Episode 60 - GenX Speaks Series: Kim Muench - Parent Coach

Welcome to GenX Adulting and today we have Kim Muench founder of Real Life Parent Guide with us. Welcome, Kim. Thank you. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you, Nicole and Brian. Thanks for having me here. We are so thrilled to have you. And our first question is always, what year were you born? OK, so you are Gen X. Nice. And where were you born? at Milwaukee, Wisconsin Midwest. all right, yeah, Midwest. can sometimes in your clips on social media, I can hear the accent on certain words, because I have family from Michigan. So that's the same words that I'm like, she's in the Midwest somewhere. I just wasn't sure. car, anything with an R, I think, is one of those things. Yeah. And do you say pop instead of soda? Okay, my family says pop. That's so interesting. Okay. Illinois and um Michigan were the pop and I don't, for whatever reason, I grew up saying Soda. Okay, so we say soda. Yeah, we don't say pop. You're Jersey. I'm Oregon. said soda growing up. My other relatives in West Virginia say pop. Okay. Very confusing. That's interesting. Now, as far as Milwaukee, how far back do the generations go? Was it your grandparents that moved there? Was your great grandparents? Do you know? that's such a good question. I didn't realize that was going to be. uh Yes, my grandparents live there and great grandparents live there. Beyond that, I don't have any clue, yeah. So my grandparents, my paternal grandparents were in that area. My mom actually is from the middle of Wisconsin and moved down to Milwaukee to go to x-ray tech school in the mid sixties. And that's where she met my dad and they got married and yada yada, all the things. Look at her because mid-60s, that's pretty progressive for a woman then at that time, right? yeah, yeah.

And that's where she met my dad and they got married and yada yada, all the things. Look at her because mid-60s, that's pretty progressive for a woman then at that time, right? yeah, yeah. mean, it's she left Wisconsin Rabbids, which is I think the middle of the state and came down and um she only did that for a short time though before she was married and had me. I pretty much came along like right after my parents were, you know, I think I was 10 months into their marriage that they had me. So yeah, so she did not she then she was full time mom from that point on. Okay, so your paternal and maternal grandparents from Wisconsin, right? Your mom comes down to go to x-ray tech school, what you call it? Okay, had she gotten an undergraduate before that or was that her schooling? was right after high school. Yeah. Gosh, that's so cool. I haven't heard of anyone like, because she would have been, what a, but yeah, but was she Boomer or Silent Jen? So she was that silent Jen, think she was a silent Jen. So, yeah, because I think for most of those girls, it was like secretary school or nursing maybe. But X-ray tech, that's a new one. And then how did she meet your dad? Was he also going to school for that? I think it was a roommate of hers that um introduced, she was dating someone and my dad was looking for someone to date and so they connected that way. So they were set up, yes. Okay. And do you know how long they dated before they got married? Not real long. don't think it was, it might have been a year. I don't think it was very long. I know my dad was 28 at the time when they started dating, or 27 going on 28, and my mom was 22 at the time.

don't think it was, it might have been a year. I don't think it was very long. I know my dad was 28 at the time when they started dating, or 27 going on 28, and my mom was 22 at the time. So if she came down at 18 or 19, let's say it was close to 19, then she had a couple of years that she was doing x-ray tech and whatnot before maybe they started dating. But they didn't have a very long courtship. I think my mom felt he was the one, right? Subsequently, 39 years later, my parents have divorced. But at the moment, right, it was a short courtship. They certainly had a long marriage based on a short courtship. got married and had kids, probably like lots of other people, like right away, Catholic. I was the first, I have two younger brothers, yes. Okay, well for Catholic, that's a small family. Yeah. It is, it is, and especially considering that I have five kids myself and um yeah, so yeah, it is, it was smaller. My dad is, well, he's retired at this point, but he's a stockbroker slash money manager. So he managed. people's money for them, their retirement savings and whatnot. And like I said, my mom, once she got married and got pregnant with me, she was an at-home mom. the, you know, my entire life, went to work in a wallpaper store. About the time I was like late in high school, she, you know, went just did a retail job some hours. I think my dad was like, okay, you, need to find something to do because like, if the kids are all old enough at this point, you need to go find something to do. So that's, that's what she did. What's the spacing between you and your brothers? Two years, I think it was like that Catholic, right? That they had me and then two years later my brother and two years later my youngest brother, so. OK, and so you grew up in Milwaukee.

Two years, I think it was like that Catholic, right? That they had me and then two years later my brother and two years later my youngest brother, so. OK, and so you grew up in Milwaukee. Did you ever move or same childhood home the whole time? same. Well, I mean, we moved around a lot in terms of the area. Like we moved to Lake home, a half hour out of Milwaukee, and then that was too far away. My dad hated that commute to his office. So then we moved in closer in a different suburb. So I moved schools a fair amount. And as a result of that, I had a lot of anxiety and I had some trouble like making friends and stuff like that. I just have always I always had that issue and it's funny because I promised myself when I was older and when I had kids that I would not move them around a lot. And as we get into the story, I'm sure you'll find out like that is not what happened. Which is interesting to me that I had made this commitment because it was so difficult for myself as a child to not do this to my kids and then we did it. Well, and that's how it kind of goes sometimes. You know, it's just inevitable. We do our best, right, especially as Gen Xers for and we'll get further into it. But we try to create the things in our kids' childhood that we didn't have. But sometimes inevitably it's like, sorry. Life happens. Not everything can be perfect. Now, the moving for you, was that during mainly elementary school or was it during middle school? Um We moved when I was at the end of third grade. So I had stable school for me. I think that was my biggest challenge was I had a best friend who lived next door to me and we moved I think at the end of third grade or middle of fourth grade. It was middle of fourth grade.

I think that was my biggest challenge was I had a best friend who lived next door to me and we moved I think at the end of third grade or middle of fourth grade. It was middle of fourth grade. And I went to a new school after like Christmas break and it was a public school as opposed to a Catholic school, which I don't know that it was a new school. Yeah. I felt like all of those kids, I'm pretty quiet, believe it or not, I don't know. In general, I'm pretty quiet. And so for me to try and break in to friend groups, it was really challenging for me. so I didn't, I made maybe one friend, but I just wasn't very comfortable at that school at all. And uh kind of an interesting story um that actually I wrote about, I think in my book, towards the end of fourth grade, I mean, was really miserable. and I was calling home a lot with stomach aches and my mom would come and pick me up and she'd then we had this deal where she and it was 20 minutes to our school so it wasn't close by and she's like I'll pick you up for lunch and then I'll take you back you know hoping that like that would appease me or and it really ended up being a cry fest to school on the way back to school every day so one day in I think it was late spring I decided I got this brilliant idea during language arts class that I was gonna leave the playground and walk home from school. Now, like I said, it was 20 minutes by car, so it was a very, very long walk. But in my mind, I was like, I'm done with this. I don't wanna be here. I'm gonna leave. So I like, it was lunch recess and I figured out a way to get off the playground and walk. I used my bus route to walk all the way home from school. In the meantime, obviously there's no cell phones.

I used my bus route to walk all the way home from school. In the meantime, obviously there's no cell phones. So the school calls my mom and is like, you know that, your daughter, she didn't come back enough the playground. And by the way, the school was right near a highway. So my mom went out looking for me and I mean, I'm sure given that my perspective now, I'm sure it was extremely panicked. She was extremely panicked. But I walked my bus route, which had very windy back roads all the way home. It took me several hours to walk home. When I got there, she wasn't there, but my next door neighbor saw me and said, you know, I'm glad come into our house. She had six kids of her own. She was very... very a very uh nurturing woman and I knew her well so I went there and she called the school and said you know Kim has showed up here somehow somehow my mom got the message of that and ended up coming home this is so classic you guys I just as I'm sharing this she came over and got me and she I could tell that she was both extremely relieved and extremely upset at the same time and you know what you think she's like just go to your room I need to like I need to just like compose myself so I went to my room and the next thing that happened was just a short time later my dad came home from work and so my mom shared the whole incident with my dad and I'm not trying to throw my dad under the bus in any way shape or form but I'm just being honest about what happened he came upstairs and he said You scared the life out of your mother. And he had a hairbrush and I got like the spanking of my life. And he said, this is going to hurt you more than it hurts me. And I remember him saying that and turning my head because I did not get spanked often.

And he said, this is going to hurt you more than it hurts me. And I remember him saying that and turning my head because I did not get spanked often. Let me just be very clear on that. But that is something that like that was, that was the, that was what happened. And it was never discussed after that. um I still really struggle with a high level of anxiety. and during grade school. And then we did move again in seventh grade. So I started junior high at a Catholic school in a totally different town where I was trying to make friends again. And, you know, I think a lot of that led to not feeling very good about myself at times and just really struggling to find, I was always the person that wanted to fit in desperately and was a follower. And especially during my teen years, I made really unhealthy choices just to be a part of the group. So. interesting going back to you saying that you switched from Catholic to public. kids went to Catholic and also then our youngest did the public switch and our older two did the switch after graduating eighth grade to public high school. It's a totally different experience and world. And I don't think unless you have lived it or had kids go through it, you can't explain to someone those are two different worlds. They just don't compare. so that shift for you alone would have been a shock to the system. And then and then just not having any friends or getting, you know, and then struggling the way you were in the spanking. We all we all I got the wooden spoon. And I know there are Gen Xers that got the belt. um And then I, of course, just got the straight up spanking. Were you spanked? I feel like I haven't heard you mention if you've been spanked before. was I got the spoon. You got the spoon.

um And then I, of course, just got the straight up spanking. Were you spanked? I feel like I haven't heard you mention if you've been spanked before. was I got the spoon. You got the spoon. Or with my mom, not my dad, but my mom when I really pushed her. Yeah. I'll take the blame on it. Yeah. Yeah. You and your mom would like go and get into yelling matches. But I my mom chasing me around the house with a wooden spoon. no, I've definitely had that. Yeah. And those things hurt. Yeah. I think for all of us, that's that's norm. And also the the run you're running away is pretty epic, though. Yeah. That's a couple. mean, I did a run away and I think I lasted five minutes and then turned around and came back. That's an epic runaway and you did it. You completed she ran away from the school to go home because the school was so bad. Yeah, her experience was so bad. But that's like to do that because so many of us in certain situations had those thoughts, whatever it was, school, home. You fulfilled it. You actually went on the journey and got to your destination. And I think that shows, though, how much you were absolutely struggling at that time. but what you know, our parents at that time, didn't have, there wasn't as far as I know. You didn't really talk about going to counseling or anything. mean, I don't think they knew how to deal with me. You know, they just didn't understand and I didn't know how to articulate. I'm anxious like this. I'm really unhappy here. Like I'm really, I don't, I don't feel comfortable. You've taken me out of what was my, know, and lots of kids have to move when they're young, but my parents basically found their dream house a half hour out of town and decided let's all move there and do this. And I don't think

decided let's all move there and do this. And I don't think that they anticipated, I would have such a difficult adjustment to that. Did you have to go back to school the next day? Like you get spanked with the brush, nothing's spoken about it, but then you're back in class the next day or? I'm not sure if it was like if I waited till a Friday to do this or not, but I mean, I didn't finish the school year. All I remember is that it was very close to the end of the school year. was still, it was still pretty cold in Wisconsin, but you know, it was probably May at some early May and school probably went a couple of weeks after that. And from that point on, my mom drove me, she drove me back for lunch. mean, so she, and I understood that there was not going to be any deviating from that. And I still spent, a lot of time. Like it was to a point where I had to have an escort to go to the bathroom because if I asked to go to the bathroom, the teachers knew I would go to the nurse's office. Like it was really, it was, was definitely intense. And, and, but we just didn't have language then for like a kid is highly anxious. Let's get curious about what's going on here as opposed to you need to be beaten into submission. Like you need to understand that. Yeah, no, was typical for our generation. You need to just grind through it, get through it, know, disassociate. It's your whatever you it's your issue. If there's an issue, mental health, anxiety, depression, that those were bad, bad words. No one talked about that. So when you started middle school, which is everyone, our listeners that are regular listeners know, I think middle school is a nightmare.

No one talked about that. So when you started middle school, which is everyone, our listeners that are regular listeners know, I think middle school is a nightmare. Whether you're a parent of a middle schooler or you're a student of a middle schooler, I hated it both times. So I always say I always feel bad for people that start a new school during that junior high because junior high sucks and then you're the new kid. Now was that when they moved back in closer because it was too far away? Okay. I started at the Catholic school, right? And I had the best friend and that was all good. And then mid-year fourth grade, I moved to the public school. And the reason I moved to the public school is because there was not room at the Catholic school for me. So the rest of fourth grade was that whole Catholic, or that whole public school experience that I just shared with you. Then fifth and sixth grade, was, they did transfer me again and it was a Catholic school. I wanna say by sixth grade, was in a little bit better regular position and I had made a couple of good friends. And then my parents, my dad was like, it's way too long a commute to the office. So let's move into, you know, a different suburb. So that's when we moved again. And yes, I went to the Catholic school at that point. um And it was all about trying to make friends again. And at that point, boys kind of came onto the radar. And so I kind of quickly, I didn't have a real relationship with my dad and if I look back on it now I think some of the choices that I was making in junior high and in high school were looking for male attention, were looking

relationship with my dad and if I look back on it now I think some of the choices that I was making in junior high and in high school were looking for male attention, were looking for acceptance and you know I made I some pretty unhealthy choices early on even just you know just trying to fit in and in middle school or in in junior high. So in junior high, are you talking about like drugs or alcohol? No, not that, but I would say promiscuity. oh Like, yeah, trying to become accepted into whoever and whatever would accept me. ah The alcohol came a couple of years later, but I can't say that that took place during junior high, thank God. Yeah, no, I can relate. I had a huge abandonment issues because of my relationship with my father. I think I started that stuff with boys in like fifth grade. Like I was they were on my radar and that was it. And I was doing I was doing stuff way earlier than my peers. And I it's because of the fight was because of I can say for myself, it's because of the father issues. So and then that continued looking back, you know, and we see that. So were you involved with like in elementary through all that and in junior high, were you involved in any extracurriculars, any sports, any clubs or anything, or was it mainly the guys? was, that was the other problem, right? I wasn't really sports oriented. Um, my dad was a huge tennis player loved to, and my mom would play socially. My younger brother, very good at tennis and my youngest brother, I think tried different sports and whatnot, but I was not one that really gravitated to sports. So I think because I had friends trying out for cheerleading, like an eighth grade, I tried that did not make it. Of course, my best friend at the time did. So that was a little challenging for me. in.

Of course, my best friend at the time did. So that was a little challenging for me. in. ah I think that was part of the problem was that I didn't have any outside real interest. The one thing that I did love to do was babysit. I was really, I loved babies and I had a family that I worked with. Like I would go there after school a couple days a week and she would run errands and stuff and I would take care of the kids for a couple hours. And then during the summertime, I was very active and babysat for them. Like she was a dietician who worked from home so I would come over at eight in the morning and stay till the kids went down for a nap. So I did a lot of babysitting and I really loved children. And I had my first child at 18. like, all of the, some of these things that, know, the making unwise choices with boys and things like that and loving babies kind of culminated in being a parent very young. Yeah, I was. old were you when you started babysitting? Um, I think 11. I really want, I really, really like went to my mom and I'm like, I really want to, you know, and so I started by babysitting with older kids, but I really did love babies very much. And so as I got more experience and then, you know, I, especially this particular family that I worked with, she had a couple of children while I was helping out with their older ones. So I got kind of hands on experience with babies during that time. So. So would you say when you first were taking care of babies, how old were you? Probably 13. Okay, so that's because I feel like so many of us Gen Xers were like babysitting kids when we were 10 or 11 and some of us were watching babies at 11 which would be unheard of now and third

Okay, so that's because I feel like so many of us Gen Xers were like babysitting kids when we were 10 or 11 and some of us were watching babies at 11 which would be unheard of now and third wouldn't, I mean, I wouldn't do it now, but I think that I was, it might've been 13 before I was like left alone with a baby. Now I didn't have siblings that I could see where if somebody was like the oldest child and their parent kept having babies like that, I could see happening at 11. Yeah. 11 and then being left with a baby and a two-year-old and a four-year-old and the parents. I was at least eighth grade. I think I was at least 13. But that's still when you, when I wonder how that would be perceived now. Like I still think that that's pretty young. I agree. I agree. So when you entered high school, did um you participate in any extracurriculars then or was it mainly school and the guys? Ah. Okay, so I went to an all girls Catholic high school, ah mainly because my best friend was going to go there and most of the girls were going there as opposed to the public high school. I was not jazzed about going to an all girls school. The all boys counterpart was across town ah and it was known that like the girls from this school kind of dated the boys from that school and actually in my mind the boys from that school thought their shit didn't stink and you know was It was, it definitely created some problems during my high school years. But um I started by, my parents of course were encouraging me, get involved in something Kim, do something, you know. And I did work on the makeup crew. So the makeup crew for the theater project, you know. Like I was such a girly girl. Like I was definitely not into sports.

And I did work on the makeup crew. So the makeup crew for the theater project, you know. Like I was such a girly girl. Like I was definitely not into sports. I was definitely into socializing, partying, being part of the crowd. makeup, hair, know, pop culture, like all of that stuff, that was me. wasn't, and I wish that I had found something that would have captured my interest. think that's really important. And, you know, in terms of having something outside of school to be a part of, I think it's super important, but that was not me. Yeah, but makeup for the theater department is a thing. mean, that's. Yeah, that's. found my, my spot. But, you know, I think that only lasted probably freshmen and sophomore year. And then I was like, eh, I can drive a car. And that's when I, you know, I got a job. I not only was babysitting, but I got my first job. I was scooping ice cream at Baskin Robbins. And I, and I did that with my best friend, uh, until we both, there was a college kid that also worked there. And one night he brought in alcohol and we were super drunk while we were. trying to scoop ice cream for people and I ended up getting fired. Thank God the woman who owned the ice cream store did not call my mom, but that's how we got fired. That's awesome. I love that. That is awesome. So you had said you did start partying in high school. So even though you're at this all girls Catholic school, you girls still party just like the rest of us that were in co-ed school. oh friends who started it before I did. Like I, and I saw some of like, you know, when maybe, I don't know, when you're 14, 13, 14 years old, like they, they attempted to do this in a way that wasn't healthy. And I've, you know, I've certainly been witnessed to like,

And I've, you know, I've certainly been witnessed to like, them throwing up and stuff like that. So I tried to like learn a little bit before jumping into it myself, but it didn't take long for me to like, you didn't have to twist my arm very hard. And we did a lot of, um we lived probably 25 miles from Marquette University in downtown Milwaukee. And there was a lot of dive bars in that area. So definitely as a 16 year old, we were going down and they wouldn't cart us and we would, you know, we would definitely be drinking. on even on school nights like I tell my mom I gotta go to the library you know I mean I think a lot of us did that. That is what we all did. And you just said you didn't get carted. And that's so accurate. You could go into die bars. You could go into places. I remember going to like not a 7-Eleven, but like a generic type store like that. And they would sell me alcohol. They wouldn't even ask for it's unheard of now. I mean, there's maybe like one place outside of New York. So we'd go in at 13, 14, 15 and do the same thing. You go to the grocery store, like the little market, get your beer and put it in a bag and walk around. I think now they at least have to have a fake ID. I think they have to ask for something because there's cameras. Maybe. So I think they have to actually look like they're looking at something. could be a picture of somebody else with the birthday. Yeah, depending. But I think the person working there has on camera look like they looked at something. Where back then... dangerous too though, right? Not just the university was probably kind of safe, but the city itself. Oh, I mean, I don't know, the kind of bars we were going to, I don't know that they were, it was near Marquette University.

Not just the university was probably kind of safe, but the city itself. Oh, I mean, I don't know, the kind of bars we were going to, I don't know that they were, it was near Marquette University. That didn't mean it was like college students were going in there. When I look back at the places that we were in downtown Milwaukee. And it was generally a group of girls going, maybe some guys would meet us out, but we certainly went out and drank as, you know, young teen girls in a group of five or six or whatever. I, know, and you do some, you just do some dumb shit. Like. Yeah. Well, yeah. And then there's like men there, right? You girls are, you know. Yeah. I think back on it, like, this was probably some, and this just goes to show again, and I mean, you know, I work with parents of this teen and 20 something age group, like, it's just so classic of how you can't see around corners. Like, you don't make the connection. Like, now I certainly see it, but then I wasn't really concerned. No, not at all. No, we had, especially our generation, gosh, not having any technology, our parents not keep really knowing where we were. The word feral does apply to us. It's not an exaggeration. We truly were out there just doing everything. So were you dating one of those guys from that school? Off and on I was. um Yeah. And I had a really unhealthy relationship with one of them that lived across the street from me. I mean, we kind of dated on and off. you know, I, here's what I thought. Here's what I wanted. Whatever I would see on TV in terms of like what I thought a romantic relationship should be. I mean, now having had, I have four sons and having watched them go through their teen years, like my expectation of my boyfriend across the street was that

I mean, now having had, I have four sons and having watched them go through their teen years, like my expectation of my boyfriend across the street was that that he would be calling me and doting on me and it would be this romantic thing and whatever. And now that I've raised teen boys like I know, he didn't have a fricking clue. And I had this vision in my mind of what our dating should look like. And so to be honest with you, I think at this point, he probably was more like hormonally motivated. So like when it suited him, he was kind and did the thing. And when it didn't he was like fuck it, you know, and I then was broken-hearted So I went between like I'm in love and it's all great and then be broken-hearted and I did date some other guys during high school as well But he was the one right and he lived right across from me so I could see when he was home not home I mean, it was terrible Yeah, but we thought we were going to end up with Jake Ryan from 16 candles. know, our John Cusacks character, Lloyd with Dobler, whatever it is, holding the boombox playing um Peter Gabriel. Yeah, we all thought that. And if they weren't doing that, then they weren't treating us right. Not knowing that that was, but we did, we all bought into that whole. illusion. You set us guys up for failure too. We didn't. Hollywood did. Yeah. Hollywood did it, but we bought into it 100%. Where at least now there are some more realistic, like uh I love this one movie. um my gosh. It's, he's just not that into you. Have you seen that movie? I know the title, I'm sure I've seen it. I can't recall it at the moment. We have a daughter. We have two sons and a daughter. But for my daughter, she'll watch it like once or twice a year as like a wake up call. Go watch it. It's so good.

I can't recall it at the moment. We have a daughter. We have two sons and a daughter. But for my daughter, she'll watch it like once or twice a year as like a wake up call. Go watch it. It's so good. But it's so good for girls to watch. really because it's such facts. We didn't have anything like that. It was basically like you said, like if if he's really into you, you'll know. But, know, or he's just maybe trying to sleep with you type of it really explains it, you know. really think, and like I said, now having raised four young men and knowing their um maturity level and everything, it's like, what was I thinking that this kid across the street from me was just like some boy growing up and like, again, I think there were times when he was more motivated than others, but he had no clue how to be that romantic partner that I thought he should be. Yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, you're watching out the window when he's getting home and leaving and all that. And I'm like, is he out with somebody else? You know, I mean, like, it was was it was actually terrible to have him across the street was a terrible thing. think that's all though now the kids they don't even have to live across the street. They can just track each other with um That they know it's almost like, know where they all are at all times So I almost the one the one-on-one maybe it was easier than what they have to deal with now. So You graduate from high school Was college always part of the plan was that discussed in your house is something you would naturally do Yes, and my dad, we were part of a newspaper article at one point. um I can remember the newspaper person coming over and taking this picture of our family.

Yes, and my dad, we were part of a newspaper article at one point. um I can remember the newspaper person coming over and taking this picture of our family. My dad had, like, he was really into helping people, you know, because of his, the nature of his job, helping people gather money for their kids to go to college and whatnot. So yes, I was the oldest. Yes, it was talked about. I mean, it was assumed that that was going to take place. know that there was like another option. But for me, again, it was where I went where my best friend went. Like, I didn't think too much. What? Are you still friends with her? Um, you know, it's funny that you say that I as I'm thinking about this and talking about this person, she was the best, um, the maid of honor in my wedding, of course, because we were so close growing up and we were close for a while after that, but it's been, it's been a long time since I've seen her and, they're just making me think that maybe I should reach out. Yeah, because she's kind of at least where we're at so far, she's been there for all, she's been. she was definitely a touch point. She definitely is someone who was involved in my life in a lot of ways. ah we went to UW-La Crosse, so state school in Wisconsin, about four hours from home. what happened, so we graduated from high school. The night we graduated from high school, I ended up going to one of these bars and there was a guy there that was a friend of a friend of mine that was dating someone. So he was a guy that I had known for probably a year. And, you know, we had kind of socialized, probably drank together, all that. But I got drunk on the night of my graduation from high school at this bar.

And, you know, we had kind of socialized, probably drank together, all that. But I got drunk on the night of my graduation from high school at this bar. And basically I became emboldened and like, I really like you, let's screw around, you know, kind of. So we started, we started dating like that night. through that summer, right? So I was set to go off to college at the end of August, just like normal, but we dated all summer long and it drove my dad crazy because... ah the guy that I was dating, his dad had passed away a year before and left him a whole bunch of money and he wasn't working and I was supposed to be working and saving money and I kept like calling in sick, just to hang out with him. So it was a summer of turbulence, which is not uncommon for parents to have when their kids are like going off to college, right? My dad was like ready for me, my parents were ready for me to go, I was ready to go. But this, young man that I was dating, He very much, because he didn't have a lot going on in his life, he was very attached to me and wasn't, didn't really want to let me experience college, right? So we had phone calls from the dorm room every night with the phone, you know, the rotary, right? Like there was no cell phone thing going on, but at 10 o'clock every night, he would be calling and checking in with me. We would be on the phone for hours on end. So it was this long distance relationship. He had a car, he would come up on the weekends, stay. in the dorm, suffice it to say, by Christmas I was pregnant. So to go back, because you talked about your job, was this a different job than Baskin and Robbins? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got fired from that. And then I did some waitressing at a place called Baker Square.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got fired from that. And then I did some waitressing at a place called Baker Square. And then that summer in particular, I had a job as a file clerk in an insurance company. So it was like, yeah. And then for the dorms, you and your best friend, were you roommates? No, I'm not sure why we didn't room together. Maybe I didn't make a commitment until later or something. I did room with a girl that I went to high school with and I didn't know her very well. We got to know each other, especially um after a couple of incidents that happened during um our dorm room excursion that year. um But it was an all girls dorm that I lived in and my best friend did live in the same dorm, but we did not room together. So wait, he's staying in your dorm room in an all girls dorm? So you were sneaking him in? Yeah, yeah. How did your roommate, how did she feel about that? She was very tolerant, I have to say, because dorm rooms are not very big and we had bunk beds and she would leave during certain times. I mean, we had a system. ah him coming, um was it up? you north? Him going up there? let's see. So Milwaukee, was like northwest in Wisconsin. him coming up there every weekend, that would have affected, assume, would have affected your ability to fully immerse yourself into the college experience. 100%. 100%. I mean, I, it was it was I really, I finished the year, but I will say because of that, because I was so Gaga, I mean, he, he treated me really well in terms of um taking me out and we'd go out to dinner. He was the guy that I really thought my high school boyfriend should be. He was extremely attentive to me. The problem was he also was very suffocating. And at the time I didn't see that. In terms of not wanting me to explore anything.

He was extremely attentive to me. The problem was he also was very suffocating. And at the time I didn't see that. In terms of not wanting me to explore anything. If I didn't come home on weekends, and by that I mean stay in a hotel in Milwaukee, not even letting my parents know that I was home, ah or him coming up to La Crosse again was like a four hour drive he would come up I mean I saw him every weekend that did you know It sounds like a combination of love bombing and control and codependency. were there times um up until you got pregnant, that first semester, were there times you wanted to break up or were you so in it that you couldn't have imagined not having? were times, especially because I had a core group of girls from high school that I knew that were going out and stuff and they were doing things. I think there were probably weekends that I wished I could have, but I also, again, was so sucked into the relationship that I didn't have the ability to stand up. for myself also, like I was the perfect target for this because I really was looking for love and acceptance and he, at least initially, was for sure that person for me. Now as far as getting pregnant that Christmas break, is that when it happened during Christmas break? home for, you know, that three or four week period of time that, and ended up like getting a pregnancy test after having a couple of wine coolers one night and finding out like, shit. of course he was the first phone call that I made, you know, like. And there was quite a challenge because he adamantly did not want me to continue the pregnancy, like adamantly. Yeah. Was he from a Catholic school too? But were you, now how were you with that? I mean, right away, did you ever consider it?

Yeah. Was he from a Catholic school too? But were you, now how were you with that? I mean, right away, did you ever consider it? I very briefly because I, you know, and I talked to my friends about it. I had probably five or six girlfriends from this Catholic high school that went to college. So I went back to school knowing that I was pregnant, freaking out. I talked to my best friend, you know, and not to throw her under the bus, but the consensus was you need to have an abortion. Like you can, you cannot do this. Like this is, this would be, and. I I with my son's father was, the relationship with my son's father was still in a good place. I mean, he wasn't happy about this. He was also scared, but we got along really well together. And so, you know, I was hoping for the best and also. Also hope that maybe this relationship would work out. Yeah, I mean I was extremely scared to tell my parents, especially my dad, obviously, but it got to a point I did actually call Planned Parenthood and in February I knew my dad was going on this golf outing that he went on with his friends every year and I organized having an appointment at a Planned Parenthood. I came home that weekend And went, I had my boyfriend drive me and my intention was to go through with it. And what happened was I wasn't far enough along, the doctor said, whoever, like they did an exam and they said, you're not far enough along. Now I was crying hysterically. So I'm thinking that it was either some divine intervention, knowing that like this girl, this is probably not a good thing for this girl to do or truly maybe I wasn't far enough along. didn't know what, I mean, so bottom line, I didn't end up going through it.

maybe I wasn't far enough along. didn't know what, I mean, so bottom line, I didn't end up going through it. And that weekend, I wrote, I was gonna take the bus back to school at the end of the weekend instead of having him drive me. And I wrote him a letter and I said, I'm not. I'm having this baby and I know that you're unhappy about it and whatever, but my mind is not gonna change. need to, this is what I'm doing. So I got on the bus and like I said, it was four hours away. On a bus, it's a Greyhound bus, you have several stops along the way, right? So I get there, I get off the bus, he's there. He beat the bus and he was really pissed. And um it led to like a very intense evening. And that's how, that's when I like really saw kind of um the writing on the wall in terms of like his, I mean, I would look back at it and say he was extremely emotionally immature and very, you know, just all sorts of things. But suffice it to say, I managed to, Stand my ground and obviously, you know continue the pregnancy and he Unfortunately, there are times there were times during the pregnancy that I had to emotionally carry him as well Which was extremely difficult? And I will say a couple weeks later I knew my parents were going to find out I are social our parents social network of going out with people and whatnot was gonna so I knew I Had to go home and I told my mom for actually I looked at her and I started bawling and she's like, no, I already know. Yeah, she's like, I already know, I already know. No, no, she just knew, you know, as a mom, you know. Yeah. And she said, I'm so sorry that you, cause I then spilled my guts about coming home that weekend recently, mom, you know, telling you I had a babysitting job all day, but this is where I really was and whatnot.

where I really was and whatnot. And so she was of course, very sad that I had gone through that and I wish she would have come to me, blah, blah, blah. And you know, just at the time you're trying to make decisions about these big things. and so she really, she said, let me tell your dad. ah And I was summoned home the weekend after. The weekend after I told her I went back to school and I was summoned home by my dad that next weekend. And he was very clear on how disappointed he was in me, right? He didn't like this guy to begin with because I kept screwing around and not going to work. And here I am, you know, just several months later in my freshman year in college, like now, you know. Right. There was probably a lot of I told you so attitude. I told you so, you're an embarrassment. mean, my dad, in looking back, and my dad and I at this point after much are in a reasonable place. uh So I don't wanna, but to be honest with you, I know growing up that the way we looked to other people, the way our family looked to other people was extremely important. looking back, and I'm not sure how much I knew this growing up. I might have suspected it, but looking back, definitely, the way we looked to others, my dad, My maternal or my paternal grandparents, my grandpa was a house painter, so he painted houses for a living. And my grandma worked at the phone company. And that she didn't do that until after her kids were grown. like, you know, in her 40s, she went to work for the phone company, secretarial kind of thing. My grandparents never owned a home they rented for and this will come up later in the story, but they they rented for about 40 or 50 years and an upper flat. I think that and my dad went to that all boys Catholic high school. Yes, so um

40 or 50 years and an upper flat. I think that and my dad went to that all boys Catholic high school. Yes, so um I think that he had some level of, know, he came from very, I don't want to say poor, but very, you know, they worked hard and whatnot and they worked hard for him to be able to go to that always Catholic high school because it was expensive. And I think he was always very cognizant of how he looked to others and that, you know, so me getting pregnant at 18, oldest daughter, you know, this was 86 or 87, I guess it was 87. Yeah, it wasn't as scandalous as it might've been like 10 years earlier, but bottom line, was still scandalous. For the perception for the outside world viewing. Yeah, it makes sense. And he's alumni. when you go, we still belong to our church and still are in touch with a lot of people from when our kids were there. It's a continuation. So that the way he looked even to people he went to school with, like them finding out his daughter, all of that, you know, so that makes sense. Yeah. So he he kind of ripped into that weekend. You came home. Yeah, he did. then I so I went back to school and I had the I did finish school. I finished school about six months pregnant so I can you know and it got increasingly more difficult to like be on campus and whatnot. I can remember the finishing my last exam and having to walk down the steps. It was a huge lecture hall, right? And having to drop the exam at the, you know, on the instructor's table and being definitely showing at that point clearly and walking out of that room and, you know, just feeling like all eyes are on me. was challenging, but I'm glad I finished that freshman year.

feeling like all eyes are on me. was challenging, but I'm glad I finished that freshman year. because being at home, if he had said, just come home and be home, that would have been really challenging because obviously he was unhappy. So for the next several months, my parents, a couple things happened. One, my dad first insisted that we get married and we sat down with... um my boyfriend at the time's mom who was recently widowed because her husband had died the year before. So we sat down with her and um we all agreed getting married, well, except my dad. We all agreed that getting married was not the way to go. And I'm really glad that we agreed on that at the time and I didn't get talked into something that, know, because that just would have made things more complicated. It was hard enough to move on from the relationship. ah That happened and then for months my parents, this was a time when if you wanted to adopt a baby you would put an ad in the newspaper. my gosh. And so my grandmother, both my grandmothers, my parents, know, people would be sending me these ads for people who wanted to adopt a baby, because obviously I was going to have the baby. And, you know, there was no discussion, obviously, with my parents about that. I was definitely going to have it, but it was like you either get married or you're giving this child up for adoption. And so I was getting these letters in the mail with well-meaning relatives who kept looking for me to give this child up and whatnot. on the way back, so at the end of the school year, I mean, really had trouble sleeping at night, obviously, because I kept thinking about this court scene and giving up this baby. And I would end up crying every night. um

And I would end up crying every night. um I, when my mom picked me up at the end of the school year and drove me home, I ended up starting to cry and I'm like, I can't give this baby up. Like I need to be this. I can't even imagine having, going through this and not being, I told you before, I loved babies, right? So, so. were your girlfriends once you because they were initially were like, you know, have the abortion when you made your decision. Was it a girlhood moment where they kind of surrounded you and supported you? they were taking pictures of me every damn week and like my progression of my naked stomach. you know, like it was, they were behind me, but they also, you know, I also felt incredibly alone because I, you know, I was alone in it, but I'm not saying that they weren't, they were supportive of me. Right. college, you weren't doing any of the college things. And so during those weekends, like the first semester, he was coming home or coming up to your college or you were going home. For the second semester, oh you had this turmoil go on. But what happened the rest of those weekends? There's a whole semester of weekends. Were you just alone those weekends? we were still, I would still see him like every weekend. He would still come up or I would go home. yeah, so the entire year I might've had two or three weekends where for some reason he couldn't come up or I couldn't come home or whatever. And those were very lonely weekends. I remember the dorm had a big like TV room in the basement. We had one of the biggest big screen TVs and MTV was always on that. go down and like sit in there and it smelled like smoke and I would just sit in there and like watch MTV videos all weekend because you know my friends were doing other things and

go down and like sit in there and it smelled like smoke and I would just sit in there and like watch MTV videos all weekend because you know my friends were doing other things and I barely made it I obviously academically I was not a strong academic person to begin with but I barely walked out of that school with probably you know any credits I did in that relationship. So when your mom picked you up and you said, want to keep the baby, you were still in the relationship with him. So but you didn't want to marry him. Right, I knew that. knew it wasn't the right, like, I knew I wasn't ready for that, but we were definitely still in the relationship. And so that summer, I had arranged to become a nanny for a newborn baby. So my days, I knew I had to make money. I knew I was gonna have a baby and like clearly was not, you know, an ounce prepared that I like had no idea, but who does? But I was 18 years old. I knew that I had to be working, but I didn't wanna bring Embarrassment to myself or embarrassment to my family. So I ended up through an ad somehow found a Nanny job for a woman who had just had her first baby. So I spent the entire summer with a newborn baby She would pick me up at 730 in the morning. She was a hairdresser So she'd pick me up at 730 in the morning I would work till five or six at night when one of sheer husband would come home and I took care of the baby every day all day long before having my baby. So it was a good experience. Yeah, but you're doing this in your third trimester when you're the most exhausted the bit yeah, that's when That's like the hardest trimester to do physical, you know, yeah, but she was 18 and young Yeah, I was eight. Yeah, I mean, I don't remember.

she was 18 and young Yeah, I was eight. Yeah, I mean, I don't remember. Cause I'm just picturing that like getting up and this, grind in your third trimester, but I guess youth helped you probably in that situation. I also knew again, and boyfriend slash baby daddy still didn't have a job because he was too good to work at McDonald's and so it was an ongoing... And I was getting irritated because here I am getting up, nannying, like spending the day with a baby to try and make whatever. I probably made two or three bucks an hour at the time, um trying to get ready for this baby. And he was always of the mind, like, I'm not going to work at McDonald's. I'm not going to do some shit job, blah, blah. So. the embarrassment of family should have been flipped. That's embarrassing the way he was being like he should have been spent like I need to get a job. I need to step up. I'm to be a father. And of course, misogynistically, the shame was on you for getting pregnant. But can we look at what's going on over here? That's just how things roll back. I know. I know. It's crazy. When you look back and think of it, you should be so proud of yourself in that moment. My God, what a warrior. And then this guy is like, eh, you know what I mean? It's just like, it's. and then there was a certain point during that summer, so my son was born the end of August, but there was a certain point during that summer that my dad basically sat me down and said, if you don't give this baby up for adoption, you need to leave home. You cannot come home with that baby because He thought by forcing the issue that I would do that.

and said, if you don't give this baby up for adoption, you need to leave home. You cannot come home with that baby because He thought by forcing the issue that I would do that. And I do on some level believe that my father loved me and just felt in part, I'm sure he had his own other feelings, but that I wasn't ready to be a parent at 18 and in some level he was trying to protect me. So basically I was very pregnant at that point and trying to figure out how am gonna move out of the house? And fortunately the woman that I nannied for, I had gotten close to her and it was explaining the situation and she said, you can go on welfare. And I was like, welfare, what the hell is, I didn't grow up with that kind of knowledge. And so she explained to me and she showed me where I would call and what I would need to do. So I very pregnant went down to downtown Milwaukee and applied for benefits. Boyfriend drove me, would not go into the building, but I went in and applied for benefits and was able to, I stayed home until I actually gave birth, but I had this little tiny apartment I got just a couple weeks beforehand. And I moved out on $360 in food stamps. my goodness. Now when you told your dad I'm having the baby, you think he was surprised? Did he show any surprise? you kind of called his bluff there a little bit. I don't know if I answered to him. I think when we had the discussion, it was like, here's what's going to happen. If you decide to, if you decide you're going to parent that child, you will not be coming home after the hospital. And I, I don't think that, I don't think I responded at that point. I think I just knew I need to figure out an alternative plan. So you just kind of went through the motions of getting on welfare, getting your little apartment.

I think I just knew I need to figure out an alternative plan. So you just kind of went through the motions of getting on welfare, getting your little apartment. But was there ever a moment where either of your parents acknowledged you're leaving? ah My mom was very helpful to me in terms of she she she played it it was really difficult for her and She stood behind me, but also you know she was very Felt very loyal to her marriage. She didn't agree with my dad She didn't know how to, she couldn't really assert herself to say we're gonna do something different here. her way of helping me was this tiny apartment that I got, ah she helped me paint it and she gave me all her old pots and pans and she got new pots and pans. she was instrumental and helpful in many ways. When I came home from the hospital, she stayed with me the first several nights. I didn't have a car, so she would drive me this little place to home to be able to do my laundry and stuff like that while my dad was at work. I pretty much did spend a fair amount of time at my parents house when my dad was at work, right? She was definitely available to me and I couldn't have done it without her and I do a hundred percent understand her trying to balance. her marriage and a commitment to her marriage and standing by my dad while also doing the best she could to support me. because you also don't know what she's dealing with in her relationship. I mean, you might now, but at the time, there could have been major repercussions for her mentally, emotionally, whatever is going on there. So it was more like trying to be there for her daughter, but a survival thing for her as well. For sure. mean, my mom never had a career of her own.

So it was more like trying to be there for her daughter, but a survival thing for her as well. For sure. mean, my mom never had a career of her own. Like I said, she went to, you know, worked in retail at a wallpaper store once that we were in high school, but it wasn't like she, you know, I think she fundamentally did not agree with the way my dad was handling it. However, there was not much that she could have done about it. What about your brothers? Were they involved at all with you and the baby at that time? the two younger brothers. So they were, so I was 18, 16, 14. They were both at that all boys high school. Um, and, um, yeah, it's funny because even though we were only two years apart or two and four years apart, We weren't very close. I mean, I think we were close when we were little, but by the time I was 18 and this was all going on for me, they were kind of in their own worlds. They weren't unsupportive of me, but they weren't necessarily, they were in their own worlds. Right. Yeah. What about the boyfriend? What's he involved in that moment? Like in the beginning there when you're in the apartment with the he was. was. I will say, though, that we did prior to my son's being born, we did do Lamaze classes together. And at the last one, you see the movie of actual birth. And he looked at me afterwards, and he's like, I can't do this. He's like, I can't do this. And so I was like, Okay, so I asked my mom as a backup. Well, he would waffle back and forth and I finally got to, you know, I finally got to a place where I was like, look, in this moment, in this situation, I need someone that I can count on who is not going to be, you know, I just need somebody strong in this, because I'm scared. And so my mom ended up, he was at the hospital.

count on who is not going to be, you know, I just need somebody strong in this, because I'm scared. And so my mom ended up, he was at the hospital. But at one point left and met a friend and smoking marijuana out in the parking lot while I was giving birth and my mom was right there with me so yeah she she was there when when he was born yeah my son was born And whether you're 18 or 40 when you have a baby, it's life changing as a woman and becoming a mother. How was that when they handed him to you? Like, how did that change your life? Oh gosh, don't think, I mean he's 38 now, so like, I'm thinking about this and it's, you know, it was amazing. I don't feel, I don't remember feeling scared. I remember feeling it being, you know, a major responsibility. And this is so classic because at the time when you had a baby, um, they would take the baby a couple, just the night before you were supposed to like go home. Cause you stayed longer than, you know, 24 hours. but so, so the night before you were supposed to go home, they were going to have this like steak dinner that they brought into you they would take the baby away and you would have this special dinner. And it was like brought into your room. Well, my son would. and they could not calm him down in the nursery. So we never got to have that dinner. And it was like, remember thinking at the time, well, I just, this is what I need to adjust to. Like this is what it's going to be about. yeah, so. That's very symbolic of parenthood. You it really is. just you had it right then in the hospital. It's like that. Yeah, exactly. So then you guys, you and your son go to your little apartment. I assume you have a crib for him and.

You it really is. just you had it right then in the hospital. It's like that. Yeah, exactly. So then you guys, you and your son go to your little apartment. I assume you have a crib for him and. Yes, yeah, we had a whole set up and my mom helped me, like I said, the first couple of weeks. Rob is my son, Nick's dad. And he was there at nights and he was very, very patient with my son. So he demonstrated initially an ability to deal with sometimes hours of crying and all the things that go on with having a new baby. I think we worked reasonably well together. ah but he also he had a temper and he he was very impatient at times so probably when my son so we stayed together and when my son probably by the time he was two I pretty much knew like I need to get out of this relationship like this is not ah This is not necessarily healthy for me. I knew I would still have to co-parent with him, but I wanted to move on my life, myself. wasn't anybody else. was like, this is not a long-term thing for me. So. oh you guys living? never lived together. He continued to live at home. He would stay at the apartment on a regular basis, right? But he didn't actually physically, we never physically moved in together. um And it took me about a year to get the courage to say, want to break up with you. And that probably, there were many months of... him like stalking me, calling me at work, calling me at, and so let me, let me just go back real quick and just say, I was on welfare the first eight months of my son's life and I was so embarrassed by that. would go when I had to get groceries, I would go across town to at night when I didn't think I'd see anybody I knew.

would go when I had to get groceries, I would go across town to at night when I didn't think I'd see anybody I knew. And there was one time when I was at this grocery store and I saw someone I went to grade school with her mom was in the store. This was like 10 o'clock at night and it was across town and I literally abandoned the basket. My son. My son was in the car with boyfriend, right? I was the one that had to use the food stamps and whatnot and and so I Remember just being so embarrassed. I just abandoned the cart that night um So they were definitely moments yeah, I can just picture that and the heartbreak's like, the, cause you tried so hard to avoid, cause there was always that pressure right from the start of you getting pregnant of bringing shame to the family and the illusion of this perfect family and even post that now you're on welfare and trying to, you know, maintain that for yourself and probably in a weird way, subconsciously your family still. then and do all the steps to try to avoid that and still see that mom of a friend. Oh my God, your stomach must have just dropped. Yeah, yeah, I did. I remember, so my son was born the end of August and in November is my mom's birthday and I remember buying her a small gift and my dad making a comment about how that was welfare money that you didn't really, know, like it was just really, it was really challenging. And so I knew that. I had to figure out the problem with welfare for I'm sure many people is that if I made too much, so I found a secretarial job. That was really all I knew because I mean, I really didn't, I didn't have a college education, right? I just knew how to type and I knew how to work in an office a little bit.

That was really all I knew because I mean, I really didn't, I didn't have a college education, right? I just knew how to type and I knew how to work in an office a little bit. So my mom babysat for me so that I could, because there's no way I was going to be able to afford daycare. So it was kind of tricky to like, get my, wean myself off of that. $360 a month of help and be able to afford life on my own. So that was a tricky, you know, time. And I know there were times that she bought diapers and, you know, she helped and whatnot, but I was always very driven to be independent financially. So while she helped me and I couldn't have done it without her, I didn't stay in that system long. So doing that. you also had your health care covered with that too, right? Did you have? Yeah, and my son's healthcare. yeah, so, so I ended it like, started with a part-time position, um, where I could make some money, but then it became quickly evident that like, I need to have a full time with benefits position. So I went to work full time. My mom was taking care of my son full time. I, I'm sure there were words spoken between my parents about that, but I think at that point, my mom was like, look, we're going to help her. And if that means that, you know, I'm going to babysit. then that's what's gonna happen. um So nonetheless, my son was around too and it became very evident to me. This controlling nature of his dad and stuff, it just became very evident that I needed to get out of the relationship. And it took me about a year to do that. In the process of that though, there was a lot of stalking. He would call my work and make trouble for me there, which wasn't helpful. And he would call me at home and he would rant and rant

In the process of that though, there was a lot of stalking. He would call my work and make trouble for me there, which wasn't helpful. And he would call me at home and he would rant and rant and he'd come over at night and bang on the doors and. um my gosh, that's so scary. He would bang on the doors? Yeah, it culminated one night and I ended up calling 911 and they pulled him over. Like I said, I'm calling 911. Like you have to get out of here. So he got in his car, but they did find him and pulled him over and he had marijuana in his car. So they put him in jail for the night and the officer said, he's gonna be let out in the morning. Like you need to know that. And I was like... super scared that, know, cause I also know he knew he had access to guns. Like I was, I was definitely nervous, but oddly enough after that major incident, he stopped, we had to see each other to, you know, for our son's visits, we had to pass him back and forth. But oddly enough, shortly thereafter, he started dating and then married somebody else. for you. Okay, so he shifted. He shifted all over you. Total remarkable time in your life. Yeah, but also maybe spending a night in jail and if his family found out about that, there maybe was some real conversations maybe on his family's end too, like, I don't know. And between that and meeting someone else, was he ever physically abusive? ah Yeah, so that was another thing that kind of precipitated definitely like that was probably the straw that broke the camel's back. Like he was kind of emotionally controlling and abusive at times to me, never to my son. But there was a point at which he kind of threw me down and got physical. And I was like, that's it. Like to me that was like. right. line.

But there was a point at which he kind of threw me down and got physical. And I was like, that's it. Like to me that was like. right. line. Now the weird, not weird thing, but the thing is, what I didn't realize until many, many years later was that he turned that rage and that abuse onto my son. And because we were in relationship together and I never saw him direct that at my son, right? I didn't realize that when I left the relationship, and yes, was later find out he was abusive to that next person as well, that other, the woman that he married, but he also was very emotionally abusive to my son. He displaced it onto your son and also as a way to punish you. Right. And my son was extremely, my son up until a certain point was extremely loyal to his dad. So he did not like come home from visits and tell me. He acted strange and it always took a couple of days for him to kind of assimilate back into our family. But I kind of wrote that off as, you know, he's in two very different environments. Yeah, not knowing that his nervous system is completely out of whack and it's getting back to normal in those couple days, not knowing. so you end the relationship. You're working as a secretary, you said, full time benefits, doing your thing, right? Going through all this. mean, that's just awesome. You know, that's huge. And I'm sure your mom babysitting also. There's a grandchild there. So it's not just to help you, but there's a baby. mean, that's what she also was a baby lover and she dearly enjoyed. She was only 41 when I had him. so, you know, she didn't have again a career or anything. know, she really poured into him for sure. So that also gave her some purpose. How was your dad towards him as a baby? you

so, you know, she didn't have again a career or anything. know, she really poured into him for sure. So that also gave her some purpose. How was your dad towards him as a baby? you how was my dad towards him as a baby? I think, I think, I think my son sensed my dad's reservation about him. And when my dad would attempt to like hold him and stuff, my son, like, would cry and carry on. So my dad didn't want a whole lot to do with him for many reasons initially, but he definitely grew to have a decent relationship with him and took him to, my dad is a huge Milwaukee Brewers fan. And like when my son was four and five, he would take him to Brewer games and stuff like that. it grew, it grew, but you know, definitely initially, and my dad was very, He did not want to be called Grandpa, so he has always been known as Pop-Up because that was what he wanted to be called. um But they ended up having a decent relationship. But my dad did not all of a sudden fall in love with this baby because this baby I think knew... He was not necessary. like he his my dad would go to like try and hold him. And I think my son sensed that and was never really kind of cried a lot. yeah, they know. So um what was it like? Because you would have been what? Twenty twenty one when you ended that relationship. Yeah, was probably somewhere between 20 and 21. It was, yeah, probably, yes. I'm trying to think. I know on my 21st birthday, I was not dating him because I can remember what I was doing on my 21st birthday. yes, so 2021. I, so that flat that I spoke of a little while back with my grandparents that had rented that flat for a long time. Okay. So that flat, My grandpa had several knee surgeries and it was an upper flat and he couldn't do the stairs anymore.

Okay. So that flat, My grandpa had several knee surgeries and it was an upper flat and he couldn't do the stairs anymore. So they needed to, they were old and older and needed to moved into someplace different. So that space became open and it was in a much nicer part of town than the part I was living in. um So I was, I had kind of left the relationship and I was moving into this nicer area. I could afford it, not easily, but I could afford it. And next door to that was a town home. And one side of the town home was this young couple that had recently married and they bought the town home from the father. So the dad had owned the town home. Oddly enough, my parents had rented the town home from the gentleman that owned the town home many years earlier. Right, right. So before their first home, right? So my parents became very good friends with the townhome owner. Parents and those people bought their own homes, you know, and moved on with their families. Bottom line, the oldest son got married and he bought the townhome from his dad. My now husband um rented a room in the third story of that townhome from his brother and new wife. So we shared a driveway. So I moved in, my husband Tom, now husband Tom, but lived there with his brother and his new wife. And um I got to know, I knew of Tom because our parents were friends, but I hadn't seen Tom in a long time. So bottom line, uh We started, I ended up asking him to accompany Christmas party cause I needed a date and of course had, you know, gotten out of this relationship. And one thing led to another. And we started dating in December of that year. And he asked me to marry him in June and we married the following May. So we've been married 30, it'll be 34 years this May. That's amazing. That's amazing.

And he asked me to marry him in June and we married the following May. So we've been married 30, it'll be 34 years this May. That's amazing. That's amazing. What a beautiful, beautiful shift in your journey, right? To go through all of there's a you had a lot of years of a lot of heartbreak, a lot of high stress and uncertainty and instability. As a kid too. Yeah, as a kid. And then to end up with this amazing marriage so quickly after all of this. That's really awesome. Yeah, and it was, I mean, it definitely had its moments, right? Because he came into, he, I think he obviously wanted to date me, but I had a three year old. And he also, the reservation for him also was that he would see Nick's dad come and go, cause we had drop off and stuff like that. And he was like, you know, maybe they get back together. Like he, he just was kind of obviously standoffish at first. And I, I was like, I got to a point where I'm like, listen, if you want to go out with me, you need to tell me Tuesday because I have to make plans for this. So you can't just call me on Friday afternoon and be like, hey, what are you doing? Because that isn't gonna work in this situation. I would like to spend time with you, but I need to know ahead of time. And so that kind of flipped the switch of like, he got over, he knew that I wanted to spend time with him and he, anyway, we obviously, know. in the effort and it goes back to that movie. You've got to watch that movie. He's just not that into you because you know when they're into you because they'll do the things if they are into you, they'll do the things. And you're a new you're a single mom who's saying, I want to I want to go on a date with you or I'll date you. But I got to get child care.

And you're a new you're a single mom who's saying, I want to I want to go on a date with you or I'll date you. But I got to get child care. So if you want to date me, you need to get and he was like, I will I am into this. I'm going to put in the effort. I'm going to do the thing. He stepped up. You know, which is a whole issue with young men now, but I'm not even to go there yet. So but that I think that's just awesome. Now, what about um your next dad? How did he handle all that? You getting married so relatively soon after ending the relationship? yeah, he will remember he kind of pivoted at shortly after that major ordeal and started dating this other woman. So he didn't get married to her right away, but he was sidetracked. He of course had plenty of negative things to say about. uh you know, Tom and he, I mean, we had to like deal with that for my son's entire childhood, you know? um But I also, I think on some level, he understood that Tom was consistent and I think there might've been, had he been an emotionally mature. person, there might have been some appreciation for the fact that Tom had always tried to treat my son, you know, very fairly and loving and especially once we had kids, um treat him the same as our kids. Did he, once you were married, was that automatic for him? Is he kind of became a bonus dad for your son? Yeah, but he always, my definitely, my husband always deferred to, you know, Nick has a dad, like very clear about that. So he, I mean, I was definitely the primary parent. obviously for my son in our house, but he did things like got involved in Indian guides with him and if Nick had been more athletic, he probably would have been happy to, you know, do baseball, softball or whatever.

know, do baseball, softball or whatever. He tried to cultivate a relationship with him for sure. It was difficult because Nick went back and forth. you know, all the time and he had this very loyal relationship to his dad so I don't know how much Nick was necessarily letting Tom in. Right. Right. Because also there was abuse going on when he's with his dad, which you're not aware of. So it's almost like an uphill battle. Probably every time he came back, it was almost restarting the clock. Like you take five steps forward, three steps back, you know, progress and then back. How long after you guys got married, did you start a family? Um, it wasn't long. We were supposed to be on a two-year track, but in my mind I was like, I think in looking back on this, um... I think in my mind, like we got married in May of 92. We were supposed to be on a two year plan to get a house. somehow through the magic of whatever, we were able to afford a house like that fall. So we moved into this cute little bungalow and we were then gonna be on a two year plan to have a kid and. in my mind, I kind of took matters into my own hands. And I think I wanted to solidify this idea of we were a family. And so I was pregnant by Christmas. our first son was born in August of 93. Okay, and then how many more children did you guys have? more after that. yeah, so I have my oldest son is now 38 and then our first son together who is a Catholic priest is 32. And then we have sons that are 28, 23 and my daughter is 20. You got your girl. Yes, and so, yes, so I had my first at 18, my last at 36, neither one of those, you know, I, when parents say, I was the same parent, you know, I'm like, no, you weren't, you know, like, you know. No.

Yes, and so, yes, so I had my first at 18, my last at 36, neither one of those, you know, I, when parents say, I was the same parent, you know, I'm like, no, you weren't, you know, like, you know. No. No, we grow up and the oldest and I know this is your area of expertise, but in my opinion, the oldest gets they kind of grow up with us like they're the guinea pigs and we make all the so many mistakes with them and you know, and then we just I think the youngest gets the best. The best version. most mature of us. And the most money. Yeah. Yeah. oh I mean, she like when she came along though, I had three kids in T-ball or baseball or whatever. She also is extreme, was extremely, I mean, where my first son, probably tried as much as I could to have some kind of structure and nap time and whatnot. Like she was just on the go. you know, so she's always been. fairly go with the flow, but it's interesting now that kind of that as you're saying this, she has an apartment 20 minutes from where we live, but she spends more time at home than there. And I think she really enjoys being the only child at this point. Like I think, and plus we're, my husband and I are pretty chill to live with. don't, we don't ask very much of her. And, and so I think she really enjoys like the security of being the only child right now. It's almost like when we're towards the end, we have we have twenty eight, twenty nine almost twenty five and then fifteen. We had a bonus baby. Sixteen. my gosh, you just turned sixteen. ah But it's almost like he's enjoying the calm. You know, like there's the chaos and the craziness. And then now he's kind of on the tail end of this. And so he's he's getting that chill, calm. part of the parenting. got dragged everywhere as a kid.

And then now he's kind of on the tail end of this. And so he's he's getting that chill, calm. part of the parenting. got dragged everywhere as a kid. But got dragged everywhere because they were teenagers. but what is your opinion on the versions of parents kids get, the different, at the different ages kids are, you know, between the eldest, the middle, the youngest? Like, you think they, they do get a different version of us, right? Yes, they get a different version of us. Everybody has a different, like I have five very different temperaments and personalities, right? They each come in with their own temperament, personality and whatnot. And also... ah I think time of year, like I have two January babies and I hate winter. I have a really difficult time. I had two August and then my daughter was born in April and April is like spring for me is like, so I think my own emotional state was different with each, even though I was excited to have all of my kids. But I think that who I am in that time of year also makes a difference. Who we are in our marriage, uh financial situation, you know, I think all of those factors play into the parent that, um the parent that you are to that individual. Yeah, I never thought about like when you have them. But you're so right, depending on the season and the month, that could definitely affect it, too. That's the first time I've thought about that. So how did um as you're having your children, your oldest son, did it all blend very easily? Like was it just always everyone's together and other than him going to stay with his dad? Yeah, I think so. mean, for the most part, I think some challenges came along with him middle school and high school.

Yeah, I think so. mean, for the most part, I think some challenges came along with him middle school and high school. I think he went through kind of, he had some anxiety and probably as I look back on it, some depression. I did take him to counseling, you know, when he was like probably 13, 14, and I even tried to do counseling with his dad and him just because he was like avoiding school and you know, some of these other things that, and I think really it was anxiety and to some degree depression. things got a little rocky, I would say, between my husband and my son during the high school years because my son was not overly academic ah and never, he wasn't in extracurriculars. So like I identified, he kind of repeated this similar pattern. ah But my husband, my husband is very type A and very like had sort of, so because Nick was the first one, I mean, he's been this way with all of our kids, but Nick was the first one that was in high school and not meeting expectations and I definitely fielded some trying to be in between like I love my kid but I also have this husband that is his expectations are not being met so trying to weather oh both of those things was challenging. another thing that happened during high school with Nick was several times my husband found alcohol missing and he would come to me and he would say, this bottle was here. He's like, I'm marking these bottles. I'm telling you where they, you know, how they're set up and the it's moved, it's whatever. So then I would go to my son and I'd be like, Hey, are you like drinking like And he'd say, absolutely not, mom. Right? Like, absolutely not.

So then I would go to my son and I'd be like, Hey, are you like drinking like And he'd say, absolutely not, mom. Right? Like, absolutely not. So it got to a place where there were times when I thought that my husband was trying to create problems between my son and I because I had what I thought was a very close, trusted relationship with my son. It culminated on my son's 18th birthday. He had just graduated from high school and He didn't really have a plan to go to college and we were telling him if you're not gonna go to college You need to pay rent and you know, we were giving him the whole like here's what the next you know Here's what the next level is gonna look like if you don't go to college fine But here's what you're gonna need to do. He wasn't happy with those rules and on his 18th birthday my husband confronted him about alcohol and almost came to it and do a physical fight with my son. My son ended up leaving the house and moving in with his dad full-time. um I will say that his dad always, it became evident as Nick was growing up that his dad had alcohol issues and to not get too far ahead of the story. um at the time him moving in with his dad was because he had no rules, his dad had no rules. And so was extremely attractive to my son. Although I'm sure it had its negative sides as well, but he went and lived at his dad's after he died. did you know when he went to live with his dad's did you already have knowledge that there had been uh mental, emotional, maybe physical abuse? I'm not sure. Did you know any of that was going on? I didn't know that until many years later. OK, so he's leaving the home, which I know was absolutely devastating for you, I assume, especially in that situation.

I didn't know that until many years later. OK, so he's leaving the home, which I know was absolutely devastating for you, I assume, especially in that situation. And then going to a place where there's no rules, there's alcohol and then annoying to you some form of abuse, which is the negative part of living with his dad. But then he had the no rules and the access to alcohol. He's 18. No rules, no rent, free booze. He's weighing that. He's like, I'll put up with this abuse, which is what he's always known. But I get to also Was he still getting high? The dad? Was he still, I don't know, a Beyond, I mean, he was a very heavy drinker. I don't know Beyond that, what he was using. um But. I do know that my years later, I found out more about what was going on with my son and he would drink alcohol at night to go to sleep. So he was not taking alcohol. Like I stole alcohol from my parents during high school at times to bring to friends houses and, you know, drink with friends and whatnot. He didn't, he needed it to fall asleep to be able to really numb out. So that's what he was, I mean, I found out years later. That's what he was using it for. m anxiety based because he was struggling to sleep because of anxiety? Absolutely. You know, and I couldn't figure out as a mom, I couldn't figure out why can't this kid get up in the morning? why am I? I mean, there was so many things that like you piece together so many years later. Like he was my first teenager and I remember being, you know, having a hard time getting up at times. There was weird smells coming from his room and I couldn't figure, and I would go through his room and I couldn't figure it out. Many years later, I was told that he was brewing alcohol in his closet.

There was weird smells coming from his room and I couldn't figure, and I would go through his room and I couldn't figure it out. Many years later, I was told that he was brewing alcohol in his closet. And that's what I, I was thinking, you know, maybe it's just like teen boys. smell. can't figure it out. But many years later, was told like, it's, I was I was literally brewing alcohol in my closet, mom, like, top shelf, back brewing my own. so so innovative if he could have just channeled that into something cool, productive, you know, like a club or create something because that's pretty smart. If you think about him setting it up and, you know, there's chemistry involved in that and, you know, it's staying on commitment. You got to check it and all that. So so you had a whole brewing thing going on in your closet and this one's closet. And then, yeah, that's. But you know what? It's crazy because like I found out when they get in their 20s and they tell you things, I found out stuff and I'm like, I had no idea. I had no idea. So it's very like, you know what? I don't want to know. I just like. So when this was going on and he moved out, how how what was going on with your other four kids? Like, were how were they handling the turmoil? school, elementary school, a new baby, uh a preschooler. So they were in all different stages themselves. um I don't remember, and my kids would be better recalling this, especially the older two. I don't remember it being a major deal when Nick left home. He still would come over for dinner and stuff like that. There was no formal like, Discussion between Tom and Nick after that night.

I don't remember it being a major deal when Nick left home. He still would come over for dinner and stuff like that. There was no formal like, Discussion between Tom and Nick after that night. It just you know like so many things we just like kept going right, but he did move out of the house and He would come home and he would stay the night sometimes and he would come for dinner and whatnot and shortly thereafter My husband took a job in Texas so we moved we were in Wisconsin and we moved to Texas and that was an extremely difficult time for Nick because we really were gonna be very far away. He of course didn't know anyone in Texas. He wasn't necessarily invited to come along. And you know because he was living with his dad and he had a girlfriend and he was working in a grocery store and you know he was doing some community college or he was starting community college. So shortly after he, this whole incident and him being 18, probably within six months we moved to Texas. Your son is moved out and six months later, your husband gets a job transfer to Texas. You get the whole brood together. I'm thinking of you as a mom because I know when my youngest was born, I had a 13 and a 10 year old, uh almost middle school and almost high school. And I there's parts of those years I don't remember because I literally was just crawling through it. And I actually drank a lot then, too, because I was coping. So I would pour martini at night, sometimes both of us. Our forties is when we drank the most because of that chaos of having kids and all, not, not because of the kids. And I know that someday they're going to listen, not completely kids, but because of managing the different worlds of the kids and the stress of that and having a surprise baby too.

And I know that someday they're going to listen, not completely kids, but because of managing the different worlds of the kids and the stress of that and having a surprise baby too. Um, just having to adjust. But the way we coped with our stress was alcohol cause it's chaos. So I'm picturing you with four in different age brackets and then your fifth has just moved out. How are you doing during that? way, for 30 some years, every single night, about 10 o'clock, I would pour a sizable glass of Chardonnay. Yeah, yeah. just, was not one that would like, had friends that would like start drinking when they made dinner. I did not. was like religiously, kids are in bed, laundry's folded. I know what's going on for tomorrow and now I pour my wine. And only recently did I stop drinking like during the week. I mean, I will drink wine Friday. I'm trying to wean myself off a Sunday, like Sunday's like. I know. I know. of wine and, and, you know, but, regardless. So yes, my coping was part of it was drinking Chardonnay at the end of the day for sure. Um, yeah. just been off the charts because not just parenting normal, but then you're you've had this huge pivotal moment with your eldest moving in with your ex and now you're moving. Well now you're in Texas so your whole support world is... And moving stressful. Yeah, it was very, it was extreme. The whole thing was extremely stressful trying to find our household quicker than we thought it would in Wisconsin. And we had no place to go down here. The moving companies like, we packing you for moving into a house? Are we packing you for going to the storage? Cause there's a different method that we would pack blah, blah, blah. So anyway, and my husband, of course they wanted him too sweet in Texas. So

Are we packing you for going to the storage? Cause there's a different method that we would pack blah, blah, blah. So anyway, and my husband, of course they wanted him too sweet in Texas. So I'm back by myself dealing with the ENO and he's immersed in his new job and whatever. So it was an extremely stressful time, but about ah nine months or so after we moved down to Texas, my son had come to visit, you know, once or twice, but he called me in. the spring of 2008 and there were times when I would call him and he would not respond to me for two or three days and I just wrote it off as he's got a girlfriend, he's I don't know 19 or 20 years old, like he, you whatever. But it still annoyed me. I wasn't angry, I just was, I think I was worried. And in May of 2008, he called and he said, Mom, I don't remember the last two days of my life. And I've been in a blackout and it isn't the first time and I'm scared and I need help. So I think there were signs before that. Again, hindsight is like. oh Right? But I also don't, I don't, I didn't know how to deal with it. And so I think for that reason, and I know other parents are this way too, it's like, can't, you just don't like acknowledge that there could be a problem. say that, do you think you explained it away, denied it? You know what mean? What happens there? How you rationalize it? Yeah. Well, like I said, like I would call him and it would take him a couple of days to call me back. And I think, again, I just was like, well, he's, you know, one years old. He's got a girl. that's still acceptable I think I can relate to what you're saying, you know, although when my kids were in college if they didn't call back I was pissed. Yeah, but What you're describing is okay here.

Yeah, but What you're describing is okay here. I don't know how far 2,000 miles away or something. And if he's with this girl Yeah, yeah So what so what happened like what how did you what steps did you take after he told you this? I mean, I wrote a book in 2021 called Becoming Me While Raising You, which I think the title perfectly encapsulates parenting, right? Becoming Me While Raising You. And I really talk in there a lot about that journey that I took with him between that phone call and getting him into rehab. So between May of 2008, And in November of 2008, there were a series of very extreme, difficult events that sometimes put me on a plane immediately to Wisconsin to put him into detox, to get him and to bring him to rehab. But things unraveled extremely quickly between him telling me that he had a problem and getting him to rehab. And I would love to tell you and everyone else, anyone else that's listening, that once I got him into rehab, he knew he had a problem. He wanted help, but getting him to rehab was extremely difficult. And I would like to say that that was the end of it. You know, that things really turned around immediately. That isn't the case. He relapsed several times and what happened a couple of months probably I'm trying to think. Actually, I think it was a little bit more than a year after he left rehab and he, he, was doing better, but he, definitely had some challenges during that year, but his dad ended up dying of alcoholism. and so his dad, once I, the last time I flew up to Wisconsin to pick my son up and take him to Texas, to rehab that I remember there was a very pivotal moment and his dad's driveway where his dad hugged him. And I thought, I knew his dad at that point looked really bad, looked really rough.

driveway where his dad hugged him. And I thought, I knew his dad at that point looked really bad, looked really rough. And I didn't think he was probably gonna last too long. And I remember them hugging and thinking, I wonder if Nick knows this is probably the last time he'll ever, you know, hug his dad. And that ended up a little over a year later, that ended up being the case. And that sent my son in a major tailspin for a little bit, obviously. um He ended up in jail. Had he been cleaned during that year? These rehab attempts, how many times did he go to rehab? He only went inpatient one time, but there was outpatient, there was medical detour. mean, there were steps along the way, but he really only went inpatient one time. And yes, once he came out of that inpatient, I think he was there probably only 30 days, but he had a couple of... relapses shortly right after he got out, but then he had several months of really clean, like he was good. He was on track. And then his dad died in February a year later. So he got out of treatment in December of one year, February the next year is when his dad died. And then he really went into a tailspin and he ended up in jail a couple of times. And neither one of those times I bailed him out. And I think as a, he has told me that because I didn't bail him out in part, that's why he's sober and has been sober since then. I can't imagine how incredibly impossible that decision had to have been for you to not bail him out and to leave him in jail. It was, but it also, also didn't have financially, we couldn't bail him out. So I think in some respects that made it slightly easier. ah Not that it was easy, but I think when I, and the parents that I work with now.

So I think in some respects that made it slightly easier. ah Not that it was easy, but I think when I, and the parents that I work with now. A lot of them do have the means and I think sometimes when you do have the means it can continue the problem, whatever that problem is, for longer because you can afford to throw money at it. Yeah, you enable it. How long was he in jail each time? I think the first time was just like a 48 hour. He was in Travis County. And then the next time it was several weeks. And that was really difficult because he would call and he'd be crying and mom, this is not who I am. This is not, you know, and I'm like, I know, I know this is not who you are. But I, and at the time he was so I was actually, I actually felt he was safer in jail to himself and to others than being out of jail. So as difficult a situation, I'm sure it was for him. I had peace of mind knowing he was in jail. Yeah, you knew he was safe. Yeah. So when he got out of jail that second time, was that the moment that he decided to he's done? Was it just alcohol or was it drugs, Um, I think there are times when if he didn't have alcohol, there were others, but alcohol was his main, was his, yeah, it was his main issue. and I think he would be okay. He, the last couple of years, he's gotten involved with some other substances, but he's been alcohol free for 15, it'll be 16 years in May. So, um, 24. was 20. I'm bad with math. How old was he when he became sober? Um, let's see. I think, I think when he really committed to it, he was 22, 23. Yeah. Good for him. Yeah, no kidding. I mean, Well, he had to create a very different life for himself because obviously... his peer group or when you're in your twenties, right? Like that's what people do.

Yeah, no kidding. I mean, Well, he had to create a very different life for himself because obviously... his peer group or when you're in your twenties, right? Like that's what people do. And he was, he, ended up in treatment near Austin and ended up doing silver living in Austin and stayed in Austin. So that is a very right music. He was into guitar playing and whatnot. And, know, so that, so he really had to be very conscious of how he was building his life because that is the classic time to be hanging out in bars and you know, That'd be so challenging to become sober during your 20s and especially in a place like Austin. So he would have had to been so committed to that. I mean, I'm really impressed that he was able to stay committed to that. What did he so when he got out, he chose a sober path. Did he get a job and get an apartment and. he yes, he got a job. was briefly. He was briefly. um Didn't have a home like he went from sober living and he had gotten a job, but he got kicked out of sober living and kind of got connected with his now wife. During that time, so he managed to. Not be without a home very long. Right. And they've been together ever since then. So, and they're married at this point. But he, did he get an apartment, get a job, kind of get on a typical normal life, like path. So sounds like he did, and then he got married. Yes, and had worked for several years doing, he never went back to college. He has a love of computers and so he's worked in the computer field for a long, time. I will say that November of 2024 until just recently, he also has been through some... addictive issues and mental health issues. He was recently diagnosed as bipolar. So he's been diagnosed bipolar, major depressive disorder and OCD.

addictive issues and mental health issues. He was recently diagnosed as bipolar. So he's been diagnosed bipolar, major depressive disorder and OCD. um So he does deal with some pretty heavy stuff. And I do think. a good portion of that. What I learned in rehab with him was how he had been abused and physically and emotionally and mentally. And I could have, I want to say this just for any parent who might be listening, I could have really um done a number on myself for all the things I didn't see or didn't know. um But I really, I took note of where I maybe had been in denial, where I could have done differently as a parent. ah But I didn't let, I didn't get stuck in that muck of like, why didn't I see this? Why is this happening to me? Why, you know, why me? Just, you I didn't get stuck in, you know, like I'm such a terrible parent. I failed miserably this kid, all that. I didn't get stuck there. And I think it can be very... unproductive for parents to get stuck in what they didn't do or wish they had done differently. I think we learn from those things and then we do our best to do better from that point. Because can't you get stuck in almost making it about yourself if you focus too much in that thought process and then you're almost not able to be present completely for your child in the moment where they're at right now because you're still completely stalled and I could have done better. I failed my child. And then it almost becomes about you. And they need you to just get past yourself, at least for this moment, put that somewhere else. and be there for them, I can see how that could completely stall. Yeah, that's really eye-opening, actually. and so it's not, will tell parents this, you know, because they definitely come, you know, and I'm like.

Yeah, that's really eye-opening, actually. and so it's not, will tell parents this, you know, because they definitely come, you know, and I'm like. Parenting from guilt because of past things that you have is is not of service to you. It is not of service to your 20 something or whatever, you know child that you're you're dealing with so I knew like I need to acknowledge Where I wish I would have did differently I need to acknowledge like why didn't I see that? But it is not gonna help Nick at this point for me to continue to beat myself up and make it about me quite frankly and I I think it also helped because Nick did tell me at one point, mom, who I am today is a result of the things that I've gone through in my life. And I'm completely okay with who I am today. And so I want you to know that like, I don't blame you for any of the things that I experienced. You didn't know. I was very protective of my dad. You didn't know. What a beautifully gracious and mature thing for him to offer to you that moment to say that to you. mean, that's that's beautiful. That. Of course, yes, I want to cry right now because he's only 38 right now. And I don't know when he said that to you, but 38 still young to be able to have the wherewithal and the healing as an adult to be able to come to your parent and give your parent grace, which is what he did. That's amazing. think it was shortly after he got out of rehab. in some respects, he is a very mature. person, you know, I do, did see though, cause you know how they say like whenever you start your alcohol or your drug journey or whatever, you kind of get emotionally arrested at that age.

person, you know, I do, did see though, cause you know how they say like whenever you start your alcohol or your drug journey or whatever, you kind of get emotionally arrested at that age. So I definitely think that in some respects in his twenties, he was not as mature as he could have been because he, because of the drinking between 15 and 21. But I do also think that he, in some respects, was also mature and had insight. Right. You had mentioned how he had had the anxiety and it reminded me of when you talked about how you had anxiety. So, as much as it was nurture, this is mental health diagnosis from what he went through with his father, could there also be nature playing in there where there's a genetic aspect to this? 100%. I mean, I, I, 100%. And it's interesting because when you say that, you're, many years later, my daughter had this experience with anxiety around the end of third grade. And it really made me think about, my gosh, this is like what I experienced. So I do believe there are patterns and that sometimes our kids go through things. It may not be at the exact same age, but they may be experiencing something that you are really familiar with or it can be very triggering to you. It's like, do I, my gosh, I experience, and sometimes that drives a parent's anxiety level super high, right? Like, my gosh, I can't, you know, when my daughter was 18 and dating somebody, I was like, holy shit, what if she has a baby? And then I was like, this is not helpful, Kim. She's not you, stop. But I will tell you that I was very conscious when my son was 20 and came to me looking for that help for his addiction to handle things very differently than my parents did when I really needed them at 18. I very much was like, what did I not get?

I really needed them at 18. I very much was like, what did I not get? that I want to give my son in this situation. Yes. time. Yeah. Which I think GenX, lot of GenX is really good at. Yeah, of fault, know, because we... was going to go like I was going to say, like. No fault, we became the helicopter parents and we became in a lot of ways the enablers of not so great things, but we also were there in those important moments when the ones that we needed, we could recognize I need to be the person I needed at think she struck a balance too though. Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah. not bailing him out every time. That's a balancing act. There might have been circumstances that made it difficult or impossible, but it worked out. Yeah, yeah, I definitely, definitely, and that's what I work on with parents, right? I think we, Gen X, sometimes have over-corrected the emotional, the emotional support we didn't get growing up. I think the pendulum did swing too far. And so when I'm working with parents, a lot of it is where do we find that middle area? We got to kind of like correct course here because we went too far. How do you help parents with that if they're dealing with a pretty extreme situation with drugs or with alcohol or with mental health? Because the knee-jerk reaction is to probably do even more love, do even more attention, give more of their time, like Velcro themselves to the child. we're trying to swing the pendulum and find balance, but if you're dealing with these precarious potentially dangerous situations, what's your advice to parents when it comes to that? I want to tell you that there's a... quick three-step, not even quick, but just three-step process to this.

potentially dangerous situations, what's your advice to parents when it comes to that? I want to tell you that there's a... quick three-step, not even quick, but just three-step process to this. But what I'm always looking at and talking with parents about when I'm kind of investigating the situation with them is based on their history, what are they capable of? Based on where their mental health and substance use is now, what are they capable of? And taking small steps forward, or let me take that back. The parent taking small steps back out, So they're not continuing to enable the unhealthy situation, which takes longer than parents want it to. But I have seen over and over and over again that the way a parent shows up in these difficult mental health substance use, failing to launch situations. makes a big difference. The way that parents are showing up in the relationship can make the difference between whether that kid ever moves forward or not. As far as failure to launch, um are you seeing that Gen Z is pretty predominant in that generation, that young adults in their 20s, is there a high percentage of them that are not thriving in adulthood? Okay, so let me just say this. I'm not like a person who's into statistics. And I think, cause I think actually they can be manipulated for whatever situation, whatever you want. I can tell you from my personal experience, I started coaching in 2016 and I started trying to coach parents of teenagers because I didn't want them to get to where I was with my son at 2021. And parents were not invested in their parenting unless there was a crisis situation. So I got on TikTok and Instagram and started sharing my story.

my son at 2021. And parents were not invested in their parenting unless there was a crisis situation. So I got on TikTok and Instagram and started sharing my story. And what happened was in 2021, all I got was parents of 20 to 25 year olds that were really, really struggling. They were really in crisis mode. I would say, so just to give you a little bit, a little bit of background on um my business in general. I probably work with 30 parents, 30 families privately. I have a twice weekly parent support group that has 25 to 40 parents on it from all over the US, Canada, Africa, Australia, the UK. This is a universal problem and I have identified three things that have created this problem with Gen Z that I see just over and over and over again in the parents I see. I do about 20 consultation calls a week. I would say 90 % of those are parents of 18 to 28 year old young men. So it's not that I don't work with parents of young women and that young women aren't having their struggles, but by and large, I would tell you it's young men that are having a difficult. why do you think that is? I think there's multi, multi possibilities. I don't think it's a one, like I don't think there's one single answer, but I think young men are really struggling with who they're supposed to be and what it looks like to be a man. I don't think it's done. I mean, I know this for sure. This is the first group of young people who have had access to daily digital information coming in through social media and other, know, YouTube, all the things that has impacted who they think they should be, what the future looks like, has messed with their identity. I mean, I just, really think that

who they think they should be, what the future looks like, has messed with their identity. I mean, I just, really think that While we were instructed when phones came out and social media and gaming continued and whatnot, these things have all progressed over the last decade or 12 years. We were told to watch what they're, be cognizant of what they're watching on social media and how many hours they're on it. But we now have a lot of evidence because of this generation being so lost of the huge impact. That screen time, social media, gaming as a way to escape has just, has really impacted in a very negative way. um 20 somethings. well, it seems like it's completely warped their minds in that it has fed them so much insecurity, almost spoon fed insecurity and a constant need to second guess yourself and and and a complete obsession with what everyone else thinks. The gaming part is interesting. So we have a 28 year old who was a gamer, so still plays games. And then we have a 16 year old who plays games. But our 16 year old is really the first fully social media centered kid out of all three of ours. And I see everything you just talked about, the negative impacts I have seen in him growing up that I didn't see as much in just my 28 year old who just did like Xbox, which would have been just more talking to friends playing a game where he wasn't on TikTok. Instagram. So, but I don't know what gaming is like now. I'll put it this way. know my son plays Xbox, my 16 year old, but I think it's evolved way more than that. I think there's computer games and there's kind of become more like social media based and there's a whole roadblocks thing, you know, so it's probably just increased. But I think you're dead on in what you said.

But I think you're dead on in what you said. The gaming is one component, I think is what you're saying, but there's there's Snapchat, there's TikTok, there's Facebook, there's Instagram. There's all this bullshit reality for people who show themselves like on a private jet or something and they might have just snuck on or something. They're not actually jet setting around the world, whatever that is. Yeah, yeah, the cloud chasing. it's all very damaging. So basically, are you saying we're seeing the results of this? Yes, I also think we're seeing the results of kids who have seen an incredible amount of school shooting footage of beheading of like, maybe, maybe as a teenager, you had some clue what your kid was ingesting. But there's no way at this point, you know what your 18, 20, 25 year old is ingesting and these kids that are at home and isolated and bed rotting are scrolling. They're scrolling, they're continuing to get and they don't have the logical brain that's like, I need to just put this down because this is just really hurting me. They're completely sucked in and consumed and so anxious about the real world. It really is. having a major effect. It's having a major effect on them. like the war, the violence, the pornography, just the news. It's all damaging. They're becoming totally desensitized and their frontal lobe isn't even closed until what 26, 25, 26. So it's just open, vulnerable brain until then with all and it's just being shoved into their brain. And that whole saying of go touch grass, there is That's a legit saying because you can get so sucked into what's going on in social media. You've lost complete concept of what's reality. Like you can think everyone's fighting and all that. And then you go outside and everything's fine.

You've lost complete concept of what's reality. Like you can think everyone's fighting and all that. And then you go outside and everything's fine. You have to go outside. You have to unplug and go into society and see everything is fine in your world. And you can go to the grocery store and there aren't people fighting. You know I mean? It's that whole but that feeling of doom. Yes. Without even getting political though, right? All the manufactured hysteria, whether it's protests or whatever, they all think this is real, and it becomes real, but it's easy to manipulate. It's not in their little world. Our older son talked about this once. He said, our brains are not made to absorb... to know what's going on in the small town in africa and then know what's going on in wisconsin and then know what's going on here and know it and find it all out in a matter of three minutes he's like we're not supposed to know what's going on with everyone else it's too much so that is mean, we know this as, I mean, I'm 57, right? Like, we can get sucked into this. can, I don't, to be honest with you, I often don't know what's true and what's not true. Yeah. Right. And with AI. guys grew up exposed to this. And this is not the only reason. The other thing, okay, so I've identified really three things. One is screen time and or the consumption of, know, whatever the information that's coming in, whether that's through escaping and gaming or so digital. Second, COVID. I can't tell you how many parents I talk to every week. That's like, my son or daughter socially fine, academically on target until COVID. And no matter if the, and typically the parents that I talked to, their kids were freshmen in high school through senior in college when we went into lockdown in 2020.

And no matter if the, and typically the parents that I talked to, their kids were freshmen in high school through senior in college when we went into lockdown in 2020. So now those kids are 20 to 28. And I only know that because I have one, I have the book ended, you know, I had that. So those are the young people. Some of them had not socially recovered. Yeah, it's a good way to put it. That is a good way to put it. And it probably also depends on how severe the lockdown was wherever they were living, I assume. Because we're in Florida. So our kids, it was like three months and everything kind of went back to normal. But if you're in a totally. Yeah. So I guess we have a 25, 28. Our 25 year old was a freshman. So she had to write, you know, no, she was a sophomore then, but she was at a new college and had to rush. again of sorority and it was online. Her sorority meeting was online. Like that was the extent of it. And then they took online classes, but they still all went to the bars. They still all went out to rest. Like that part of their life didn't really change. But I think it's because of where we were, because then I've talked to people where their children did nothing for like years. sounds. say I would say a lot of a lot of clients that I have are and if you guys can hear that we'll have to stop in a minute. uh I would say a lot of the clients that I have were East Coast like Upper East, North, and a lot Washington, California like West Coast. Yeah, yeah. So East and West Coast. Yeah. makes sense. So that does make sense because those were the biggest lockdowns for the longest amount of time. so those scared the shit out of people. They scared the kids. Right. You have to wear a mask. You have whatever that was. That stuff was over here.

so those scared the shit out of people. They scared the kids. Right. You have to wear a mask. You have whatever that was. That stuff was over here. The masks were not a thing anymore. But that that really scared them. Messes with your psyche. And also just being isolated. Yeah, they were. I think it's more that right that they were isolated for so long. right. So that is another thing. the third thing that I think has really messed with the situation is we've all, there's always been uh maladaptive coping when you're in your twenties. We drank, we did whatever. But the weed use, the amount of weed that is being used by young people because it helps them with their social anxiety, the problem is that weed is not the same weed that we might have smoked in the 80s. It is extremely intense now. And I talk to parents over and over again whose sons or daughters, more often sons than daughters, have become psychotic, have, you know, like, It's no joke. So the stuff that they're coping with, they're choosing to cope with is, know, and I certainly talk to a lot of young people that are like, well, at least it's not alcohol or, you know, alcohol is so much worse for you or whatever. The bottom line is the marijuana that has become legalized and I'm not trying to get into it should or shouldn't, I'm just telling you based on the amount of conversations I have with parents, so many of these young people. are smoking marijuana because they're socially anxious or, you know, it just helps them chill out. And it works until it doesn't. It works until you've got a kid who you're taking to the ER because they're screaming and vomiting at the same time. Like it is no joke. And it's triggering some of these major mental health issues.

It works until you've got a kid who you're taking to the ER because they're screaming and vomiting at the same time. Like it is no joke. And it's triggering some of these major mental health issues. Yeah, no, think it's you're dead on there. It's it's incredible. And especially if you're in a state where it's legal completely, then it's become part of the culture. So there are no boundaries. There is there's no limits. The problem is, to your point, it's genetically modified. And back when we were kids and we were smoking weed, it was maybe five, 10 percent THC content as you know, whatever. It's now 20. 25%. It's very different. know, and that's, and like I say, it's genetically modified. I'm into it. I'm into growing plants and hydroponics. So I have a natural affinity to read about this stuff and you know, they're blending different strains and stuff to make it more potent. And that's what they're doing, right? It's almost a competition. And but these kids get it and you're right. And the problem is the brain is, It's still developing and there's well documented that THC impact on a developing brain is just not good. And there's not a lot of research that gets put out. It's the other side of it. It's, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. Legalize it everywhere. And I'm okay with it legalized rather than incriminating and putting people in jail. But we've kind of gone a little too far. something's gotta happen there. I don't know what the answer is, but. So these are really the three things that I see are majorly impacting in a negative way this generation. It's almost like a perfect storm. It's a cocktail. Yeah. So what do you advise parents in these situations? How to handle? I guess it depends on what's going on. I bet they have all three.

It's almost like a perfect storm. It's a cocktail. Yeah. So what do you advise parents in these situations? How to handle? I guess it depends on what's going on. I bet they have all three. Probably most of their kids have all three going on, unless they're in the COVID, maybe not as much, depending on where they live. COVID I would say is not in every situation. um What do I advise? Well, I go through a process with parents and really investigating to figure out what is the core issue that's going on here? Is it mental health? Is it the substance use? And sometimes that can be very, you know, it's hard to know. Obviously one triggers the other, right? But if we have a young person who ah Let's say they have ADHD, they're ah anxious and depressed, they're not moving ahead in their life. They attended college, but that didn't work. They came home, they've been home several years, blah, blah. And the weed smoking is something that they're doing every single day, multiple times a day. They're doing nothing, but they get up and they smoke in the morning. They have to smoke later in the day. They smoke before they go to sleep. The core issue, I mean, they have mental health issues that need to be dealt with, but the core issue is the substance use. And so it's a very, like, I don't know that I can explain to you, and I'm not trying to not answer your question directly, but when I work with parents, it's figuring out what is the dynamic that's playing out at home? How are you the parent contributing to that dynamic? Because We know the more you try and control them, the more pushback, okay, so I really concentrate on parents, the three things that you control, how you're showing up in that

Because We know the more you try and control them, the more pushback, okay, so I really concentrate on parents, the three things that you control, how you're showing up in that relationship, what you are willing to provide at this point because they are not a minor anymore, and how you're responding to their words and their actions. So when we concentrate on that and when we use what I call the four Cs, being clear, parents often they're um even between the two, the mom and dad. Sometimes they're, they have two different schools of thought on this. They have two different like approaches and whatnot, which is, I mean, that's part of marriage, right? Like we, we aren't always going to be on the same page, but there's a lack of clarity. So helping parents get very clear on what they will and won't support. Second, that they remain calm. even when they're having difficult discussions and that young person becomes explosive because that happens on a regular basis. So we work on how to stay calm even when that other person, that young person is not being calm, is not regulated. Third, coming from a space of confidence. Parents have lost confidence in parenting. They lack confidence. And so the only thing that they know to go to is control. And when you say lack confidence, what do you mean by that? Like they want to be friendly, they don't want to lose their friend and their kid, they want, or just start guessing themselves. the way that our parents parented us worked. We can't parent. um We were compliant. We were, we, we kind of knew that we had to behave or perform for love and acceptance. Okay, that doesn't work with these kids. They're not buying that shit. So because they're not buying it, parents go to try to control the situation

Okay, that doesn't work with these kids. They're not buying that shit. So because they're not buying it, parents go to try to control the situation fourth C is consistent. And this is the one that parents, all the Cs are important. But what I find most often when I get to that word is parents are like, that's the problem. We're not consistent. uh And by that, I mean two things by that. One meaning that the parents words and actions are in alignment. They follow through with what they're saying. And also consistent meaning the kid can predict the parent is always going to respond this way. Okay. So I did have a question though about how parents have lost their confidence in parenting. Do you think that is a reflection on society and just how um we've and maybe our generation too, being trying to create the childhood that we always wanted, trying to be the person that we needed, swinging the pendulum too far one way, but then also society. is not as accepting of harsh parenting, if that makes sense. Like gentle parenting came into the picture. Do you think? I like it too. I like it too. But. think, I don't think it's accurate. don't, the whole, to me, I think what people perceive as gentle parenting is permissive parenting, right? Is just like letting the kid rule the, and that's, I don't believe that's technically what the term gentle parenting means. It means conscious parenting, right? I think what has happened is we have learned a whole lot. between the time we were raised and nowadays about brain development, about secure attachment. I think all of these things our parents didn't know. And so I do think that society is for sure less tolerant of the kind of parenting that we received, but that's okay in some respects, right?

I think all of these things our parents didn't know. And so I do think that society is for sure less tolerant of the kind of parenting that we received, but that's okay in some respects, right? Because the spanking with the brush or the spoon or whatever. Like this was not, and people will argue all day long. see comments on my videos all the time. I was spanked and I turned out okay. Okay, well, you know, people, and I think our parents didn't know better. They didn't, they just did what was handed down to them and whatever. Now we know differently. And there is no shortage of evidence, obviously, that physically harming your child is traumatic. Yeah. So do they lose confidence in the process of seeing their child's issues come to light? Does it make them feel like they failed and that's where they lose their confidence? part of it. They second guess themself. um They because mental health and there's less of a stigma around that and young people are privileged to a lot, a lot of information coming in. I think they're also gravitating at times. I'm not saying they're lying at all. I'm just saying I think they gravitate at times to using. psychological terms and I, you I can't do this because of that. And parents have, because they don't know what else to do, they lose confidence. They start trying to control the situation that backfires. They don't know what else to do. And that just continues the cycle of I'm failing. I don't know what to do. I, this feeling of lack, this kid's going to be home forever. You know, like, I did not sign up for having a 28 year old living in my basement. Like what is, so we've got young people who are feeling hopeless, who are dealing with mental health issues, maybe as a result of stuff they've seen on social media.

Like what is, so we've got young people who are feeling hopeless, who are dealing with mental health issues, maybe as a result of stuff they've seen on social media. know, like just, we got the perfect storm of young people. We got the perfect storm of parents who we can't parent the way we were parented because it doesn't work, but we don't know what to do. Right. it's all kind of coming together. However, like I said, I think that we can course adjust. can, we can, we need to take a little bit of the way we were parented and add in validation, add in empathy. And you can do this. You could like, it's it's a combination of things. Yeah, that's perfect recipe because you break the generational trauma. So you take the trauma out of our how we were raised, because all of us have some form of it. It's really just but then keep retain the boundaries, retain the limits, latch on to the good, try to correct the bad, break that cycle. there's the way you build confidence in your child is by expecting things from them because you're telling them I believe in you enough that I know you can do this. It's gonna be hard, but I feel like sometimes the expectations have been removed from kids. And in a way you're saying, I don't believe in you enough that you can do this. So I'm gonna do it for you. Right, and the more the parent does it for them, the less purpose, the less reason this kid has to do it. So I have a number of tattoos, but I have a tattoo on my arm here, and I'm sure you can't read it, but it says holding space. So this is what, when I say holding space, a parent needs to hold space at times. To go back to my own story, when my mom, um emotionally supported me and yes, did some things for me, but not everything.

To go back to my own story, when my mom, um emotionally supported me and yes, did some things for me, but not everything. She could have come in and taken over for me when I was 18 and had a baby. She could have come in and done way too much. She did enough. She believed in me at a time when sometimes I didn't believe in myself. There were definitely moments in my early parenthood that I'm like, I mean, I never would have changed the decision I made, but I didn't believe in myself. And she held space for me to be able to find that belief in myself and to gain enough in small steps to be able to have the confidence in myself. That is what parents need to do. They need to hold space. They need to be emotionally strong so that they're young person, so that they're not doing too much for. And here's the other thing that I think is really important here. There are two things that stops our generation. from being. more confident and holding healthy boundaries. One is a fear of their child's self-harm, which we know that, and I never joke, it's not a joke, the level of mental health and or suicide situation with young people today. So, of self-harm and parents not being able to tolerate their kids' big feelings. Mmm. allowed to have anger. We weren't allowed to have anxiety. I was not allowed to be an anxious, it was beaten out of me, right? It was, and so now when these kids or these 20 somethings have this anxiety and have depression and stuff, parents just like, it's like a deer in the head, like, I don't know. I don't know what to do. Like, I have no idea how to. deal with this rather than constructively supporting their kids through anxiety, depression, mental health challenges. this falls into your confidence bucket. What'd you say? Yeah, yes, do.

deal with this rather than constructively supporting their kids through anxiety, depression, mental health challenges. this falls into your confidence bucket. What'd you say? Yeah, yes, do. Yes, for these two reasons, this self-harm and this not being able to tolerate our kids' big feelings, contributes, yeah. your holding space concept could also um apply to hold space for their big feelings, not just for them to do things, some things. But because I know what you're talking about. We have a knee jerk. I've had to learn. I'll raise my hand. I've had to learn that. Because if our kids have all had anxiety, but our youngest. because of the generation. He's the youngest Gen Z. He has no problem voicing it. That's beautiful, right? They talk about having social anxiety. But then he'll have, he's overstimulated, he'll lose his temper. He might be like, and then he'll react to that because we, and then he reacts, then he reacts and he reacts. So then it's all fun. But I'm learning. You are. are. Because I feel like I've come a long way. You've come such a long way. fascinated with what you're saying. But you're so dead on with our generation because we weren't allowed to have big feelings. It causes it triggers anxiety in us because we're like, you're not supposed to do that. You're supposed to shush, shush, it down, put it somewhere, compartmentalize it. And then we just keep going forward and everything will be fine. Everything's going to be fine. But our children, because of how we raise them, are like, no, you've created this person that feels they can voice this. Now you have to deal with me voicing this. Mm-hmm, yeah.

But our children, because of how we raise them, are like, no, you've created this person that feels they can voice this. Now you have to deal with me voicing this. Mm-hmm, yeah. Yes, so these are the things that I, you know, these are the things that, again, when parents work on these four Cs, when they stick with the three things that they control instead of trying to control the behavior of this 20-something, things change, things move. They don't move as fast as the parent wants them to, but when young people have parents that are confident. that can stay calm, even when they're explosive, that are consistent, they can predict, can't, if they go to mom and mom says one thing, then they go to dad kind of thing. the other thing that I do with parents is really get them to shift, like we have to stop parenting over our kids. We have to parent with them. Like I'm the parent, you're the child, that has to go away when you have a... 20 something that's living at home, right? How can I work with you to solve this problem? We've got a problem in our home. There's a problem in the dynamics. How can we work together? And it takes some time for a young person to actually believe their parents gonna change their approach and they actually want the kids input to start solving the problem. takes, don't trust the parent that there's not some Now that makes such perfect sense. it's amazing because again, I've grown into that. They would call her and express frustration with myself. So I've had to kind of grow up, you know, very begrudgingly. But I think now I've kind of gotten, I will get the call now. I'll get less complaints type of things. It's fascinating that I think you're spot on. It's a growth. I love that how you talked about parenting with instead of over.

I'll get less complaints type of things. It's fascinating that I think you're spot on. It's a growth. I love that how you talked about parenting with instead of over. when they hit that, when they're adult, like that 20s and that 20s timeframe. Cause 18, 19 in my mind is just like childhood 2.0. You're still have a pretty strong feet in childhood. This generation, I mean, you were having a baby and we were out on our own doing whatever, but this generation, they're still, they've been raised, they're kind of still those, that teenager. It's really that 20, when they enter the 20s. Well, they're still on the parental dole. A lot of them. But till they get out of college, is there a is there a is there an end game? what is there a point? say a point that you advise your clients. OK, but if it doesn't change by this amount of time, you need to take this drastic measure or is it just. Well, okay, so let me tell you that the typical parent that comes to me, I'm very much generalizing here, but these are the main threads. um I have a son who is 26 years of age, tried college, didn't go well, maybe he graduated, but bottom line, he's been home ever since, never got a job in his field. He's been, his days and nights are mixed up. He's not only hiding from the world, he's hiding from the family, right? and on top of that, parents will say, we won't kick him out of the house. That's what I'm wondering. Yeah. We absolutely that I will not make my child homeless and they are not working. have no income. Um, but I'm frustrated as hell. I don't want to be financially responsible for my 26 year old son in this, in this example. So you, so you have to look, okay. All right. And listen, as someone who was 18 and asked to leave home, I, that is not my go-to.

So you, so you have to look, okay. All right. And listen, as someone who was 18 and asked to leave home, I, that is not my go-to. It is not. I don't think that's a good go-to. However, there's absolutely no movement from this, if over time we can't move them into collaborating and taking small steps and the parents continuing taking steps back financially, ah physically, whatever, like the whole idea is parents, How do we get you to start taking steps back so this kid can step into his life? If none of this, if like, this is not happening. I mean, I've worked with families where 26 has turned into 32. I will tell you this though, there is, I am convinced that there is hope for every parent because I worked with a mom who is 78 and her 45 year old drug addicted son was living at home and he had been home for seven years. He had been out on his own, but then through a series of events, he came back home. He had been home seven years. We worked together and that man, I was gonna say young man, but 45, that man now is no longer doing drugs in his bedroom. He has a job, he is contributing. He still lives at home, but he's working with his mom. And she recently wrote to me and said, I can't imagine. not having worked with you. And this has nothing, this is not me trying to pump myself. This has everything to do with this mother getting to a place. And I tell this to parents, you have to be done with this situation. And I don't mean done because you want to control them, but done because you're, you have set some personal boundaries for yourself. You're no longer willing to contribute to the self-destruction that your kid is on. the self-destructive path that they're on.

You're no longer willing to contribute to the self-destruction that your kid is on. the self-destructive path that they're on. It must be such a challenging um moment for a parent to prioritize themselves and their life at that point, because that's what they're having to do. They're basically saying, I can't give all of my life anymore over to this situation. I have to take some life back for myself. You think that's what's happening? Or do you think they're just saying, I need you to grow up and I want you. It's OK. Because they have to prioritize themselves too in order to really do this authentically. yourself to be able to prioritize the child who's no longer a child that needs to become an adult. At some point, because we naturally as parents, we'll give everything to them. Like our last breath we'll give to them. So at some point we have to pull some of that back for ourselves or else we will just continue enabling. Yeah, so let me, this is something I use with parents. The last page of my book that I self-published in 2021 is a quote that. second, what's the title of your book? And it's available on Amazon, right? Let's get a plug in real quick, because people, they're listening, think you may want to pop out and... yeah. So, okay, so 2021, I published a memoir and it's the story of beliefs that I took on in childhood and how they were impacting my parenting and my marriage. It's also the story of the walk I took with my son through his addiction to alcohol. So it's called Becoming Me While Raising You, A Mother's Journey to Herself. And I just, think the title is amazing. I don't know where it came from, but you know, it came to me.

So it's called Becoming Me While Raising You, A Mother's Journey to Herself. And I just, think the title is amazing. I don't know where it came from, but you know, it came to me. But one of the last page of the book is a quote that was downloaded to me on a random Saturday when I was like vacuuming. Like this came to me and I literally like wrote it down on a piece of paper the second it came to me. Because I think it's really profound and I think it will help parents really think about this year. So it's our children come through us, not for us, except for the lessons they reflect to us during their journey in an effort to grow us up along the way. Mm. Wow. That's amazing. So I will ask parents, what is it that you are meant to be learning as a result of this situation that you're in with your son or daughter? Because you are meant to learn more than you don't have any control, because that's the first thing that they will say, right? What I'm learning is I don't have any control. I get that, but you're learning more than that. What are you learning? um And I just, really think that it's important for parents to be able to have, and don't ask me how exactly you do this. I've learned to do it, but I think every parent has their own journey, but to be able to take an emotional step back from who their son or daughter is, that being a reflection of who they are. First of all, they're not a reflection. second their journey. isn't necessarily what you thought for them. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I had expectations I didn't even realize I had for my kids. And I'm the one that would say, I have no expectations. I just really want them to find their place in life and blah, blah. You do as a parent have expectations.

And I'm the one that would say, I have no expectations. I just really want them to find their place in life and blah, blah. You do as a parent have expectations. So learning how to take a step back from those expectations. We are blessed to be guides. on their journey, but we are not to be running our agenda for them, trying to run it through them. Yes, that is so, so accurate. And it really brings to light how much parenting can be a continuous moment of growth for the parent if they allow it to be. you can continue to grow like you said, grow through the rest of your life by parenting them that way, by the lessons that they're teaching you. you will grow from and growth is uncomfortable right typically growth is uncomfortable I say to parents, I'm like, do you know why it's so difficult for you to take a step back or to watch them suffer and struggle? It's because you're having to grow as well. That's the thing. Their growth is also your growth. So that is why it is so difficult. and challenging and painful and heart wrenching at times for parents. I mean, the moment that I told my son, I'm not gonna bail you out of jail was one of the most difficult like moments in my parenting life. But I needed to do that so that he could have the opportunity. I didn't know for sure what would happen, right? I had no idea, no idea whether or not he would. become sober. Whatever, there's so many possibilities of what could happen. But I also made the decision like, I have to think for myself, I can't contribute to this self-destructive behavior. It was such a leap of faith. That's why I said that had to have been one of such a monumentally impossible. Like you said, you didn't have the means at the time even to bail him out.

It was such a leap of faith. That's why I said that had to have been one of such a monumentally impossible. Like you said, you didn't have the means at the time even to bail him out. But even so, I mean, if you had, that would have made the decision even 10 times harder. But what you said about how they are not a reflection of us personally and our pre disposed idea of how their life should go, we have to we have to pull that back in. It's actually kind of narcissistic if you think about it. It's very narcissistic. You have to pull in your own narcissism. I'm not talking about narcissistic parents. That's whole different thing. But that subtle narcissism that I think probably every parent has, it's just natural. Where you displace something of yourself, your expectations, your identity. Your dad had it with you. You were breaking the illusion of the family. He had placed his identity onto you and your behavior. um That's growth. That's growth as a person. There's so many amazingly beautiful things that can come out of what you do, not just for the children, but for the parents as well. Yeah, it really, and I guess to kind of, again, bring, there is so much work. There are so many families that are struggling with this, and often they feel like they're the only family struggling with this because we all have the highlight reel on Facebook, and we all, just like our kids are, we're subject to thinking that Everybody else's kids are checking the boxes, doing the thing, whatever, and parents feel extremely alone in the situation if they have a 20-something or a 30-something who has not launched, is struggling, and they do take it as a failure. You know, I'm a failure as a parent because I haven't been able to do this.

launched, is struggling, and they do take it as a failure. You know, I'm a failure as a parent because I haven't been able to do this. Yeah, but it's getting out of their own way. Like you talked, we talked about before. Don't wallow in that. Don't let that stall you. That doesn't help you, but it especially doesn't help your child. um Do you think that you see more young male clients because young girls are naturally just more social? So we'll put themselves, they search out, they need that girlhood maybe more. Like, why do you think you're not seeing as many girls? They don't view porn. I mean they do but on a much smaller... don't, they don't, they really don't watch porn, I mean, typically. They, while they get sucked into social media, I think that they're more prone to comparison on social media. But I think with young men, especially young men who game, there's, they, they earn things through gaming, right? They win, they, they. They achieve through gaming. They escape and achieve through gaming. So it makes the real world and engaging in it less and less attractive. Did they get badges? And they're not getting their dopamine hit in the real world like they are gaming. Right, it's a lot of work. Like you can get rejected. You can get rejected in the job. You can get rejected from a girl. Like why would I do that? Yeah. in the real world. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. What can parents do? Because I know you talked about what you saw when you first attempted to help clients who had teenagers, but they were more inclined to really just take action when there was a crisis situation. What can parents do preventatively um when their children are, let's say, even 12, 13, 14?

crisis situation. What can parents do preventatively um when their children are, let's say, even 12, 13, 14? Before the crisis, how can parents really engage to try to stop this be proactive? em I would say some of the old school things are super important. That is have family dinner. Mm. create family memories together, limit the phone, limit that that phone should never be in the bedroom overnight. Wait as long as you can to give the phone. I mean, that car, what is the horses out of the barn or whatever, you know, that is the case. ah Even if they've had the phone in their bedroom to this point, I would turn that around. I wish I would have done that for my now 28 year old. um But I did do that for my youngest two. We all learn as we go. But if this is important, if I were talking to parents of middle schoolers, high schoolers, the quality of your relationship with your kids is so important because if you have a shitty relationship, you also have zero influence on them. And yes, this is a time in their life when their peers become increasingly more important. However, they still care. If you're in a mutually respectful relationship with your 13, 16 year old, they're still going to care what you think. That's not gonna lead them away from every bad choice in the world. but you have more ability to influence that if you have a good relationship with them. And that is you have conversations outside of, you get your schoolwork done? Did you hand in that application? you, you know, like parents, they have an agenda because they wanna make sure the kid's ticking all the boxes and stuff like that. And they kind of forget to continue to develop the relationship with their kids. So it's so important.

And they kind of forget to continue to develop the relationship with their kids. So it's so important. And sometimes when I'm working with parents of 20 somethings, we can't set healthy boundaries until they've reestablished some connection with this kid. Yes, it's connection. And the other point I 100 % agree on is if they don't care what you think, then you really don't have an influence and establishing and that comes from respect. you can't not put that effort and time in with your kid during those young years and then decide at 15 to step in and lay down the law and expect that they're going to fall in line because they don't care what you think. because you haven't built that respect, that relationship. It's when they care what you think. Like you said, it's not going to stop every decision, but your voice is there and they do care about disappointing you and that can help guide them in when they encounter potentially dangerous or risky situations. When they to start making decisions. When they have to start making decisions. I've always told people, it starts in, you pick them up from preschool and you start saying, who did you sit by when you had snack? Oh, what art? and then elementary school and then middle use, the questions become more serious. But it's that communication building from little and then when they're in high middle school, high school and you're talking about sex, drugs, drinking, driving, all of that stuff, that's natural that you're having that conversation because we're having those conversations when they were three. But I you're raising a good point. It's conversations or conversational and not just what do we have to do? What's your homework? and our lectures, lecturing, right?

But I you're raising a good point. It's conversations or conversational and not just what do we have to do? What's your homework? and our lectures, lecturing, right? So that's why I'm saying, you know, we can, and having kids and I had a kid in band, which in Texas is crazy with the schedule, right? So we've also become this society that the kids are involved in so many things and it is intense. The practice schedules and stuff like that. First of all, that alone is crazy. And I wish over COVID. That is one thing that we all would have figured out and been like, okay, we all need to like get back to a reasonable schedule. okay, that's, I think a family prioritizing as many, maybe it's not every night of the week, but several nights a week. And I don't care if it's a gourmet meal or if it's peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. The family is your foundation. And if you have a family that is everybody eats in their room or they don't, You know, there just is no cohesive time spent together or relationships developed. Kids are going out into school and out into community without a foundation of what it means to be a part, you know, a part of a community that everybody contributes, everybody works together. And I think that is really a challenge. And that's... chores, pick up the garbage. all of that. it's uh also like I'll tell my, at times I've told my kids, know, remember who you are, where you come from. We all have each other's backs. We got you. And it's that feeling of, like you said, your family is your first community in a lot of ways. So if you know when you leave the house, these other people have got your back. You all are bound together. But if you don't have, you matter. 100%. Yes. for who you are. um I will love and accept you where you're at.

You all are bound together. But if you don't have, you matter. 100%. Yes. for who you are. um I will love and accept you where you're at. That doesn't mean I always like your actions or your behavior so that we don't have to like work on some things. But if kids, I think a lot of us grew up feeling not seen or heard. And I think it's extremely important that kids feel seen and heard for who they are and not who we want or need them to be. Now, as far as going back to when you wrote the book in 2021, was that when you first started getting a following on social media? How did that all come about? I would say that because I, it was funny because I was on Facebook for a long, time and trying to reach parents that way. I did some speaking in our public school system. You know, I was trying to reach because I knew that this was a problem, but again, I was trying to reach parents of teenagers because I didn't want them to experience what I experienced. But in sharing my story, there was a point at which somebody, friend of mine was like, Hey, you're so good on video, Kim. why don't you go on TikTok? And I wish I had done TikTok a year before, but I thought it was like this thing where people danced and you know, like, anyway, it was September of 2021 when the book had just come out and I decided to start on TikTok. And then I was like, if I'm making these for TikTok, I might as well just throw them on Instagram. So bottom line, I have diligently. been working on a social media presence on those two platforms since September of 2021. What kept coming back to me after I started sharing my story were these parents of 18 and older.

been working on a social media presence on those two platforms since September of 2021. What kept coming back to me after I started sharing my story were these parents of 18 and older. And so since that time, so I have kind of always followed like, I've followed what the people that are requesting to work with me are, you know what I'm saying? yeah. this point, ah we are, I look at, what's matter? Sorry. Come here. Okay, at this point, sorry. This is mayhem, yes, this is. Hi Mayhem. Oh my gosh. Precious. How old is Mayhem? Mayhem is 11 and mischief is 14. Mischief is the classic black one and she's being quiet at the moment. see. so at this point, here's what I'm coaching. I didn't ask for this, but this is what is continuing to come my way. Parents of 18 and older, sometimes, like I told you, that woman that I worked with, her son was 45 years. I don't want to, that is not where I wanna go, but I have done that. So I would say the bulk of my parents, have someone 20 to 30 years of age, they have a combination of mental health, substance use, and I don't like to call it failure to launch, I call it Lost in Place, which is the name of the book that's coming out in November. So, because I think if you're lost, you can be found. So Lost in Place. What has gotten more complex is I'm getting a lot of parents coming to me that have young people on the spectrum, ADHD. I'm now seeing a lot of borderline personality disorder. And let me just be really clear. I am not an expert on any, I have experienced parenting an adult child now who has had. some pretty significant mental health issues over the years and addiction issues. I am not an expert in mental health issues at all. And I'm very clear with parents about this upfront.

some pretty significant mental health issues over the years and addiction issues. I am not an expert in mental health issues at all. And I'm very clear with parents about this upfront. I am clear and I do feel like I have an expertise in helping parents assess a situation and create a plan that makes sense for their family in order to start Typically it's parents needing to step back in different areas to see if their young person is capable of stepping in. you give them concrete hope. give them not just hope, because that can just be like, ah, you give them hope, but you give them tools to obtain that. So it's real. I was going to ask you about neurodivergent young adult ah children. Do the rules change at all? Does anything adjust, or is it pretty much still the same? uh I do a lot of reading and I try to keep very up to date on a lot of different things. I think the way that you, the way the parent might have to adapt to the situation would change. But the basic tenets of what I work with parents on, the four C's, that doesn't change no matter what the dynamic, the mental health, the substance use. And the other thing that doesn't change are the three things the parent can control. So the basic, no matter what the mental health and or substance use situation might be, the basic things that I work with parents on are the same. They may have to be adapted differently to a neurodivergent person. Basically, your protocol that you have can be a plot should be applied, but it may be more nuanced in that situation. And just to repeat the seas again, ah it's calm. I know is how does it go? Clarity. parents being clear on what they will and won't support ah come even when that young person is exploding or becoming dysregulated, uh confident, and consistent.

I know is how does it go? Clarity. parents being clear on what they will and won't support ah come even when that young person is exploding or becoming dysregulated, uh confident, and consistent. So those are the four Cs. Now, the three things they control are how they're showing up in the relationship. what they are willing to provide at this point now that their son or daughter is not a minor. And I mean that emotionally, physically, financially, these are the things I mean. And then how they're responding to their son or daughter's words and actions. So, and when we concentrate on those things and use the four C's, things can change in a positive direction. I have seen it. I, um I guess, you know, again, in the most extreme case, was with this very older woman who, you know. are you guys calling or considering neurodivergent? On the spectrum, em is ADHD considered neurodivergent? I think some people, I don't know officially, like I don't want to officially say yes or no, but I think there are some people that do include ADHD in that. Yeah. I have a question for you. Do you just work with the parents or are you working with the kids, children? good question. I mean, my marketing and my main target is parents. In the process of working with parents, I've been very privileged to talk to their young people at times. They want to come in and they want to share their perspective on mom and dad's parenting. And when I get that opportunity, I will also do some coaching with them on how to have more productive conversations with mom and dad, or how they can approach mom and dad that mom and dad might be more willing to listen, that kind of thing. But I don't do coaching directly with young people on like life coaching or career coaching or whatever.

But I don't do coaching directly with young people on like life coaching or career coaching or whatever. If they're interested, and actually I find often that when parents admit or let me see, when parents... When parents decide to work on their parenting and they come into coaching and they share that with their young person, that young person knows that there's dysfunction, that there's, you know, things at the house are not going well. And once they understand that I'm not there to like make their parent. put in all these like heavy boundaries and stuff, but that really my interest in working with the family is to help them have healthier, mutually respectful relationships and to build an environment. Cause I don't think these young people want to be stuck at home. I don't think they do. I think they're very ashamed. think, I think they're. feeling like failures themselves. And so when we can shift the environment of the parents and this kid, they can take small steps and continue to a place where they actually leave home. Yeah, I was going to say I bet there's a lot of shame surrounding their existence and their self-esteem is probably tanked. Talk about confidence, there's lack of confidence. you're also, but again, that's not your responsibility that really, but that little window you might get into their world. And it sounds like you also take that into consideration as you're working with their parents too. mean, I absolutely. And what's interesting is that, of course, you can get wonderful perspective from the parents. But when I also get to talk to the young person, it's super interesting to me to hear their perspective as well, right? And I always think I'm kind of open-minded, even if I just talk to the parents.

But when I also get to talk to the young person, it's super interesting to me to hear their perspective as well, right? And I always think I'm kind of open-minded, even if I just talk to the parents. you know, trying to think like, okay, what could be going on for this kid as well? What's their experience? What's their perception? But then when I actually do talk to that young person and they trust me enough to be honest about what their perspective is, I get a very, I don't want say a very different picture, but like it opens my eyes to like the dynamics. Yeah. get the full picture. Yeah. What I think is interesting is you're coaching. You're not counseling. You're not a therapist. You're coaching. So it's kind of like, you know, any I coach my kids sports, you know, and you kind of just you're trying to cobble it together and move it forward. And so, you know, I got to pay attention here because this is good. But wait, now I got to come over here. So it's kind of like you're coaching. She's guiding them. You're guiding them. You're facilitating your coachings all about helping people progress, right? Yeah. Yeah. Here's where we want to go. How do we develop a plan that gets us there? And I will tell you that we may come, we may have a very good plan and start to implement that plan. And along the way, what we find is that the young person, it's not that they, it's There might be a bigger issue, say substance use issue, that needs to be addressed. It's not just about getting a job. So as we roll out the plan, parents understand like, listen, if this, you know, this kid just literally cannot get out of bed in the morning, like there's a bigger issue here than just he's lazy and lacks confidence and can't get a job. So it's an evolving thing.

just he's lazy and lacks confidence and can't get a job. So it's an evolving thing. was going to ask you, so you said Me While Raising You, that that book was semi-autobiographical for you, right? What's lost in place then? How would you describe what that book Lost in Place, how to motivate, support and launch an adult child is going to be a combination of the work that I've kind of shared here of really a how-to manual for all of these parents who are struggling with a person who is lost and isolating, they could be at home, maybe not at home, but the bottom line is they're not moving forward towards independent adult life. What do you do in that situation? And so yes, there's gonna be a chapter on shame and lack of confidence and parents' shame, quite frankly. There's gonna be this one thing that we haven't really talked about yet, or we maybe did just briefly, but consequences. What does that look like? How do you consequence a 25-year-old who you know, isn't, it won't clean their bedroom. Like all of these things. It's like a different ball game when you're not, you know, talking about a 10 year old. We're talking about an adult who wants to be seen as an adult. They want the benefits of being an adult without all the responsibility. Yes, yes, that's got to be so tough. mean, the cons are the consequences tailored like is that is that where you really get tailored for each family or is there a general broad? Well, no, I'm not doing your laundry anymore. Not going to bring you food anymore. Not going to give you money anymore. Right. Those are consequences. it get down to where I'm kicking you out of the house, though? Is that the final consequence?

Not going to bring you food anymore. Not going to give you money anymore. Right. Those are consequences. it get down to where I'm kicking you out of the house, though? Is that the final consequence? Well, ultimately, you're staying in this I'm the parent, you're the child type of relationship, that wouldn't be the ultimate consequence, right? But I told you that parents come to me and say, we absolutely won't do that, which is why the bulk of my work is shifting to a place where you're partnering with your kids rather than trying to parent over them because parenting over them does not work and it causes a lot of disconnection and whatnot. Part of the work that I do is based on the work of a clinical psychologist by the name of Xavier Amador, who wrote two books, one of which is called Becoming Fluent in LEAP. LEAP, L-E-A-P, stands for listen, empathize, agree, and partner. So I've kind of adapted that to parenting emerging adults. He came up with that because he had a schizophrenic brother who wouldn't take his medication and would repeatedly end up in the hospital. So it's a whole, I'm teaching parents how to approach the situation in a way that invites partnership and collaboration to work on the problem. And when it comes to consequences, to talk through what the consequences are and agree on the consequences with that young person, instead of having to always be the one that figures out what's the consequence. What's the consequence? So it's talking ahead of time, like, okay, and if you don't clean your room, then what should happen? What happens? And that is all agreed upon. I work with families a lot with something called a family living agreement. So, I mean, you could call it a contract, but the family living agreement,

What happens? And that is all agreed upon. I work with families a lot with something called a family living agreement. So, I mean, you could call it a contract, but the family living agreement, is something that everyone works together on and everyone signs. Because again, we've got a lot of parents who are like, you told me you were gonna do this and you know, I never agreed to that. I never agreed to that timeline. So this back and forth all the time and constant power struggles. Some parents are like, I don't wanna go through this formal creating this thing, but I'm like, listen, it's going to avoid a lot if... You've all like sat down, created an agreement about what it looks like to live together as adults and everyone has signed it. That is your go-to, right? Well, you're recommending it because you're at that point. It's not like we're just doing this. Yeah. conversations hasn't worked. Yeah, it almost is like especially the people that say I will not kick them out It's almost like you're guiding and coaching and teaching them how to live together almost as roommates that respect each other and hold responsibility But in the process, the hope is the adult will launch the young adult will launch So, okay, you're not gonna kick them out. So we're gonna create we're gonna learn how to create an environment that's mutually acceptable to both parties And then hopefully through that growth and healing and balance and going from dysfunction to function, the adult young adult will be like, OK, I'm ready to leave. The adult becomes ready to leave is the hope. Right. So just kind of organically, they kind of do leave the house as opposed to getting kicked out. That's the hope, you know, and if they leave on their own, that self-esteem building.

Right. So just kind of organically, they kind of do leave the house as opposed to getting kicked out. That's the hope, you know, and if they leave on their own, that self-esteem building. So you really are. the parents want, right? That's really what we want as parents. And so I think we're in a time period where for many families, this is taking longer than they want. They're not willing to completely, I mean, parents, there's a whole lot of, a whole other story of parents that are afraid of being cut off by their kids. But the parents that I generally talk to, they know their kid's not functioning well enough to be on their own, and they're not willing to just put them out. So we have to get to an environment and a place in small incremental steps to where that kid feels competent in going out into the world. I mean, you're not just your clients or the parents mainly, but the result also are you're helping the children. You're helping their children because you are. honestly, I think I have a lot of followers that are young people that appreciate what I'm trying to do. And I've had many messages. I had a woman, young woman, 22, who just reached out to me last week and she said, I'm bipolar. And I have shared my, your videos with my parents on a regular basis. I really want them to come into your parent support group. because I really appreciate what you're trying to do. So young people are also, I think, seeing that, again, I want to create a mutually respectful relationship between young people and their parents. And I think it can be done. Yeah, I mean, especially with your help. what you're I know what that just warms my heart because you know that those kids are also feeling hopeless, just like their parents are.

Yeah, I mean, especially with your help. what you're I know what that just warms my heart because you know that those kids are also feeling hopeless, just like their parents are. And so just as you're giving that lifeline to parents when they come across your videos, just for them to be able to send your video to their parent is a way of opening some form of communication. You've given them yet another tool. to communicate with each other. So it's vital what you're doing. It's such good work. And it's so interesting, the perfect storm that has unfortunately led to this need. But it's just so awesome that you're providing it because it's very unique and very nuanced, but you've seemed to just gotten such a handle on what's needed. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I love what I do. can be extremely, you know, listening to parents, issues. regularly, I will get done, you know, and I talk to parents all day long. And I, at the end of the day, I'll be like, first of all, it makes me grateful for not that I have a perfect situation with my kids, but it makes me grateful. But it's also... sometimes a little bit, I don't want to say unnerving, but that's what's the word that's coming to my mind. The gravity of the problem, the enormity of this problem, which is why I know the book will help. Like I can only work with so many people, right? And so, By having the videos, having, you know, I've got other things that I offer on my website, by getting this book out the end of this year, I will be able to help, I hope, those people who decide that they wanna invest in a book and whatever. That's my goal is to be able to help as many people as I can because I don't think this problem is gonna go away.

people who decide that they wanna invest in a book and whatever. That's my goal is to be able to help as many people as I can because I don't think this problem is gonna go away. Yeah, I don't think I am in fear that it's going to actually get worse. Have you? think the book's amazing because you basically are taking all this knowledge that you're sharing as much as you can uh on social media, but you've put it in a form where it can reach the masses. Have you ever thought about doing a speaking tour? Um, I, that's probably the one thing that I love being on video. I love doing interviews. I've done media like immediate, like I'm on the news on a regular basis contributing that way. Um, I really dislike speaking in public, but I have a feeling that if I, you know, if I truly want to If I truly want to see this book get to a larger audience, that may be something that I suck up and do at some point. Like, would really, like part of me knows that I would love to do a TEDx talk, but that scares the shit out of me. That's right. That's right. And I like people, people will say to me, well, Kim, you're, you know, you're asking us to grow like. And a book tour could be a way of doing it too where you're not up necessary but people are coming and meeting you and you're signing books and Get some more access to you and that way and that can spread the word more, too I'm sorry. You were I think you could do it Ted talks. I think people would listen and You are an authoritative voice in this space think about it, right you started um Babysitting at a young age and then you were well in your last trimester were taking care of an infant child for another couple. Then you had your own kid and then you had, I think, four more, right? And you've been at this a while.

in your last trimester were taking care of an infant child for another couple. Then you had your own kid and then you had, I think, four more, right? And you've been at this a while. And you've been talking to different parents through various issues that span a wide array of issues. I'd love to see on Ted Talks. I'll die. will listen. wired up in the big TV in the living room will watch it. I think you should do it. It'd be cool. My biggest challenge, I think, is that the idea of memorizing like 10 or 12 minutes of... I mean, I know this like the back of my... I live it, I have lived it, I've taken my life experience and transferred it into a business and it helps other... And, you know, I mean, I wouldn't do anything differently. I love it. The idea of though capturing that in 10 or 12 minutes and memorizing it and delivering it. technical solution. I'm interrupting you, sorry. Go get one of those cheap teleprompters on Amazon. I think they do. and very comfortable with a teleprompter. Like I had the ability to have a teleprompter, but that's not my, I don't think that they let you have a teleprompter to do. did. I thought they had it in the background, but... do that like I can do that in a heartbeat. Like I am, I would feel very comfortable like doing that, but okay. you're to get a bunch of he's technical. So I'm to get a bunch of a bunch of him from I want to see someone I've talked to on Ted Talks. So now that we know each other, no pressure. I could have a TED Talk in me and someday I might have the courage to actually do that. I think that you are pioneering this. Unfortunately, this um phenomenon, this pandemic, I think you called it, or epidemic, you called it an epidemic, epidemic, not a pandemic, I have COVID on the brain.

Unfortunately, this um phenomenon, this pandemic, I think you called it, or epidemic, you called it an epidemic, epidemic, not a pandemic, I have COVID on the brain. um I think you're pioneering a way to help people through this epidemic. And so I definitely foresee this uh being um transferred. It's not the right word, but. um What's the word you always use about we need to scale it? I could see this being scaled on a much larger scale for sure. It's a need. I think this is going to become an even larger need. And um I can see this going way larger than what um you could even imagine. So you're going to need to start practicing. I'm sorry, talking in front of people. You know what? I can also see this being really good. um going to schools, like how schools will have like information, like social media information for parents to go to like at six o'clock at the school at night and some social media expert says, don't let your kids be on their phones or whatever. I can see schools hosting you to talk to parents about some of this stuff maybe as a proactive approach. we will see. I will tell you though that I have, as I am, I would say that I'm fairly introverted and the ability to do a three minute video, which takes me longer than three minutes, clearly, to be able to put out a three minute video a couple of times a week and touch the number of parents all over the world that I've been able to touch. is extremely gratifying. Like, cause I can be in my 26, 100 square foot town home in Texas on a very quiet street and say, you know, and do something that is, that has profound and people have let me know like this has really made a difference in our family and you know, in my parenting.

like this has really made a difference in our family and you know, in my parenting. So it's extremely gratifying to know that and it keeps me in my comfort zone. I have one little nugget of advice, because I don't like to publicly speak either, but sometimes I have to give presentations and I have to talk about my world in a technical sense. And I always remember after I get past the anxiety and get myself prepared is I actually do know more about what I'm going to talk about than anyone else in the room. And you're in that space in this space. know, if that helps get you over the hump. It's true. It helps kind of let you get in there with little confidence. it helps hearing that. feel like the more parents I talk to and the more patterns I see, the more parents I talk to and the more in common and the common threads, because I'm always looking for like, what are the commonalities here? What's working? What's not working? What are, you know, like, I'm really... invested in that and the more, the longer I do this, the more I feel like I'm an, like I feel like I can talk about this as authority. I don't think there's, I don't think there is something that I'm missing. I don't think there's, I'm regularly reading and sitting in on seminars because I want to make sure there's nothing I'm missing. that could be helping parents, because I care. I want that to take place. Yeah, that makes sense. Before I ask my last question, do you have any other questions? I'm going let the dog stop for a second. your new book that's coming out, you say it can be used as kind of a guide, right? On your first book, could it be a guide as well to recognize the alcoholism in your child and then the steps that... parents can take to get them into treatment?

On your first book, could it be a guide as well to recognize the alcoholism in your child and then the steps that... parents can take to get them into treatment? Or was it more first person, this is how I felt with it, but guess either way it can be a guide. No, yeah, okay. so I think it can be a guide. One of the things we didn't talk about with regard to the book is that there are four questions I asked myself about the beliefs I took on in childhood that were impacting my parenting and my marriage. And those four questions, um I think it can be pivotal, pivotal, pivotal, pivotal to parents understanding themselves because our self beliefs very much affect the way we parent. And a lot of times we are not consciously understanding. So these questions are to bring someone to a place of better understanding their self beliefs. And then how to shift some of those beliefs to a more empowering wording and practice those beliefs. For example, I took on a belief in childhood that what I had to say didn't matter. It was playing out in my marriage and in my parenting. So, and I think this is kind of a common belief, especially for women, I'll just say. So I lost my voice. And so I asked, so when I asked the first question to myself, what do I believe about myself? At a core, I believe that what I have to say doesn't matter. The second question, when is the first time I felt that way or when is the first time I had that experience? And then in the book, I go into a situation that happened between myself and my dad when I was six years old. And I won't go into that here, but that is the first time that I felt as if what I had to say didn't matter. And so the next question I ask myself as a 40 something year old woman is, is that true? No, it's not true.

And so the next question I ask myself as a 40 something year old woman is, is that true? No, it's not true. It is not true that what I have to say doesn't matter. Like I know that what I have to say is of value. So then the last question is, if it's not true, what is true? So again, I go to... what I have to say is valuable and matters. So I shifted what was a belief that was kind of operating under the surface for me for my whole life. I mean, I'm sure there's examples of, you again, I can't, I didn't raise my hand in school. I didn't assert myself in certain relationships, all the things, right? So I started to live from, and there's six stories in the book. So six different beliefs that I really went through and shared the story of, so there's that in the book. But then the idea of living from this newer, truer belief is what I started doing right about the time when the book came out. Obviously the book came out and I was like, and I'll even give you, and I typically would not talk about this, but, ah so I started to live from what I have to say matters. And that was reflected in even my earliest videos, right? Like I was tentative, but I was like, I have to keep showing up and you know, what I have to say matters. And so was starting to try and to live from this new belief. And the book got published in early July of 2021. And the only person that read the book before I published it was my son, Nick, because it was important to me that he that he was behind what I was writing. He wrote the forward of the book. So obviously he was very behind it. The book came out and my parents are divorced, but my dad still belongs to this country club. ah He belonged his whole life. I mean, essentially my whole life he's been at this country club.

The book came out and my parents are divorced, but my dad still belongs to this country club. ah He belonged his whole life. I mean, essentially my whole life he's been at this country club. Somebody from the country club went on Amazon and you know how Amazon has that like look inside the book and they give you a little bit of the book. Well, what Amazon chose to put in there because I didn't, what Amazon chose to put in there was the story of my running away from school and getting spanked so much, right? So my dad, so somebody called my dad and said, your daughter. is essentially painting you as a child abuser. So my dad, we had gotten to a decent relationship obviously at that point in my life, but the book coming out was an extremely jarring. um between, you my dad was basically like, you will pull that book down, you will, you know. And so it was really a testament of this belief. I totally believe this is divine intervention. I was not anticipating this happening. Like I never wrote any of that book to hurt anybody. It was my truth. It was my truth that I wanted to share with the world. And. He basically was like, you need to take this down. need to, you know, and me deciding what I have to say matters at the end of the day. That's what, that's what prevailed. And so we had a couple of years of really no contact after that book came out. and we've never really just like true Gen X fashion. We've never really talked through it. I just got to a place where my dad is in his 80s and he's my dad and I love him and I'm willing to have the relationship that I have with him rather than not have any relationship. Does that make sense? Yeah, because that's what serves you. You're not doing it to serve anyone else.

relationship. Does that make sense? Yeah, because that's what serves you. You're not doing it to serve anyone else. That's you've chosen this this relationship. I want a relationship with him and I'm choosing how the relationship is going to be. And that still serves you. And you're still using your voice even in that. yeah, that. obviously didn't take the book down over and over and over again. If anything, parents or people who have read the book have said, gosh, you know, I was spanked too. were all like, you know, like nobody took this as, as, as offensively as my dad did. But talk about stick, you know, sticking your what's the word sticking to your guns? And that that was a test to you and you held the test. I mean, I always say when you set a boundary, the people that get the most upset about the boundary are usually the reason you're setting the boundary. So and that that was a test of holding that boundary. So. and a test of like this new belief that I am planning to live from uh is really being tested. And so it ended up working out, but it was difficult when the book published and that happened. I'm sure. Well, you're almost rewiring, right? You're rewiring your subconscious when you do that. You're completely rewiring that. Do have another question? No, I just think that you're a remarkable person in a remarkable role model. you had something happen at a young age and you've done a hell of a job. So kudos to you. Thank you. Absolutely, and helping people. Yeah, just cool. My last question is always, where do you see yourself in five years? I would like to be making a bigger impact.

So kudos to you. Thank you. Absolutely, and helping people. Yeah, just cool. My last question is always, where do you see yourself in five years? I would like to be making a bigger impact. I would like to eventually train other people in what I'm doing and to know that at some point, maybe not, certainly not five years from now, but at some point when I decide my work here is done, that it will continue. You know, it's funny you say about the training because I almost brought up when we were talking about public speaking that I could see you having a whole team of people, know, curriculum. Yeah, exactly. Train the trainer of your you know, equivalent of your leap, your adaptation of that. You could have that, you know, in the schools and train the trainer and have this whole thing. A team. oh that is more possible for me training other people so that more people can be helped is a more viable avenue for me than becoming a, what's the word I'm looking for? Not public school, like a, yeah, but what a keynote speaker. Like that's not me. You can train people to go do that. I mean, Kim, we can't thank you enough for sharing your story, for being so candid. I know that there's listeners that you are going to help with so much. I mean, your story, your tools, your guidance. um I know that you have helped some parents feel seen, probably some adult children feel seen and some Gen Xers feel seen with everything that you've shared. You really have. had a broad stroke in many areas through this episode. So we really thank you for your time and that Mischief and Mayhem were willing to share you with us for so long. Yeah, now they're happy because they're with their mommy.

So we really thank you for your time and that Mischief and Mayhem were willing to share you with us for so long. Yeah, now they're happy because they're with their mommy. And the first book is Me While Raising You, but there was a second part, the second title to that book, The Me. Yeah. OK. actually it's free on Kindle, but it's called Becoming Me While Raising You, A Mother's Journey to Herself. So, Be My Raising You. A Mother's Journey to Herself. And then the second book is Lost. yes, it's being published by Wiley later this year in November. And they actually saw a video I did and came to me and asked me to write a book. So that's pretty, that's very exciting. And it's called Lost in Place, How to Motivate, Support, and Launch an Adult Child. I love it. love it. And both of those can be found on Amazon, correct? Well, the one is now and then that's in November, you said, lost in place. OK. OK, and we would love to have you back on, but even if not, we'll make some sort of promotional video at that time. You let us know when it's out and we'll give you a shout out. And we will put in the show notes everywhere you can find Kim. If you want to reach out to her. all of her socials everything will be in the show notes uh... again thank you thank you thank you have a good her Thank you both. I have not ever had the ability to share some of the things that I have shared. you guys have asked me about my story and thank you for taking an interest in me and allowing me to share not only my story, but my work. Of course. Thanks for trusting us. Yes. And as we say to all of our guests, will hold your story with reverence and respect. And it's precious to us.

Of course. Thanks for trusting us. Yes. And as we say to all of our guests, will hold your story with reverence and respect. And it's precious to us. And we are just so grateful you're willing to share it with us and with our listeners and with your listeners and fans. So they get more access to you, which is always exciting. So if you have any questions or comments for Kim, she will see them, leave them under the socials. And of course, we always love to hear from you. So leave us with any comments or questions you have. and we will see you next time. Bye.