeah. I'm the one that taught her all this stuff. I remember now she's far surpassed my skill set a million times over. She's very talented. However, when she alludes to she's been doing this all the, you know, like really who taught you? That was the abusive mom. Yeah, that was the

skill set a million times over. She's very talented. However, when she alludes to she's been doing this all the, you know, like really who taught you? That was the abusive mom. Yeah, that was the abusive mom that didn't pay attention. You know, you're in, you're there with her in her children. I'll be curious if someday one of them finds you. My son maintains that one of them will show up at my door one day. I don't think it'll be her oldest. I possibly her middle, her third child looks identical to her frequently. So and so I don't know. I mean, they may or may not. They're not going to find the abusive person they think. No, but he says that too. He says one of these days, karma's going to happen and it's going to come back on her. I don't know. But I will say that through through all the things, I mean, I always feel like you go through hard times. There's a purpose. You don't do anything where there's not a purpose for it, no matter how bad it is. And kind of to my point of talking about kind of knowing what it feels like to be hungry, knowing what it's like to be an abuse survivor gave me the insight to help to be able to see it in other people when nobody knew and be able to help. It also gave me compassion. I think that's why I've spent most of my life volunteering at different things is because I mean, if I was blessed enough to survive all these things and have the strength to make the change when I had no idea where that strength was going to come from. But I feel that's the reason I've been able to, you know, try and give back to other people because I'm lucky, you know, yeah, I got through those things. And it made me more insightful to them. It made me ask tougher questions of people. Yeah. I was able to help a

to other people because I'm lucky, you know, yeah, I got through those things. And it made me more insightful to them. It made me ask tougher questions of people. Yeah. I was able to help a girl that I worked with in a direct selling business I did. She used to confide in me and everything she was saying was my ex-husband. And she had two young boys. And she would just she she'd reach out to me on Facebook and just how are you doing? And it was just general chit chat. And I would just kind of sit there because I knew pretty soon she'd start talking about her husband. And she was describing my life. And she had these two boys. And so this went on for several months. And I told her I says I did not advocate divorce for divorce sake. But I said, I wanted to share with you that you're describing my life. And this is what happens. You're trying and she was saying the same things. It I don't want to impact my voice. And so I said, I'm just going to share my story with you of what that was like, and what holding on and not doing anything. It does impact your children. They're so much smarter than you give them credit for. You think you're making a peaceful household, they see it and feel it. It's not. And about a year and a half later, she did get a divorce. And I told her all along. I said, if you guys can go to counseling, if you can work it out, but she'd say things. And it was exact same thing. And I said, Is he willing to be part of working it out? She says, Well, he doesn't think he has a problem. And I go, Yeah, yeah. And so I think that the experiences and all the craziness, it helped me be more compassionate and insightful with other people and a more of an understanding. Yeah. What other people are going through. That makes

craziness, it helped me be more compassionate and insightful with other people and a more of an understanding. Yeah. What other people are going through. That makes sense. In your post divorce second half of your life, this whole new beginning, this whole new journey, what would you say was the most meaningful moment of it all? That's a tough one, because it was such a accumulation of things. It can be more than one. Yeah, I think I think really the most meaningful I think really the most meaningful it was like accumulation of events that finally sunk into me that I could take, take control of my own life. And I didn't have to live that way. And at the one point time when my daughter had quit talking to me, and that one instance, that one little instance, when my son was really upset with me, that was the lowest I ever felt. And I thought, if I lose both my kids, and in high school, he would never do that. But at that moment, I thought if I lose both of my kids, what do I have to do but go up and try and figure it out? There was nowhere lower I could be. And so it was kind of from that point I started, what do I have to do next? What do I have to do next? So it really was accumulation of taking steps I was terrified to do. And I accepted a job after the high school where I moved to California. I'd never lived away from Portland. And I got a job at a software company, a friend of mine's sister was there. I'd never moved away from home. And I was terrified. And I had a one way ticket. And I had no idea what I was doing. How old were you? By then it was 49, 50. And I moved to California, I couldn't afford to go down and find a place. So I had done a tip training down there. And one of the women in class I said, could you

you? By then it was 49, 50. And I moved to California, I couldn't afford to go down and find a place. So I had done a tip training down there. And one of the women in class I said, could you send me the remember how there used to be magazines at the grocery store with apartments for rent? Yeah, I said, can you send me one of those? And she did. And I found one that looked decent that I could afford, because it's expensive down there. And I said, Do you know where this is? What do you think of this area? And I'd been in Mission Viejo doing training. So I thought, Wow, this is well, Southern California, I thought this is utopia. Yeah. And, and so she had a friend in the police department, and they ran the address to make sure they didn't have a lot of holes there. Yeah. And I thought, Okay. And so I made the arrangements to leave my job. I flew down there, my son and one of his friends drove a U-Haul truck with my stuff. And I got out of the airport, got a rental car and had no idea how to get to my apartment. And at that time, there were still bookstores where they sold Thomas guides. And I went to the bookstore and I bought a Thomas guide and figured out where I lived. And finally found my place. And then I and then she said, Well, when's your refrigerator being delivered? And I said, What refrigerator? And she said, Well, no apartments in Orange County come with refrigerators. I don't know how it is now. But then Yeah, she said, and I don't have a refrigerator apartments always come with refrigerators. Yeah. So I had a styrofoam cooler for a week till I could get a refrigerator. And so anyway, it was it was a fun apartment. And it was so fun to be on my own. And to be in that surreal environment of Southern California near

for a week till I could get a refrigerator. And so anyway, it was it was a fun apartment. And it was so fun to be on my own. And to be in that surreal environment of Southern California near the beach. Yeah, I was only there for 10 months until I got transferred but to Arizona, but I never would have been able to afford to buy a house there. But it was what a great landing pad though for your first experience of your first step into this new journey. Yeah, what a great, you know, transitional space for you there. And then you had Arizona in your swing dancing. Yeah. You know, I mean, honestly, yeah, it was every step of the way allowed me more and more growth. And when I first moved to California, I was, I thought I was taking a job as customer support for the student information system, which is what I did at the school, scheduling, grading, all that stuff. What it actually was was for the accounting department. I hate numbers. I remember saying at one point, I would never take a job in accounting. I hate numbers. I'm not good at them. The job was customer support for the personnel payroll people. And so anyway, I learned that, but I, one of the people there, I got to be friends with her and she said, Hey, there's a training coming up, but it's on the student side. And she knew I wanted to veer that way. So she helped me transition to that. And then she talked to my boss and said, you know, there's a project management job coming up. I think she could do it. I'll go with her. She, this gal was in sales. She's all go with her to kind of go, but I think she can do it. And I'm really organized. So that was right up my alley. And so she was wonderful. And she helped me get to this. So when the company was acquired and I had to move to Arizona,

And I'm really organized. So that was right up my alley. And so she was wonderful. And she helped me get to this. So when the company was acquired and I had to move to Arizona, my title was project manager, which allowed me to ease into it than in Arizona. Yeah. So I just am grateful for the people that helped guide me to different things. And I would take jobs that I really didn't know how to do with the belief that I could learn them. But I did. And if I could just fake it till I actually learn them. It's the best advice though. Right. Take it because you will learn them if you, if you're coachable and yeah. I got to pause for a second. You, you did this at 48 or 49 50 49 50. Yeah. Yeah. This whole new beginning of a life. Yeah. I mean, that's remarkable because we've had other guests on and people chime in on our socials about what you, what you're describing. And there is a lot of fear there. And, and you just hit a home run on it. It's remarkable. Really. It's terrifying. And every step of the way, like even when I moved out, I moved out because I was, I knew I could build, rebuild a life better than he could. So I'll leave the house. Yeah. I had no clue how I had no clue how. I mean, I was barely making it when I was still at the school and somebody say, Oh, let's run up to McDonald's for lunch. I'd make an excuse. So they didn't have enough money for a month. Donald's hamburger. I just, I figured it out as I went, but I was terrified when I flew down to California, a friend of mine was a United Airlines exec. And he had as a surprise, pumped me up to first class, which I'd never been in. But when I sat there, it was just a blessing because I was in the first row and nobody sat next to me. And I really looked at my ticket and it was one way.

which I'd never been in. But when I sat there, it was just a blessing because I was in the first row and nobody sat next to me. And I really looked at my ticket and it was one way. And it hit me. I'd made this because I can't sometimes I just keep, I mean, I still will do that. I'll do this and I'll figure it out later. I've done that a lot. And that was the figuring it out later that hit me in the head. This is a one way ticket. And it hit me on the plane. Nobody was in the seat next to me. And I was in tears a lot of that flight because the reality hit me. I'm making all these changes, all these decisions on the belief that I can make it work, but I really had no idea how. But it was such a transitional moment. Yeah. That was the transitional moment right there. And kind of like going into that next step, you were actually in an airplane doing it because then you get to Arizona. Well, I was moving to California, right? Arizona. You get to Arizona and how long were you in Arizona? It was I moved there in 97, April of 97. And so about six years because I moved back to Portland in May of 2023. And what brought you back to Portland? Not 23, 2003. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was missing the Northwest. Arizona's all fun and games when it's winter. Right. Summer's not so fun. Yeah. I miss I'm born and raised Northwest. I miss the landscape and the seasons of the Northwest. My mom was getting older and she was getting ready to have open heart surgery. And I thought, it's time I make that change. It's time I moved back home. I was missing family. I was missing more than just fly up at Christmas. Right. So and so the boss I had by then I was full on doing project management, traveling all over the country, implementing schools. And I said, you

missing more than just fly up at Christmas. Right. So and so the boss I had by then I was full on doing project management, traveling all over the country, implementing schools. And I said, you know, I'm pretty much working from home here. It's really no different if I work from home in Oregon and they let me they let me do that. It's wonderful. So yeah, I was super, super happy about that. And then I got there. My son at the time was doing real estate. So we kind of went back and forth. He'd send me houses and, you know, because at the time I moved to Arizona, the market was really, really low. So I could afford to get into a house for very little brand new being built house, start shooting up right after. But and so it gave me something to work with when I came back home. And he did all the leg work. He'd send me pictures. And then he finally said, I think I found the one because I told him like my hard half to haves. And he called me and said, I think I found I think I found just what you want. But this thing is not going to stay on the market. And he says, could you come up tomorrow? And I said, you know what a one day airfare. I think it's going to be worth it. And so I did. I flew up in the next morning, looked at the house and I said, you are so right. This is exactly it. And he said, OK, says I'm just going to have you sign a few things. I'll take care of everything and we'll do everything else by fax. I stopped at the cell phone store, got an Oregon number and flew back to Arizona that night. And that was it. The rest of the rest of what we did. He took care of all the stuff for me. Facts, things that I if I needed to sign more to care of all the rest. And I moved back in April or May. Yeah. And you've been back there since. Yes.

He took care of all the stuff for me. Facts, things that I if I needed to sign more to care of all the rest. And I moved back in April or May. Yeah. And you've been back there since. Yes. Yes. And are you still doing the same? Like you're not working. So are you? No, I when I moved back, I still had that project management job. And until 2008, I had it for like five, five more years. And then there was another acquisition of our company. And with that comes reduction in force. And I could see it coming and that they didn't need all that. And so I the person with TIP, they need they were needing a crisis team manager because one had just left. And I was friends with the executive director and she was what do you think you think that I'd been I had volunteered with him for quite a number of years. And it was like a ginormous pay cut. But it was it was I believe in their their mission. And so I took on the job as crisis team manager. So I managed about 200 volunteers and helped run that program for our listeners. Can you say what TIP stands for? Sure. It's trauma intervention program. And it's a very rare program that provides emotional first aid to people that are in crisis. It could be anything from a house fire. And there's people just until Red Cross comes or family comes. It could be a spouse waking up and their husband or wife has died. And they don't know what to do. And their children maybe aren't near, they may not have anybody. And so we respond within 24 hours and provide emotional and practical support until their main support system arrives. And then along with that support police and fire. And is that all over the country? There's about 20 chapters in different parts of the country. I retired from there a few years ago. Well I

arrives. And then along with that support police and fire. And is that all over the country? There's about 20 chapters in different parts of the country. I retired from there a few years ago. Well I had the the paid position the staff position for three years. And then and then I retired from there in 2011. And at that time there was actually a Pensacola chapter. I'm not sure if that's still there. But there's about 20 chapters around the country. Yeah. And so when I retired then I would just do some part time stuff. I really like still being engaged to keep my brain going. And so now for the last seven years I've done a part time contracting position for a company that teaches English to children around the world. It's conversational English. And I do it's funny because I did run those programs and I was in management for all those years. But now I'm just like the sweet spot of being the data entry person. And so the subject matter experts create the curriculum and I input it into our online system. Okay. Yeah. So it's it's roughly 60 hours a month. Some more some less right right around there. And and so yeah I really like it. So did you find when you were working with tip you really were able to utilize your own personal experiences pretty regularly. In a way I would be able to utilize it from my intern not from any communicating with the customer but just how I heard the client but how I interacted with them because it's a lot of listening. It's a support. We are not telling anybody how to do anything. We're not because the minute you do that you take away a person's power. And so interesting the more we let them make the decisions with our support the more they right away start getting back some of their power

the minute you do that you take away a person's power. And so interesting the more we let them make the decisions with our support the more they right away start getting back some of their power because some would say I don't know who to call. I don't know what funeral home and we had a resource book that would list all the funeral homes. Well first of all contractually we couldn't call and talk to them. But second if I just am with you and say well did you have any other family member who had to use. Do you remember what it was or do you kind of guide them. They're the ones that make so now right even in this tragedy they're starting to make decisions and they're starting baby steps of taking back their power because it's not to us. We always got feedback letters from clients and one of the best letters I ever got was a person saying she didn't know how she'd get through it. If the tip volunteer wasn't there and it was it happened to be me we only went by first names and it was me and she said I don't know how I would have gone through it without her there and on and on and on literally I sat and listened to her and was quiet and being there are the two key words. I didn't do anything I just listened and then suggested you have somebody else to call. Did you have a church you went to is there somebody you think you know. You were the anchor the anchor that you talked about you said if someone has an anchor person they can get through anything you were serving as the anchor person for those people. Yeah that's a good way to help them get get through those moments as the anchor. Yeah that's a good way to put it because it is there's so much you know and nobody wakes up in the morning thinking that by the end of the day

them get get through those moments as the anchor. Yeah that's a good way to put it because it is there's so much you know and nobody wakes up in the morning thinking that by the end of the day they have to plan a funeral. Yeah and so you're reeling and having and so it's just like helping them or if it's an older person are there medications you take. Yeah just helping those kind of things. Yeah so that's what the program is. So I do have a question what advice for anyone that's listening that maybe is in an abusive situation an abusive relationship and they're in it like there isn't necessarily a light right that's close at the end of the tunnel but it's somewhere down there but what advice would you give to that person. If there is any one person that you really truly trust that you can confide in that could help you connect there are places to go safe places to go there are people there to help and if you're being abused you're you're being told the reason you're abused is all lies you know those are not the truth it's what you're being told and you do have power and it is not easy it is really really hard. You have to be brave enough for that moment there's that there's that phrase out of that movie we bought a zoo. Oh yeah I don't think oh I have seen that but I don't remember. It's like we bought a zoo. Yeah yeah and there's a phrase in there which I actually have on my wall 20 seconds of insane courage can change your life and really it's it's your internal decision that it's not your fault that you're being beat up or that you're being emotionally inverted. Nobody deserves that nobody deserves that and you just have to take that first step of reaching out to somebody that you can trust

being beat up or that you're being emotionally inverted. Nobody deserves that nobody deserves that and you just have to take that first step of reaching out to somebody that you can trust to help you sort through it because it will not get better no matter how many times they say I'm sorry I'll do this I'll do that if they do it in the first place it will never get better it will only get worse and that's a fact. Yeah I really like how you said you said you have power because I think that's the one thing that they feel they don't have at all. Well it's beat out of you absolutely not physically the emotionally mentally the power is beat out of you you you truly don't believe you have it I mean it's not just oh I need to get tougher when you really do not believe right at that point that you that you have the power and so the biggest gift you can give to yourself is you got to find somebody first because it is overwhelming to do it yourself. Yeah well I think that um mental and emotional abuse is is such a quiet abuse because no one knows and sometimes you can be mentally and emotionally being mentally and emotionally abused and don't realize you're being abused for sure until it's gone on for so long so I think that one's very insidious more than you know a black eye or broken arm that's way more obvious but though the other one kind of kind of creep up over time so I think that that needs to be discussed more is that that silent quiet one it's kind of like how when girls are mean to each other you don't realize that little girls are being mean to each other but boys hit each other and it's obvious that I think the mental and emotional abuse I'm not going to say is more damaging because physical abuse is horrific it is but it's it's

mean to each other but boys hit each other and it's obvious that I think the mental and emotional abuse I'm not going to say is more damaging because physical abuse is horrific it is but it's it's it also can be more hidden the mental emotional yeah that's exactly right well it's invisible because how do you say you know and are people going to believe you what do you I don't have anything on me to prove I've been I've been in that situation and most people aren't going to admit it and my husband's case he was difficult to work with on his on his job so I even had somebody very early on we went to one Christmas party because he also didn't like to really socialize and this one guy who I didn't know first thing we did time we'd ever been to holiday party and he comes up to me my husband wasn't around and he said I think it was before we had kids um he says you seem really nice how are you married to that asshole can I say that yeah yeah of course and this has been very clean version yeah and I'm like why would you say that right I mean I was I was so naive and why would you say that and I was just so clueless I'm sure there were so many people scratching their heads oh there were you know in after the fact they were like happy for you and like glad they were they were they thanks that they saw that I didn't right as they worked with them or knew when when I came back from Arizona and and went to the first tip meeting to get back into it because their volunteers had changed and I didn't know all of them and my friend the executive director introduced me and I noticed this one gal standing by me had the weirdest look on her face um and she come up to me after and she said fix your last name I go yeah she's are you related to Bill and I said well

gal standing by me had the weirdest look on her face um and she come up to me after and she said fix your last name I go yeah she's are you related to Bill and I said well he's my ex-husband okay but I could just tell by her look well she worked with him yeah and my son has had that same experience almost have to justify that you're not the same right because the name is unique I'm sure yeah yeah so they he's had to do that where somebody would come up and say to him and judge him based on that until and he's after they happen on anything like my dad god that's that's the legacy that he left and that just says it all before I ask my last question though let's shout out your son tell us what does he do what what tell us about him yeah so he is amazing he's 53 uh he's a general contractor he's been a general contractor for 29 years now wow he started with residential and when he first started he was working I think like junior senior year in high school started working for a guy who built apartment buildings but he then did residential and got to the point where I'm done with homeowners yeah all sorts of things that there just can be annoying and a friend of his worked for the state and state department of transportation and they were looking for somebody uh because their state people when they give bids they're like oh this is the state we can really jack the price up and he doesn't operate that way he just this is what's going to cost I'm going to make money you're going to be happy and so anyway long story short he got into um they hired him as a contractor to the way stations along the freeway he would demo and then rebuild them and he he subs out the stuff that he's not licensed for electrician that kind of thing and they're getting very

to the way stations along the freeway he would demo and then rebuild them and he he subs out the stuff that he's not licensed for electrician that kind of thing and they're getting very technical now so he subs out all the uh cabling and all the stuff for to make all the signage and that and so now that's that's what he does and he's built a great life for himself he's got a couple homes and but he's a very very uh humble guy and very likes a simple thing he's not a guy that's like I'm very successful as a contractor so I'm gonna go buy all the stuff he's not like that at all he likes simple life um and just yeah he's I really love being around him he's a lot of fun to be around he has a million stories all sorts of interesting things so yeah I can say he's my cousin he's awesome guy yeah exactly he's also an avid outdoorsman he is absolutely and has been from the get-go I mean he's led uh hunting you know been an outfitter leading people hunting down hills canyon not easy that's cool and uh fishing everything hunting fishing you know I mean you name it outdoors and he loves it I want to get uh Brian and the boys out there to spend some time with him let Nathan catch another rich record surgeon yeah yeah I think he can do better than that well and he always has the the best stories and the craziest things that happen to him and that he encounters and um but he in spite of everything is a far better man than his father was oh he broke the cycle but absolutely yeah which is why I don't really believe in generational cycles because you it isn't easy well you break it but you break you can break it it's possible to break it you get it's possible to break it before I ask my last questions you have any actually that's the perfect segue into

well you break it but you break you can break it it's possible to break it you get it's possible to break it before I ask my last questions you have any actually that's the perfect segue into an observation I have here I've learned a ton about you and the fact that he's a good guy is is a credit to you obviously um I I find it fascinating that you experienced hunger and abuse and all this stuff and your ability to be compassionate you're compassionate towards others really is your vibe you just have this positive energy about you and I think that's why at 50 or 49 whatever it was you started this career and just took off I just think it's cool I think I find it fascinating how I've always viewed you as this positive energy I know she does too and I know Dana does and it makes sense now because you've got this perspective and this crazy background quite frankly um but you made such a positive thing about it and I just think that's that's your energy your vibe is positivity and and I think it's cool I think it it's cool it makes a lot of sense it's having a positive attitude really is important to me because I think that's where you control what happens to you to a certain degree yeah because if you're a negative person you end up with negative people around you and I just always kind of say I don't do negative what's the point yeah yeah and I'm on the downside of life why would I do negative yeah yeah it's true so thank you the other funny observation I have is I do I got to meet your mama and it is funny to think because her grandmother your grandma bev was quiet and your mom was more the wild one it kind of makes sense now and that came from a long time yeah well we learned we're at all came from that's where it came from yeah

your mom was more the wild one it kind of makes sense now and that came from a long time yeah well we learned we're at all came from that's where it came from yeah that's funny it cracks me up so my last question is always what is your five-year goal my five-year goal that's that's always a funny question for people to ask it at my age and I think my five-year goal is to continue I am so blessed with good health practically everybody my age is on meds and has some aom under the other I don't I don't take meds I I'm able to travel and physically it's the physical parts I look for and so my five-year goal is to hit my mid 80s and still be physically able to continue to do what I'm doing to be independent to still be in my own home to still be able to physically enjoy my life and and I think that that's the best you can hope for is your health because without it you've got nothing yeah you've got nothing 100% no I think I think that's true for everyone honestly so that I mean that makes perfect sense I um I remind myself of that daily is and my dad used to always say that because you know the line of work he was right he says if you have your health you have everything you really do there's no question there you really do because the wealthiest people have bad health and get sick and and die well what has the wealth done nothing right right exactly and you focus on that I just focus on things that I can impact while I'm still here if there's any person I you know just in doing things um I've slowed down on my volunteering just because I'm more particular with my time but I still now I'm doing twice a year at the high school volunteer interviewer for their career ed class you know so just different things um

just because I'm more particular with my time but I still now I'm doing twice a year at the high school volunteer interviewer for their career ed class you know so just different things um that I can advise high school kids on some things so I just think giving back to me giving back is really important it takes different shapes throughout your life and based on how much but I feel it's giving back do the right thing and take care of your health yeah to me it's simple but no it is you know it makes sense yeah well we can't thank you enough for sharing your story Annie Sharon honestly I mean and Brian already stated looking where you came from and what you had to go through to get to your authentic life for the one you chose um and then to thrive not just thrive in it but then to serve and be the anchor for others and to continue to give back and to not to use when you hit that rock bottom when you thought you might lose both the kids and instead of giving into that you were like okay it's only uphill from here and then going up um it's so admirable I wish I could bottle your inspiration and strength I could become a billionaire um yeah figure that out I know I know and I know your son is very proud of you um and I I'm very proud of you thank you thank you I am very proud of you and um you're an inspiration to me you honestly are and um to anyone who's listening I already know that but um your strength is it's honestly um overwhelming to have witnessed your story and to truly process the strength it took you know not just as my aunt um not as someone I love but as a woman I just think you're such an amazing example of what a woman can do and how amazing we are and someone from your generation um is just is such a great example

um not as someone I love but as a woman I just think you're such an amazing example of what a woman can do and how amazing we are and someone from your generation um is just is such a great example to younger women and because they're still in their journey and as you know you know um there's a lot of downs and so I just think you even sharing your story you're continuing to serve and give by sharing your story with the world because you are going to help other people so thank you thank you for letting me be here it's an amazing experience and really kudos to you guys for what you're doing thank you it is amazing thank you no this was lovely I now have a question okay did you have any role models to help there was no blueprint right you're a blueprint for people are you became a blueprint you become a blueprint there was no blueprint you kind of sorted this out I think right and I kind of piecemealed what I learned from different things like I piecemealed the things I learned from Al-Anon I got a little bit of strength from that learning I didn't cause it and I can't do anything about it and then different volunteer programs I'd learn more about wow this is sounding this is sounding like my life and that's not normal that's considered you know an abuse it's you know different things and I I sort of piecemealed and then because I'm sometimes annoyingly curious I am curious about everything and so um my son will kid say you ask the dumbest questions because I want to know and so because of my own curiosity I would always look at well how can I make this work yeah I don't know how but how can I make this work so I just have to figure it out learn more figure it out and so it wasn't necessarily that there was a role model as

know how but how can I make this work so I just have to figure it out learn more figure it out and so it wasn't necessarily that there was a role model as there was piecemeals uh and just figuring I'll step off the cliff and figure it out I I didn't I just put different pieces together and over time each step gives you strength to take the next step and if you can do this really hard thing then maybe I can do the next hard thing I don't know but maybe you build some momentum yeah and you build you build confidence yeah and you build confidence and oh I'm taking on this job I really don't have a clue about but if I have the right people around me they can help me learn and then oh I can do this job you know and so it's just little teeny bits it's no big revelation that's for sure it's just little bits consistency yeah consistency well now you are a resource for people by putting the story out here you'll be a resource so again thank you sure absolutely absolutely and to our listeners if you have any comments and questions or questions you know we always love to hear them so please leave them for us and again thank you Sharon for joining us and we will see you next time bye