Episode 12 - Boomer Series: Dana

[Music] Welcome to GenX Adulting. It's Thanksgiving Week and so today we have a special guest with us, somebody that I'm very grateful for and Brian's very grateful for, my mom, Dana. And she is a boomer. She's a bona fide boomer and so she's going to share her life experience with us and our audience and give the younger generation some insight into what life was like for a woman growing up during her time. So mom, let's start with when you were born. We'll go with that. Well, I was born in October of 1947. Okay, so in the 40s? In the 40s at the end of the war, I think World War II ended around 45, right about there. Okay. Anyway, so towards the end of that, the 40s. And then our family, when they came over to America, they didn't stop really and settle in East Coast at all, right? They just came straight to the West Coast. I'm not sure. And where they come from? Germany, southern Germany. Okay. And but the Annie Jean did a genealogy on the family. On the family tree. Yes, but she really dived into, that's the paper I'm holding, some of it, a lot of genealogy. And some of the people were in Indiana. But I don't know the connection to the relationship. How far, you know, was it just this branch went there, but it had nothing to do with us type of thing. But we're pretty much sorry, we're pretty much West Coast people though. You would say like our family is really rooted in the West. We were kind of those pioneer people that came out and went out to the West. Yes. Yeah. From what I understand, they participated in the Oklahoma land rush. And I don't know what the outcome was for them. Right. But I do know they, my grandmother, which would be your great grandmother, was born in Hanover, Kansas in 1897. And then they moved to Enid, Oklahoma.

the outcome was for them. Right. But I do know they, my grandmother, which would be your great grandmother, was born in Hanover, Kansas in 1897. And then they moved to Enid, Oklahoma. And when she was, no, I'm not sure what held she was. Do you know if they were, were they there when the dust bowl happened? I don't know. Okay. I don't know. But didn't her dad, he was a sheriff, right? He was a sheriff. And he, we would hear stories that he would have to go out and talk to the and I believe he had to arrest a couple of the James brothers. And that's so cool. Yeah. And I wish I knew more, but I, you know, as a kid, you listen and right. Right. So I think it was an interesting time. I know that she, she meaning Nana, Nana. Yeah. Would talk about going down and having a picnic and they'd go out in the buck board and they'd have their picnic lunch and they'd take the buck board down by the creek and that kind of thing. So what's a bug board? I was just going to ask the same. You don't know what a bug board is. No, my goodness. It is a, like, how would you describe it for somebody? It's a giant wagon. Okay. And horses are pulling it and that people sit up here. Like a stagecoach? No, like it's open or if it has seats, like if you're going to church, everyone would climb in and sit in these little woods. Sounds like a little house on the prairies. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So she actually lived little house in the prairie and on the West coast. Well, in Kansas, but still, I mean, that's pretty far West compared to when America was being settled or Oklahoma. Yeah. That was the frontier. Yeah, it was the frontier. Yeah. So, yeah, so she was a wonderful lady. And then after, did they move from Oklahoma? Yes. At 16, they moved to Portland.

That was the frontier. Yeah, it was the frontier. Yeah. So, yeah, so she was a wonderful lady. And then after, did they move from Oklahoma? Yes. At 16, they moved to Portland. Oregon. Oregon. Portland, Oregon. And they've been there ever since. So that would have been 1913 for her when she was 16. So if you recall old pictures of Portland and the logging and the waterfront and the muddy streets all of that, I mean, she was there then. I think I remember talking to her. I feel like they came through the on the Oregon trail. Well, I'm sure they did. I think that's how people came. Yeah. That's amazing. I know. That is amazing. Quick sidebar too. I did talk to her that one time on her 100th birthday, which is cool in its own. Yes, she lived to be 100. Yeah, it's amazing. And I remember talking to her and she was saying her dad was a sheriff. He did arrest the James brothers and Billy the kid. But they actually respected him as a person and as the law man because he was fair. And whatever that meant back in the day, they had a lot of respect for him. And he actually, I think, respected them as well. But he was a pain or they were a pain in his side. Yeah, but they but they probably worked with him more than other people too. Yeah. Because of how he was. I remember him. That's cool. That's really cool. He established themselves in Portland, in Northeast Portland, in the Rose City area, in the Laurelhurst area, Selwood area. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then your mom and her sister, Annie Jean and her brother, Uncle Mel were born, right? Yeah. So when was what year was your mom born? Off the top of your head. Yeah, 1930 something. Okay. Let's see. Probably 19. I don't know. Well, how old was she when she had you? That's right. She was 18.

Off the top of your head. Yeah, 1930 something. Okay. Let's see. Probably 19. I don't know. Well, how old was she when she had you? That's right. She was 18. Okay. So do the math. If my mom was born in 47. So 29. 1929. Yeah, 1929. Wow. No? Maybe. Yeah. That's the math. I know. So she had you. Okay. So she was born in 1929. And then didn't you tell me that before she was with grandpa, she was married before him? Yes. She had married Mr. Winter. And I hate to say this. I don't know his first name. So how old was she when she married? She would have been like 18. So right before she had you. Right. She was married. Okay. All right. And so why at that time, because I'm sure that was common. They were getting married young. Isn't this the baby boomers, right? The war ended. Men came home. Everybody started getting together. Yeah. But when that was happening, it was the war was ending. So you have these, you know, and to preface this a little bit is her, her father was, was killed in a car accident and she was five. So Nana brought these three kids up by themselves. So which was hard in those days, but that was a single mom in the twenties in Portland, Oregon, Portland, Oregon, like the wild west. It's not like Portland wasn't weird back then. No. Well, not weird as we understand. Yeah. Yeah. That's insane. She's a single mom raising the three of them. So you have to her sister, Annie Jean and mom, Annie Jean more than mom was, you know, you get, that's not really what I want to say is the young people, people were coming home from the war. And when you're a teenager, which they were, you think, you know, you think, oh, there's a war. Who knows how long we'll live. We need to live our life to the

were coming home from the war. And when you're a teenager, which they were, you think, you know, you think, oh, there's a war. Who knows how long we'll live. We need to live our life to the fullest. And we just don't know what tomorrow will bring. And you have that war anxiety mixed in there as a teenager. That makes sense. That teenage mind. Yes. And I think that that my aunt and my mother kind of did. It was probably, I've never heard of that perspective before. That's amazing. Actually. Well, isn't that what caused the baby boom? Everyone got swept up a bit into that feeling. Yeah. People were coming home and the women that had gone to work because the men were gone. We've all seen that in movies. That's where I know it from. Went back, did stop working. That was, I think, caused some people issues. But anyway, and the men came home because they'd been gone two, three years, if not longer. Right. And then babies start happening. And that's where boomer comes from. So just to explain, that's where the boomer is. Is that where the war ended. Women did have to go work in the factories to cover the jobs for men because the men were away at war. I think a lot of women enjoyed working and resented having to go back into domestic life. Right. But then then they, their men came back and they started having a family. They were swept up in that, that time, that emotion of the end of the war. And then you kind of go into the fifties, right? Yeah. And you have, and then all of a sudden suburbs came about. Right. And you have all these young couples having babies. Right. You know, your mother probably can tell you more about that than I, as far as what went on with that, because she's 10 years older than I am. And that really was her time.

having babies. Right. You know, your mother probably can tell you more about that than I, as far as what went on with that, because she's 10 years older than I am. And that really was her time. Yeah. Yeah. She's a silent generation. Yeah. So that, so I'm just kind of from what I heard. You're a baby from the boomers. Yeah. I was just a baby. I do have a question though. Do you, do you know what your mom did during the war? Like what was, did she was a little girl. She was okay. Yeah. She was a high school. She was a teenager because she married Mr. Winter when he came home from war. I love that his name's. I know it's awesome. I don't think that I'm not sure when she married. You don't know why she married. I think he was still out to war. So he may have been home on leave and they married and then he went out again. This is the, the beginning of Portland being weird. Okay. So did they, um, he didn't die in the war, did he? No, he came back. And then they just got divorced. Yes. This is it. It worked out. Okay. And then she married grandpa. And then she and grandpa met. Right. My dad met and they got married. I don't know how they met. Okay. I don't tell you. I have no idea how they met. Is this, uh, that silent generation then your mom is the silent generation. No, I'm the beginning of the boomers. No, your mom, your mom, my mother. Yeah. Probably. Yeah. So she didn't say shit. Yeah. No, she, yes. She was silent. And we had a lot of, a lot of, um, there were a lot of different things going on. As we talk, I can pull in some of them. So she, they, they, you wouldn't tell your children things like that. Yeah. Just hold onto your horses. Listeners. There's a lot coming your way. This all sounds innocent. It's about to

they, you wouldn't tell your children things like that. Yeah. Just hold onto your horses. Listeners. There's a lot coming your way. This all sounds innocent. It's about to get wild. Yeah. So you, you had, uh, you, two sisters and a brother. So there were four of you, you were the oldest and you grew up in Southeast Portland or Northeast Portland? No, we grew up in, um, well, that's interesting. When, like when I was little, I, I don't know where, where we were, but I think it was North Portland. Were you in like the Gresham area or? No, my dad grew up in Park Rose. Okay. So we did live in a little house by the Sandy drive-in. We were little then, but then somehow or other, I'm not sure how we had a house out in Lake Oswego up on a hill. Cute little house. That's where I went to kindergarten and first grade. I didn't know that. Yeah. It's a cute little house. And I don't can't tell you. Bonnie was there then. That's your sister. Yeah. It was Bonnie, Steve and me. Okay. And so we were there and then in first grade, maybe second grade, about there, we moved out to Grant Street, which was not so far out now, but was way out Northeast Portland, like 170th or something. And there wasn't a whole lot out there. So that's Gresham area for sure. Well, it was still Portland. It wasn't that way. It was just before Gresham and Gresham was just a tiny town then because there were still farms. There were still farms everywhere. It feels like it's more modern. Yeah. I guess you're thinking of it as more modern, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was there were still farms everywhere. Oh yeah. And they were just starting to, they had bought a home there and that's where we were when my younger sister was born, Barbara.

It was there were still farms everywhere. Oh yeah. And they were just starting to, they had bought a home there and that's where we were when my younger sister was born, Barbara. So you grew up then in that area, right? Yes. That's where you grew up. All right. Quick question. When you lived in Lake Oswego, was it Lake Oswego? Like we know it today, because it's a wealthy suburb today, or at least it was 20 years ago when we were living there. Yes. It's still very, it's very affluent today. Was it? Very fluent. And yes, it was affluent, but we were living up in the hill. So probably certain areas were, but areas around it were not. And I don't really know too much, but that growth there, again, it was a small little place, probably just people around the lake. Yeah. Yeah. So, because you're thinking of it with the downtown area and that, that downtown area had one little street. Cause I remember going to buy my new shoes at a store there that was called the Buster Brown store or something right next to the theater. And that's still there. I saw it when I was there this past spring. Oh, that's funny. That is so funny. So when you were in high school, would that have been the early sixties or mid sixties? So you remember when JFK was shot? Where were you in JFK was shot? I was a junior in high school in Medford. Oh, when you guys lived in... Remember we moved around a lot. So you lived in... Medford. Yes, lived in Southern Oregon. Yeah. So... I never, I did not know you lived in Medford, Oregon. Yes. I can't... When I was about the fifth grade, we moved to Twin Falls, Idaho. And that was back when people didn't change, move to change jobs. That was a new concept going on. People were pretty well in their neighborhoods, right? Well, my dad got

Idaho. And that was back when people didn't change, move to change jobs. That was a new concept going on. People were pretty well in their neighborhoods, right? Well, my dad got promoted to, he worked for a moving company, promoted to run this moving company in Twin Falls, Idaho. So we lived there from about fifth grade till seventh grade. And then in the seventh grade, we moved to Bountiful, Utah. We're there for a year. Then we moved back to Twin Falls to finish out my eighth grade here. I'm sorry. I have to think. Yeah. You're just remembering it all. Yeah. Yeah. And then we moved back to Portland and I started high school in Portland at Madison High School. Right. And in my sophomore year, we moved to Medford for a year. In Southern Oregon. And at the end of that year, we moved back to Portland. And I finished my senior year at Madison High School. It's a lot of moving during a really crazy time in a child's life, but it's so such a very rural areas too. That was total timber company country. When we went to Twin Falls, it was a small town, but it was the best place for a kid. It was potato farms, you know, ranch, branches and potatoes, small town, small town, I think like 20,000 people with that. And we would get in our bikes and ride for miles and miles and come back and we'd build these tree. It was a wonderful place for children to grow up. Right. You know, most of my friends had horses or lived out and I really remember Twin Falls with bond members. That's great. When we were in Twin Falls, I would have been seventh grade, maybe eighth grade. Anyway, my brother, Steve, two years younger than me, and Twin Falls was right at the edge of the Snake River Canyon. The Snake River floats through there and it was Canyon. That's

Anyway, my brother, Steve, two years younger than me, and Twin Falls was right at the edge of the Snake River Canyon. The Snake River floats through there and it was Canyon. That's awesome. And the Memorial Bridge was there. Big bridge. It's the one that evil, Knievel jumped over. Remember evil. Jen Exers do, but anyone younger than this doesn't know. Oh yeah. I remember watching evil Knievel on TV for sure. Yeah. Well, while we were there, my dad had changed jobs and he was a DJ at the local and my brother and his friend, I can't tell you the name. I think there were two kids, three of them, one, including my brother, went out by the bridge and they weren't supposed to be out there. And they decided that they would walk down to the Canyon way far below and their little paths or however they were doing it. And so I believe Steve stepped back to let another kid by and he fell hundreds of feet and landed on a wild rose bush. And of course the radio station got the news. And so my dad went right out there and they, he was going to go down, but my dad was a big guy. His nickname was Moose. He was a football player, big guy, and they couldn't hold him. He couldn't get down to him. So they had to go up to the country club up here and get a boat, motorboat and get the boat down and then hike up to him and then carried him out. And they took to the little hospital and all his insides had shifted to one side and the rest of them was filled with blood. So they did, who knows? I don't know what they did. And this is Steve. Yeah. And he's got a big, long scar scar. So whatever they did to move things back or whatever. And he was in the hospital two weeks, if that, and then a week later, he was out playing baseball and a baseball team.

whatever they did to move things back or whatever. And he was in the hospital two weeks, if that, and then a week later, he was out playing baseball and a baseball team. I can see that just a kid, but he was, but you forgot the one part where there was no other bushes. It was the only rose bush. Yeah. Wild rose. It was, there was one boy, you know, this, this story. I know the story. There's one Bush and he landed in the one bush and his pants ripped and they said, that's where God and our God had a hold of his pants and they ripped. Yeah. He curled up and he bounced from rock. I mean, but wherever he hit, there was sagebrush and stuff, but wherever he hit, it's just amazing. He lived. It's funny as he's the reason there's like signs that say be careful and all that. There probably was a sign there then. Yeah. Nobody was supposed to be there. And the kids knew they weren't supposed to do that. Of course. So you were in Medford in high school when JFK was assassinated and that would have, you would have been there probably when Martin Luther King was assassinated and Bobby Kennedy too, all that time. Or were you back in Portland for Bobby? No, I was back in Portland. And when Martin, I think I was important when Martin Luther King. Yeah. Yeah. And so when we've learned about that in our history classes in school, it, it just seemed completely chaotic and traumatizing. Was it as crazy as what we've learned about just with JFK getting killed and then Bobby Kennedy getting killed and Martin Luther King Jr. getting killed and the protesting going on for the Vietnam war and all of that and the hippie counterculture movement. Since you were there for it, is it depicted correctly in movies and what we've learned in history books? Would you say it's

war and all of that and the hippie counterculture movement. Since you were there for it, is it depicted correctly in movies and what we've learned in history books? Would you say it's accurate? Probably. When he was killed, it's like the, the nation just was in shock. Okay. Everybody went home. This is JFK, right? Everybody went home and gathered around the TV. And I remember when Walter Cronkite came on and said, the president has passed. It makes me emotional. Now it was, it made you feel afraid. Yeah. It was like, what are you going to do now? Right. What's going to happen to us without our president? Right. And then they had the funeral it was just horrible. Well, I was a junior. I was probably 16, 15, six. Well, I was probably just turned 16. He died on November 22nd. Because the way you're describing it is how we dealt with nine 11. I would say nine 11 is RJ, FK Jr. Yeah. And so of course, when that happened, then you have all the other things that were going on, the process testing by the students. Um, as time went on, right after Lyndon Johnson became president then, and then you had the people protesting the Vietnam war. And you had people really divided about that. Right. Very much so. And, um, and that was all through the sixties. Just as our nation has been divided, I'd say for the last eight years in a lot of ways, because of politics, would you see similarities in the division civil rights was in there too. Yeah. And there was a lot of, it was a change. It was a cultural change, a shift. And, um, because women's rights were in there. Yeah. They were later civil rights. Yeah. But there was a lot, there was a lot there. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot. And wasn't, um, Steve was in Vietnam then, right? Right. Steve. Um, God, I don't

Yeah. They were later civil rights. Yeah. But there was a lot, there was a lot there. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot. And wasn't, um, Steve was in Vietnam then, right? Right. Steve. Um, God, I don't know if he even graduated from high school. Do you remember if he wanted to go or did he went down? Well, it was kind of your typical story is that I believe that there was conflict going on and at home and he, uh, probably with dad, you know, a teenage boy and the whole thing. So you're saying like him and grandpa were probably arguing and all that. Right. Did, do you know? I had left already because he, how old was he when he went to Vietnam? 18. You know, if he lied, no, on his age. Okay. No, but he wasn't drafted. No, he joined. He joined the Marines. Okay. And he, he survived just the heads up. He survived. He went and served. How long was he gone? Do you remember? Whatever that it was only did one service, one tour tour. And I think they were 18 months, maybe a year. I, to be honest, I don't remember how long, but he only did one tour. So you graduated from high school. Um, what year would that have been? 1965. So the mid sixties. And did you go to college or what did you know? I wanted to go to college. Um, but my dad didn't feel that women should go to college, that it would, they go just to find a husband and, and, um, that, uh, it was a waste of time. Now, not all dads thought that obviously, I mean, my friends all went to college. The majority of your, uh, female friends went to college. Yeah. I think that's yes. So it was normal in high school year, senior year for everyone to be talking about going to college. No one really talked about it. Oh, that's so interesting. But they went, but they went, but

normal in high school year, senior year for everyone to be talking about going to college. No one really talked about it. Oh, that's so interesting. But they went, but they went, but grandpa, well, the boys went, the guys went because if you didn't go to college, you were drafted. Right. So they didn't have a choice. Right. They wanted to go to college to not have to go to war and you had, couldn't you had to have certain grades too. Couldn't, you know, right, right, right. Drop out. If you dropped out of college, they would grab you up and draft you. So there was always this anxiety for young men of they could go to war at any time, if they mess up their life, which is something that, um, we haven't had a draft since Vietnam. So that's not anything that any men have had to deal with. Since Vietnam, that anxiety. No, but there is the anxiety, at least from my age in, and I've probably passed or held onto the anxiety for my sons, because you have to sign up for, what's it called? The secret, uh, selective service, right. Right. When the boys 18, they have to register with something. Right. I don't remember doing it. Yeah. And I don't like my kids having to do it either. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think they're automatically, I think it's automatic at this point. Yeah. But it is interesting that since Vietnam, we haven't had a draft situation because it's, I can't imagine the utter anxiety and terror these young men felt. The other piece of this is right. This is a, becomes a racial conversation because if you're a lot of the white kids could go to college or escape to Canada. Whereas a lot of the minorities back then it was mostly African Americans. Right. They went to the war and that that added to the contentiousness of it. All

Whereas a lot of the minorities back then it was mostly African Americans. Right. They went to the war and that that added to the contentiousness of it. All right. Yeah. And at least in historical context, maybe was that a thing back then talked about now that it's post-war and you look back and you see how many young black men were killed in Vietnam and disproportionate to young white men, you know, history that isn't favorable to that. They remember during that time is when the civil rights was going on. So no one really talked in my household. No one talked about that. And I didn't hear that conversation anywhere. Yeah. That's kind of what I mean. Yeah. No, that wasn't, that wasn't normal to talk about. I don't think in any, most households probably at that time. Right. And Portland, it was not set up demographically, like Southern States or East coast, even there was Michigan, even or California, even probably. California was more Mexican people that were there. And I'm sure they had the same situation of draft. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's, yeah. But so in your situation, your dad didn't feel women need to go to college. Right. Women should just get married. Well, he didn't say that necessarily, but he, I mean, that was what else are you going to do? That's you're brought up that you get married and have kids. Right. You aren't brought up and people want to be nurses or teachers. Those were. But didn't you have to go to college for that? Yeah. Our secretaries. Okay. And in high school, I took business classes. Right. So, but you were raised with this wide open world of you can do anything and go to college and be anything concept that women are young women are familiar with. No.

you were raised with this wide open world of you can do anything and go to college and be anything concept that women are young women are familiar with. No. So, and also then once I graduated, he expected me to go to work right away. What kind of, what kind of work if you, whatever job I could get, what I did is I worked as a clerk at this company down on Columbia Boulevard, going North, way North. Yeah. And they, it was, I can't think of the name of it. It'll probably come to me at an odd moment that they made wood stains. And so I was in Wex. Minwax. Yeah. Like that. Okay. That could be it as far as. But, um, so I worked there. I can't even tell you how long. And you would have been 18. I would have been, now I graduated high school at 17. Okay. Because my birthday was late. Right. So I worked there. I can't remember for how long. And then I worked for Greyhound Moving Company, Dan Lines. Annie Jean had a job there. And so I worked there for a while as a secretary. And Busta left there to go to work with TWA. Because that's the exciting part, you were a flight attendant. I was a flight attendant. Yeah. So that happened. You would have been what, 19? Yeah. 19. You became a flight attendant with TWA. And back then. Yeah. But I was just, yeah, 19. I think you had to be 20. And I was just turning 20. And back then they were called stewardesses. They were not called flight attendants. It was right. And I don't think there were any men. It was majority. They were men. Were there men? Not like now. The men were pursers. And they were usually on the. What's a purser? Sorry. A purser is. All this technology, you know, it's. Yeah. The purser is, I don't know totally what all they do, but they probably keep,

they were usually on the. What's a purser? Sorry. A purser is. All this technology, you know, it's. Yeah. The purser is, I don't know totally what all they do, but they probably keep, work on international flights and controlling the money and the alcohol and the tracking of the flight that you have to control. So are they on the flight? Oh yeah. They usually work first class. Okay. So there was a hierarchy. I was just going to say that's where you're in charge of business stuff. And then there were the stewardesses. And back then you had to look, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, you had to weigh a certain weight. You had weigh ins, right? Yes. Were they weekly? They were surprised weigh in. Surprise weigh ins. So you could come in, you come into the. To get your sign into your flight. Yeah. And get your mail and there'd be a supervisor there saying, not only that, but they check your fingers to make sure that your nail polish was perfect. And that you had to wear a girdle. And my roommate Casey got written up a couple of times because she wouldn't wear one and you couldn't wear panty girdle. Do you even know what I'm talking about? Well, it's around your waist, down to your thighs. Okay. Yes. And it would be like a tube. It's almost like, um, like a corset, but, uh, for, for young women today, it's like shape wear. Skims. It's like a suppose. And then at the bottom of it, it has the little things that would hook your nylons into. Yeah. So, um, like what you look, what young women now would wear to be sexy. Yes. Yes. The garter, like the, well, it's not the garter though, but it's like the, the hooks with the, the panty hose. They would wear it as a sexy thing. Now the panty hose, what had the hooks

Yes. Yes. The garter, like the, well, it's not the garter though, but it's like the, the hooks with the, the panty hose. They would wear it as a sexy thing. Now the panty hose, what had the hooks underneath the legs. Okay. And, but from the back of your uniform, you may want to cut this out. No, it's interesting. The uniform with a regular old fashioned girdle, you just have a smooth back. Yes. With a panty hose. There's definition on, on where your bottom is. Okay. And the reason that they were really, um, strict about that is if you think about where your eyes are, when, uh, stewardess walks down the aisle, it's right at your butt area. Right. Right. You know, so as a flight, so as a flight attendant for TWA in 1960. Well, I got, it would have been this is 67 68. Okay. So as a flight attendant for TWA in 1968, a woman had surprise weigh-ins. She had her nail polish checked to make sure it was appropriate. You couldn't be overweight. You could not be overweight grounded if you were overweight. And she had to wear girdle, which is like a rubber shape where elastic, elastic wear not, I would assume not very comfortable. But once it's on, it's on. Think about it. I was a size four. Right. It wasn't that big a deal. I mean, it was tight, but it wasn't like now it would be uncomfortable. Right. Right. Right. It was just, you know, and so, and everything had to be perfect. Your uniform. Your hair couldn't be, your hair couldn't be long. Oh, your hair had to be in a bun. So your hair had to be short. Yeah. It's, I remember when they, I flew in the gals had long hair. I was like, holy crap. And, and you, I'm sure had to have your makeup. Perfect. Oh yeah. And, and I mean, if you look back, if you think about it, we wore hats

I flew in the gals had long hair. I was like, holy crap. And, and you, I'm sure had to have your makeup. Perfect. Oh yeah. And, and I mean, if you look back, if you think about it, we wore hats and you wear the little hats. Yeah. And then as soon as the doors closed, then the hats can come off. Okay. So very different than now. Now they look like slobs. They do. Well, and this is coming from someone who was there, you know, in the sixties where there were expectations. And then you've probably watched the evolution of now I, I agree surprise weigh-ins should not be a thing, but she's thinking, yeah, I love it. But what they were promoting and what at that time you were the face of the company, right? Like you couldn't have your uniform on and go to a bar, right? You could, you were the face of the company. And when you flew then not everybody flew, right? So people that flew came on the airplane dressed up. Yes. And, um, businessmen in business suits. Um, I think that's the golden age of air travel. It was only because you're right. People dressed nice back then they acted professionally. It's, it's a fricking ball list today. It's crazy. A Greyhound bus in the air. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a totally different. And when they first, we would never have walked through the aisle with a garbage bag, going, whatever they say, and you're throwing your things in a garbage bag. We had trays and we come and we collect everything on a tray, go back to the galley and come back out. You just did not do that. And of course we had food and hot food, hot food. And TWA was one of the first airlines to, um, at least this is what I understood to have like microwaves. And so we had hot food. So the galley, I loved working the galley. Oh, a microwave

hot food. And TWA was one of the first airlines to, um, at least this is what I understood to have like microwaves. And so we had hot food. So the galley, I loved working the galley. Oh, a microwave in the late sixties. That's going to be no, it was, no, I don't even know if it was really a microwave, but, but everything, comes in and whip it up there and you set your timer and you learn to set it before you take off. And cause you need to get it done so you can get it out. It was fun. You know, it's, what's interesting is you seem, I'm getting a sense of pride from you in that, having that job and doing it like you guys took pride in it. Yes, you did. Yeah. Yeah. And you got to travel. And I traveled not a whole lot. I traveled a little bit. I traveled in the airplane working, right? But I moved to Kansas city. So how old were you when you moved from Portland, when you became a steward, a flight attendant 19. And where did you go? Kansas city. And that was your base. That was where the training school was. Okay. And it was so exciting. It, it really was my little few months of like what a college life would have been like. I had roommates, the apartment complex that they put the girls up in. You walked on bridges because it was nothing, but a swimming pool below. So you walked on bridges to get to your apartment and they were very modern and, and it was exciting. Yeah. It was just really exciting. And then you went to school every day and learned about the planes and what years to do and safety and that type of thing. So how long did you have to go to school? I think it was six or eight weeks. And then you were able to fly on the planes. And did you fly with fellow friends like your roommates or anything? Actually, no, you usually, hopefully the

think it was six or eight weeks. And then you were able to fly on the planes. And did you fly with fellow friends like your roommates or anything? Actually, no, you usually, hopefully the people you flew with was senior to you. So they knew what to do. And you went through that learning curve. True. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. But no, I never really did fly with them. Interesting. But once we moved out of the training apartments, we rented an apartment and we all were just gone at different times. Because you pick your schedule, you know, monthly. And if you're on standby, it just, you have to be ready to go. So you did training in Kansas City. You kind of graduated, started flying, but that was still your home base? Because I did, I wanted, you put down where you wanted to go. And I wanted to go to New York and I got Kansas City, which is really just as well. Everybody wanted to go to New York though. No, no, San Francisco, you know, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, the big Miami thing then that wasn't a hub for TWA. Okay. So, so I got Kansas City. God was looking out for me because I'm not sure how I would have done in New York. Kansas City is actually a really cool city. It is, you know, well, you left it, right? You loved your time there. I liked Kansas City. And it's first place I experienced like cold in the winter. And yeah, we had a good time. That's where I met your dad. And that's where you met my dad. And so how did you guys meet? He was a blind date. I was flying with a gal who knew him. I'm not sure where we were going. And she said, you know, I should fix you up with this guy. I know. I went, Oh, okay. Well, yeah. Well, so where did you guys go on your blind date? Sounds very scandalous.

said, you know, I should fix you up with this guy. I know. I went, Oh, okay. Well, yeah. Well, so where did you guys go on your blind date? Sounds very scandalous. I assume a restaurant. Yeah. I don't remember where we went. And then I know we went back to his house and plot thickens. Yeah. And Nicole was conceived. She wasn't. No, she wasn't. Did you meet him at all before the date? Or was it truly that was the first day? That's the first time you met him. Yeah. And so for any of the younger generations, obviously no internet, no social media, us Gen Xers that we were used to that. But this is you just show up at the restaurant and meet the guy. I didn't show up at the restaurant. Oh, oh, came and picked me. Come on. So as he came up to the door and knocked on the door, strange man, you've never met, but you talked to him on the phone. Okay. So he had called you beforehand to set it up and okay. A little chitty chat. So he pulled up, but he pulled up. Yeah. And he knocked on the door. I guess. And he came in and I think I had roommates that were home then. And uh, what was your first impression of him? I, I liked the way he looked, but I thought he was really full of himself. Accurate. And I didn't, I was unsure. He was older and I was unsure of him. He was like five years older than you. Right. Four and a half. Yeah. But still. So he was like a little intimidating. Maybe he was. And then, but things had the blind date going, must've gone well. So then you guys start dating. Well, not really. I was going with somebody else at the time and I don't want to go into that. Okay. And so I was really torn. Right. Here I was having this new exciting life and, and I was really torn. Right. What I should be doing. I made some really

and I don't want to go into that. Okay. And so I was really torn. Right. Here I was having this new exciting life and, and I was really torn. Right. What I should be doing. I made some really bad choices. Right. And so I wasn't really that interested in him because I thought he was a blowhard. Right. And my girlfriend roommate, Jackie, Jackie was from, I want to say around Philadelphia. I'm not sure that she was very attractive. She had black hair in these, those weird blue eyes that people have. Crystal blue eyes. And when she walked, it was like she glided. She had a distancing. Very graceful. Yeah. So Bob took her out and then that made me jealous. So, so he took you out and then you were kind of torn. So you were hesitating. Yeah. And so then he took Jackie out and then you got jealous. Yes. I mean, it was very immature. Well, you were what? 20. Yeah. Yeah. From Portland. From Portland. And he was from Detroit. Yeah. It was from Dearborn. Dearborn. Um, they had a little bit more experience than I am. Yeah. And he was going to school to be a doctor. Yeah. He was in med school at that point. Yes. So he's in med school. You're a flight attendant and, uh, his trick worked. I assume he took your friend out and he got you. Yeah. It was a trick too. Were you the prize he was after? I believe so. Yeah. Good answer. So then you guys started dating. And so we started dating. Yeah. And how long did you date? And that's how long we dated. Oh, we dated. I don't know how long it was. Like a year? Um, maybe. And then, um, I haven't thought about this in a long time. It's okay. Take your time. We can edit out the pauses. We dated. I don't know how long, but it wasn't going well. Well, how are all surprised about that? How, how long were you in Kansas city?

time. It's okay. Take your time. We can edit out the pauses. We dated. I don't know how long, but it wasn't going well. Well, how are all surprised about that? How, how long were you in Kansas city? Total, would you say? From, so the whole time you're in Kansas city for a year. I was with him. So you were with the whole time you were in Kansas city. You were with him pretty much the whole time. Because I met him, I think three weeks after I started flying, after I got out of school. Okay. So you, you did your schooling for like two months or a year, month and a half, and then met him like three weeks later. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I was a cook goose. Yes. And then what's the cook use reference? She was screwed. So things weren't going well. Right. And so I had, I was really struggling with it. And, um, were you still, I had a relationship with the relationship because I'd be out of town and I knew he was seeing, uh, the other girls in the apartment complex, the whole trip. It's awesome. This tells you you should get married. Huh? No, he's saying like the foreshadowing would have, should have been a warning. Yeah. Right. Of course. But she was 20 and I had nobody, you know, you realize that I am somewhat determined. So if I think something, I've never heard this side of it. This is awesome. So he was seeing your friends or all the girls in the apartment while you're flying. Yeah. You come back. We're together. Oh yeah. Oh no. And, um, so then what happened? So I was having a hard time with it and then with work and I had asked my supervisor if I could have, uh, some time off because, and I told her, I can't even tell you now what was wrong, but I told her blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said, no. And I said, well, then I'm going to have to quit. So

some time off because, and I told her, I can't even tell you now what was wrong, but I told her blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said, no. And I said, well, then I'm going to have to quit. So wait, let's backtrack. So dad was, um, seeing other girls while you were traveling and it was affecting you emotionally, mentally. So you wanted to just take a break. You were probably like, I need a week to figure this out a month. I need a month to figure out what I'm doing. And she said, I can't give you a month. And you were like, so I quit. And I'd already put in my, um, request to transfer to San Francisco. And it came through the last week. But I didn't know that. Yeah. No. So then you went back home and you moved back to Portland. So, and he would call me off and on. And I got a job and was working and I, I want to say I was home probably three or four months. And he called and I said, I'm not coming back because he wanted me to come back. So I'm not coming back unless we get married. I'm not doing that. And he says, well, we'll get married. And I said, we'll get married without, because his family was coming into the picture with it. Right. Because just to give some backstory, he was, he's our, my dad was I'm half Armenian and his whole family's Armenian. And at least at that time you were, he would have been expected to marry another Armenian. Oh yeah. But he also would have been expected to come home and have a big wedding at home. Right. I didn't want that. Right. Um, but he said, said, no, we'll do this and this. And of course then when I got there, it all changed. So he agreed to what you your demands basically, you said, we can get married, but I don't want a big wedding in Michigan. I want to have a small wedding, Kansas

I got there, it all changed. So he agreed to what you your demands basically, you said, we can get married, but I don't want a big wedding in Michigan. I want to have a small wedding, Kansas city or whatever. And we're going to live our life in Kansas city. Well, we would go wherever he was going to intern. Okay. And, but we would be married already. And then you went back to Kansas city and then he asked you to marry him. Well, he asked me before I came back. But with a ring and stuff. Did he do that? Uh, no, I didn't have a ring until, well, let me finish. So I came back. I worked at a hospital secretary to hospital. And then when he graduated from, um, med school, then, uh, we went, moved to Dearborn because we were going to get married. So you, okay. So that was going to happen. He basically said, we have to get married in Dearborn. So he said that, yes. Okay. And it had to be a wedding the way they, it had to be like a traditional Armenian wedding, traditional Armenian wedding. And his family wanted him to get married. That was the expectation to him. Right. And if you think a lot of expectations that they put on him, that at the time I would never have understood. Right. And so, and I don't know that he could have explained it to me either, but I definitely wouldn't have understood the culture difference was huge. And he was the oldest son and yeah, there were a lot of expectations. So you guys moved back, moved to Dearborn and did you live together? We lived at his folks house. Okay. Not together. Not together in separate, separate rooms. Even though you were married, they weren't married yet. And how long did you live there? Well, we got married June and June, so maybe six weeks. So we got married. So you, okay. So you lived at his folks

weren't married yet. And how long did you live there? Well, we got married June and June, so maybe six weeks. So we got married. So you, okay. So you lived at his folks house. So they knew we were going to get married. I don't remember the steps to it, to be honest, but I wanted to get married before we moved to Michigan. He says, it's just not possible. So they knew we were going to get married. And so things start planning while we were. So they planned your wedding while you were in Kansas city. Well, kind of. Yeah. And then you showed up and we're there for the final plans the last six weeks before the wedding, basically. Did you have a say at all? No. No, I don't think so. Right. No. Did you like, so you didn't pick like your cake or your the table studies or the flowers? No. What about your? Well, no, I think Chris and I went and picked flowers. His sister. And the cake. I don't remember picking out the cake. So that may have just come with the hall. That doesn't make sense, but it was a hall that had a big wedding. And you weren't trying to pick in the venue or any of that or the planning of the. No, I'm sure I looked at it. I'm sure I was sitting there, but I wouldn't have had an opinion. Right. And they treated me wonderful. Oh, yeah. No, no. No, no. They were mean to me or anything like that. It's just I didn't know. Right. It feels like it's what's that showed my big fat Greek wedding. Yeah. Yeah. And they kind of kind of like that. Kind of like that. So there's a protocol. Yeah. Yeah. And so they. And you were this young 20 year old girl that's coming. I was 21, I think 21 by then. But coming from Portland and not having a lot of life experience and certainly not having experience with other cultures. So very naive.

year old girl that's coming. I was 21, I think 21 by then. But coming from Portland and not having a lot of life experience and certainly not having experience with other cultures. So very naive. Very nice. And yeah, very on your own too. Right. Pretty much. Now my folks came out, but it it was expensive to come out. And my family, we had nothing. And I didn't realize that growing up because what you have is what you have. But we had nothing. I mean, my Nana came with them. They drove out. They drove from Oregon to Michigan. Yeah. And because flying back then would have been too expensive. Right. And grandma was afraid to fly. So but even so. And they Diana and Marty were married already. Like your aunt. And mom and dad and my sisters stayed at their house and Nana. My brother was in Vietnam. He wasn't there. So Auntie Diana hosted. My family, grandma and grandpa and Annie Bonnie. And then you were with Barbara and Barbara. And then you were with. And I was staying at that at Bob's house. With Grandpa Barking, Grandma. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then that's how it went. And then you got married and the ceremony was in Armenian, right? In the church. Yes. Yes. So you didn't even know. How did you know what to do or say if it was in Armenian? Somebody said, okay. I don't know. You just knew. I had a trip. So it wasn't in English. It was in Armenian. And I didn't walk down the aisle to here comes the bride. It was an Armenian song that they use and it was like, sounds like a funeral dirge. You know, was, was your uncle hot chick doing things then make a music? Oh yeah. Was he the musician or his band at the wedding? I don't remember. He might've been too young. No, he wasn't too young. No, he and were married and had kids. Yeah. I remember Lori.

Oh yeah. Was he the musician or his band at the wedding? I don't remember. He might've been too young. No, he wasn't too young. No, he and were married and had kids. Yeah. I remember Lori. Yeah. I remember being little and dancing to his and so. He may, they may, he may well have, I'm just saying, I don't remember. Yeah. And then did you guys go on a honeymoon? No. The next day he went to start his internship. And then did you get your own place? We rented a house in Livonia. Just the two of you. Yeah. Little brick house. And were you a stay at home wife? Yeah. He didn't want me working. So you were home and very isolated. Annie, Diana and uncle Marty lived just up the road. And I don't know if they were there then, but and Chris and hot chick were over that way. And I probably spent every day with one of them. So you spent your time with his sisters with the family. Yeah. With the family. Because they would have welcomed you and, and, and, and been there and all that. But still none of your friends from home, not your family. Like you're in this new place. We never went home to visit my family. So my family didn't exist for him. So like our family in Portland, did they ever meet him? No. Like Annie, Judy and uncle Doug. When, well, when he came out, once we were divorced and. So later years. Later years. He came out and Annie, Judy. Met him. I don't know that uncle Doug did. Okay. So this eventually they did. Okay. So I assume at some point you guys wanted to start a family. Well, we didn't talk about it. It just happened. Okay. So there's not a lot of communication for no communication. And that's what you do when you get married. So would you say at that time in the late sixties, because you got married

Okay. So there's not a lot of communication for no communication. And that's what you do when you get married. So would you say at that time in the late sixties, because you got married what year 1969, would that have been normal for the couple to not communicate on a deeper level about roles in the marriage or when are we going to start a family or any of that? I don't know. I don't know. But for you, but for me, it was not a conversation. I mean, you just get married and you hum along. You kind of use like, uh, aunt Chris and aunt Diana as a guide on what to do. No, I didn't use anybody as a guide. So you just, we were just married. We were a couple. Okay. Just like a young couple. Yeah. The part that was kind of missing in a way, and this is, was my immaturity. And then I didn't get is we didn't have a friendship really. Mm-hmm. And so we did things together. We went to family things together, but your dad had his work life. And then he had family life. And I didn't fall into his work life at all. I was just in the family life and it was a very patriarchal culture. So, and I also grew up with, um, was told by my mother, you do what your husband wants. If your husband wants to move, you move. If he wants to do this, you do this. Um, so I didn't come with any sense of what a marriage was supposed to be. Well, you kind of did, right? And I was going to ask you that, do you feel that what you got yourself into modeled maybe what your mom, her marriage was to your point, you kind of just said it to you, right? Where you, if your husband wants to move, you move. If you, if he wants to do this, you do this. And so is that, do you think that was sort of the model you were following or the playbook? I think I took her words to the furthest

If you, if he wants to do this, you do this. And so is that, do you think that was sort of the model you were following or the playbook? I think I took her words to the furthest extreme because she and my dad, um, there was a lot of interaction with them. I mean, we had a decent home life. So, yeah. So you think they probably had a little more balance than that, but you took that what she said and, and use that as a guide. Yeah. Really. And, um, so what, so you guys didn't talk about a family, but you ended up, well, we knew we were going to have children. Right. And so we did. Okay. And do you want to talk about that? Well, we had children, not really. Okay. So, well, we should say there was a baby before me and then I was born. Right. Right. I guess I can't talk about it because it does kind of fall in. I just don't want this to be long and weird. It's not going to be long and weird. Okay. And you can just say whatever you're comfortable with, you know. So your dad was in his internship and I got pregnant. And then when I had my first baby, she was anisophilic and she lived maybe two, three days. Um, anisophilic is when the top portion of your brain, your brain, stem, right? Well, your skull doesn't close. And so your brain is all, um, open. And then, um, I got pregnant again, uh, with you and you were born. Um, 12 months to the day on the same day. Cause she was born, she was named Mary and she was born March 10th, 1970. And I was born March 10th, 1971. That's wild. Yeah. And what did dad tell you about that? I thought you had said, he said God gave us was, he was going to give us another one on that day or something. And it was something like that. Yeah. And so then I was born and they didn't

I thought you had said, he said God gave us was, he was going to give us another one on that day or something. And it was something like that. Yeah. And so then I was born and they didn't know why Mary was born like that, especially at that time. Right. Right. There was no, there wasn't, there were no, there was no amnio-centesis. Right. That was just coming in. Yeah. Um, so there was no genetic counseling. Right. Uh, you were on the forefront. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, so we moved out from Livonia when you were a baby, we moved out, maybe we lived there. Oh, we might've lived there before I had you to, um, square lake apartments in Pontiac, Michigan. And we had an okay life. I mean, I had you, he was gone a lot. We should say he was a ER doctor. Yeah. So he had long shifts and long shifts and, and he was just gone. He was gone being social. Yeah. So then, um, I ended up pregnant again. Oh, I love, uh, quickly. Yeah. And, um, had, uh, Mary Beth, who is actually like Irish twins. 11 months, right? Yeah. 11 months apart. 10 months apart, 11 months apart. But she was born with, um, uh, somewhat this not, I can't remember all the terms. Isn't that terrible? But somewhat anosophilic, hydrocephalic, and, um, just a lot of problems. And they did surgery on her and they lost brain matter. And so she's legally blind. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So she acted that surgery. Pardon me. When I, I'm trying to think of the timeline. She was born and grandma had come out and because you guys didn't know anything was wrong until she was born. Right. That's correct. So you had no way to know. No. And, um, pardon me. Grandma had come out and she was born and I was, came home without her. She stayed at the hospital. Yeah. Um, go ahead.

That's correct. So you had no way to know. No. And, um, pardon me. Grandma had come out and she was born and I was, came home without her. She stayed at the hospital. Yeah. Um, go ahead. Do you know if your grandmother came out when you were born? Was that a thing or did grandma come out before Mary Beth was born or after Mary Beth was born? We decided that I was going to fly out at that time. My mom and dad lived in San Francisco and I was going to fly out with her and stay there, you and I. So wait, let's backtrack a little. So Mary Beth was born. Right. She is legally blind. She can't, the way I describe Mary Beth to people throughout my life is if you picture Helen Keller, but there's nothing going on in the brain where Helen Keller could think Mary Beth can't. Right. My time in meeting her, she seemed to know what was going on. She showed emotions, but she, she was legally blind. She couldn't walk. Right. And, uh, but she could hear she, so she wasn't with her little braces on. She can walk. Okay. She doesn't know. Like, no, her, her development is like eight months old. I know the development. It's, she is severely retarded. Right. And so it's not like having a down syndrome. No, no, no, no. So, so a tragedy. Um, and you were at 23 when all this happened by the time this all happened to you, these three kids, 23, 23 and a half, maybe. So you had the first baby, me and Mary Beth. By the time you were 23, this all had happened to you. Yeah. I was just pregnant, pregnant, pregnant. So my whole marriage, I was pregnant. And then two traumas within the two traumatic pregnancies went by the time you were 23, over a three year period. Yes. And, um, so I assumed that things that was part of the decision making and you

traumatic pregnancies went by the time you were 23, over a three year period. Yes. And, um, so I assumed that things that was part of the decision making and you going back to San Francisco. I went back to San Francisco before she had the surgery. Okay. And we didn't know when she was going to be able to come home. And I hadn't touched her. I hadn't held her nothing. I just couldn't, I just couldn't. Yeah. Because once you touch the baby, then they're yours. But if you don't touch her, then she's not mine. That was my thinking. That's how you coped with it. That was how you coped. And so I went to see her just before we left. You grandma and you and I, and grandma said, you need to pick her up and hold her in case she passes while you're gone. And so I did. And of course then all that, that maternal stuff began, but we left. Right. We were in San Francisco, maybe a week and a half. And dad called and said, you need to come back. She's going to come home from the hospital. And was that a shock? Yeah. I was surprised that, uh, cause we weren't gone that long. So we came back and she came home and. And then you had her and I. Yeah. We took care of you. Yeah. And I had a diaper service. Thank you, God. They were big service and, um, yeah. And I had you and you hummed along taking care of this incredible special needs child and a young, what was I? You were little. One. You were a baby. Right. So, but then we moved to Bloomfield Hills. We bought up a home, a nice home there. Your first birthday. No, your second birthday was there. Um, and you know, life kind of went on. And then I was pregnant again. Mm-hmm. And, um, and I had an abortion because I could not go through that again. I think that is completely understandable.

Um, and you know, life kind of went on. And then I was pregnant again. Mm-hmm. And, um, and I had an abortion because I could not go through that again. I think that is completely understandable. Your dad didn't agree with me. Right. That's another story. Right. So at any rate, so we were there. I think, I think as a woman, just woman to woman, I can't, I think most women would have made that decision if between those three years, they had suffered such trauma, I don't know anybody who could have then handled another. You're playing Russian roulette at that point. So I think that decision is, is one of the most sane decisions a woman in your situation could have made. So I was fine with the decision. Yes. I knew I couldn't. No. I couldn't do that. Especially at such a young age and without the support you would have needed. I had no support. You had no support. I didn't have my family just was, I had no support. No. And at the time too, cause this would have been 1972, 73. It's not like mental health was discussed. It wasn't like therapy was, I mean, that would have been a stigma. Even so, even so, um, obviously your dad and mine relationship had already. Flipped out the door. That's what I was going to ask. Oh yeah. After probably really after the first baby in a way, and then we had you and that was just a blessing. Like a lifeline. And then we had Mary Beth and I think that was the nail in the coffin. That was the nail in the coffin. He felt it was me. He didn't feel that he had anything to do with it. Um, and that I, it just for him, and you have to understand he was a first born son in a paternal culture and that he grew up and he was perfect. He was perfect and he believed he was perfect. Truly he did. Right.

have to understand he was a first born son in a paternal culture and that he grew up and he was perfect. He was perfect and he believed he was perfect. Truly he did. Right. I can relate to that. Yeah. And so, so the first baby would have been such a shock to him to, I mean, to both of you, of course, but life, life altering for both of you, but for someone coming a different way for him, two different ways. I mean, the first baby already had the nursery set up. So I had to come home and take the nursery apart. So all those things that happened to women that lose their babies. I did all that. And alone, alone. Yeah. And then Christine and Chris had the twins. So I would go over there and help her with the babies and she'd say, I don't know how you can do this. I don't know how you did either. Mom, because I was disassociated from disassociated. That's how you coped. You were on autopilot. You completely disassociated. And I'd say, well, what do you mean? Right. I, it just is like my brain was only this big at that point. I just did not, I couldn't. Um, it was your brain and body were helping you survive and they completely made you disassociate. I did. So you and dad handled it in two different ways. Um, the first baby, and then probably when I was born, there was that glimmer of hope and then Mary Beth came and it was gone. It was done. So the marriage was done probably. And again, that's another reason why when you got pregnant again, that decision. I'm happy you made that decision. I thank God you made that decision. I don't think you would have survived any, any, another thing. So, you know, I think everything at that point you were doing probably after the first baby, and you can correct me if I'm

I don't think you would have survived any, any, another thing. So, you know, I think everything at that point you were doing probably after the first baby, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, you were in survival mode. Oh yeah. But after the first baby, um, yes, it was, it was traumatic, but I was still, I don't know how to explain this naive enough or young enough that I just felt like, you know, that we could get through anything if we're together, cause that's what marriage is, is these are problems, but we'll work together and God will be with us and, and we'll work this out. I couldn't imagine anything causing a divorce. Right. Right. That's my, but divorce wasn't that common back then, was it? I mean, I'm sure it happened, but it wasn't like it is today, but no, not like today. Yeah. Right. But no, but I, but for me personally, I mean, right. Yeah. It was never knowing he might, uh, that he might have affairs or something. Um, I would have worked through that. Right. Cause women do work through that. Yeah. Well, you do. It's kind of like good fellows, right? Or that, that, that, that mob culture where the men do what they want and the women stay there, it's kind of a little bit like that, you know, you just kind of look past certain things and you keep living your domestic life. And as long as the domestic life's okay, things can be fine, but the domestic life wasn't okay. So, um, so after, um, you had the abortion, you guys were still married then, right? And you were still living together with Mary Beth and I in the house, but something must have taken a turn. We decided, I decided, to be honest, I can't tell you the steps. Um, when I, well, I guess I can a little bit when I took Mary Beth in to the doctor

something must have taken a turn. We decided, I decided, to be honest, I can't tell you the steps. Um, when I, well, I guess I can a little bit when I took Mary Beth in to the doctor her neurologist, I can still see him. And he said, you realize she will never sit up. She'll never roll over. She's never going to do anything. And so, and I was sitting there by myself hearing that and. You know, but I, I don't know what I did. I didn't do anything. I took her home and. That's crazy. Took care of her and, um, and your dad did a lot of this is, we need to do something. You can't take care of her. Uh, this is going to ruin you. We need to find some place for her to be that kind of talk. Yeah. That you don't keep us a severely disabled. Mentally and physically severely disabled. And so there was that going on a lot with him talking to me and I don't know at what point, and I don't know how I did it, but we found, uh, I'm sure I found it. A place that took care of, um, disabled and children. And I went out and visited, it was in Warren, Michigan. So it was a drive, but I went out and visited it and all of that. And then, um, she was accepted there, but he wouldn't go with me. So I was going to have to take her by myself to leave her. And one of our friends wives came with me. And I took her, put her down in her bed and unpacked her stuff and, and left her. God, I can't even imagine mom. I cannot even imagine. I think she was nine months old and you were 24. I was. And so where she was at, I would go and visit her all the time. And they also had a very strong parent group there. So I became involved in that and we did luncheons and we did all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Were they supportive? Was it helpful to you to be around these people?

strong parent group there. So I became involved in that and we did luncheons and we did all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Were they supportive? Was it helpful to you to be around these people? I guess. Yeah. Remember I've just associated. Yeah. Yeah. You're just going through the motions. Yeah. And, um, yeah, and she got PT, you know, lots of things. Well then, um, and involved one, I don't know when it was, but we did a fashion show and grand, your grandma and Diana and Chris, we all worked with me and we donated stuff and they all came and so family was supportive as much as they could be. Right. Right. Right. Um, they were, right. They were, they didn't, they were very supportive. They didn't shun you. No. And they didn't shun her. Uh, aunt doe and uncle Jim just loved her to death and took care of her a lot. Yeah. And uncle Jim worked for the Southfield police at that time and they did a, had some kind of thing going on and he put her name in and they did a charity thing for her. Yeah. So it was all, she was still part of the family. She was still part of the family. And then, and I don't know how or what this happened. And then she went out to, um, the beatings, the beat, Mary beaten angel on earth. Yeah. And she had her, she had a daughter that was horribly disabled and they took Mary Beth in. So it was in their home and she really lived in their home for a very long time. And then their daughter passed and it was time for them to go on with their life and their children were there. Are there regular children? Yeah. Normal children. I mean, it was the perfect, it was God sent. It was a God sent cause we weren't there. I didn't move back to Oregon. Yeah. We haven't gotten to that part yet, but yeah.

Yeah. Normal children. I mean, it was the perfect, it was God sent. It was a God sent cause we weren't there. I didn't move back to Oregon. Yeah. We haven't gotten to that part yet, but yeah. So the beatings that I, whenever I would visit my dad, I would not spend time at the, I would not spend times with my dad would take me out there to see Mary Beth and they were wonderful to me. Wonderful people. And wonderful family. The school that Mary Beth went to, um, was where Sue who takes care of her now was a teacher there. And so when Sue learned that Mary was not going to be taking care of Mary Beth anymore, Mary Beaton was not going to be then Sue, uh, set it up where she would take Mary Beth and we worked it out with your dad and I worked it out. And of course, because your dad was there, um, she interacted with him initially a lot, just for the basic things. And Mary Beth's been with her ever since. Right. Okay. So Sue took over from there. Right. And then she still takes care of Mary Beth to this day in her home. Yes. In her home. So what happened after, like, so you had Mary Beth as a part of the family. She's at, she's with the beatings now. Um, and then what happened? Then she went to Sue's. No, no, but I mean, in our life, like what the social, so yeah, Mary Beth, like Mary Beth settled. Mm hmm. So now it's just you and I at the house. Right. And we packed up your dad and I decided to divorce. Okay. So that's when you guys printed him about some stuff and that was the only avenue left to do. And so, um, we packed up, we sold the house. Um, and we started divorce proceedings. And you and I went to Oregon. So you went back to Oregon and then, um, but we didn't finish the divorce until the first of the next year

Um, and we started divorce proceedings. And you and I went to Oregon. So you went back to Oregon and then, um, but we didn't finish the divorce until the first of the next year for tax reasons, I think. Okay. So that would have been, I think 74 because we were married five years. And during that five years, I was pregnant the whole time, basically. Right. Where did we live when we went to Oregon? When we first came to Oregon, we stayed with grandma. Okay. In her apartment. Yeah. And then I got the, um, townhouse on Jennings Avenue. Okay. Where were, is that in Southeast Portland? In Milwaukee. Milwaukee. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where we live. And we spent almost every day with Judy. Your cousin, my cousin, Judy and her children. And that was our life. I have a question. Um, you said you moved back to Oregon and lived with your mom. Did she and your dad get divorced during that time? I don't think we talked about that. My mom and dad got, my mom and dad got divorced when they were in San Francisco. And they got divorced about the same time I did. And so I didn't talk to my own dad for, I don't think I talked to him for five or six years. Like out of anger. I did. Yeah. Because did he have an affair? No. You were just upset that he wanted a divorce of grandma. So you went through all this stuff with dad, the babies, the trauma. And then your parents got divorced while you were getting divorced. Just after around that time at 24. So I went through, I got through all of that stuff by the time I was 25. And then I went to like Kaya's age now. Yeah. Then I went, we moved to Oregon and if it hadn't been for Uncle Doug and Annie Judy, you know, I was, they really. Saved me. A lot of talking, a lot of just being there.

Yeah. Then I went, we moved to Oregon and if it hadn't been for Uncle Doug and Annie Judy, you know, I was, they really. Saved me. A lot of talking, a lot of just being there. And feeling supported. And, and having support with me, like I could be with Wendy and Jason, my cousins, and you could help me bring some normalcy into the home. Cause those are good memories for me. They should be. We did. It was a nice time. It was a great time. I remember we went and saw Greece. So how long, how long were we in Oregon before I saw dad again? Well, how did we do that? Initially you would see him. Initially I went with you and we would fly out and I see Mary Beth and the family and you'd see dad and we'd be out there a couple of weeks. Okay. And did we do that regularly? Yeah. And then did you end up getting a job in Portland eventually? Um, I didn't get a job until, well, let me go on. I was not working. I did not have to work. Okay. Dad was paying for alimony and stuff. Yeah. So I didn't have to work, but so my personal social, your social life was. Cousins. And then, um, we went to, um, nursery school, you went to nursery school and, um, just half day. And, um, my social life was going bowling with Doug and Judy on the CF bowling league and we'd go, I want to say it was Tuesday night and I'd take you up to Judy's house and the babysitter would be like a couple of doors down, little girl and she'd come and babysit you kids and Doug and Judy and I would go bowling. People were so nice to us, to me. I mean, they knew Doug and Judy and then we drink beer in the lounge afterwards. And it was just a great time. A lot of laughs. Yeah. Healing. For me. Cause I was a wackadoodle. Yeah. Yeah. So how long did that lifestyle go?

we drink beer in the lounge afterwards. And it was just a great time. A lot of laughs. Yeah. Healing. For me. Cause I was a wackadoodle. Yeah. Yeah. So how long did that lifestyle go? I don't know how long it went. Um, because you can't remember certain parts of that life, right? There are certain parts that I don't remember. I can remember things, but I don't remember when they happen. Right. So there's certain parts like in Michigan and stuff that I don't remember when it, I can't tell you, oh, it was June of 24 or 24th, 71 or something. I don't know. And there's some things I just, I just don't remember. Yeah. Yeah. That's part of the, they're blocked out. So while we were living in the townhouse there, I would fly down to visit with Pat and Joe, who were good friends of yours. Good friends of mine in California. They lived in California, but I met Pat. She lived in the apartment below your dad and I on Square Lake in Michigan. Oh, okay. So that's where we came from. I mean, our friendship came from, right? And she moved to California. I mean, life happened. Yeah. And so she, uh, married Joe and, but I would go down and visit them. Yeah. And I decided that, you know what? I was just going to move down there. Yeah. And this was Northern California. This is a Sunnyvale area. Yeah. Well, San Francisco area, San Francisco area, just south of San Francisco. So we packed up our stuff and, uh, took off and down with, there we went. I found a duplex to live in and you weren't working still. So this was just like, Hey, you need to change the scenery. Going to go live down by your friend, Pat, friends, Pat and Joe. Yeah. It was a horrible decision, but yes. And I was what, like three. Yeah. Maybe three and a half. Okay.

Going to go live down by your friend, Pat, friends, Pat and Joe. Yeah. It was a horrible decision, but yes. And I was what, like three. Yeah. Maybe three and a half. Okay. This is pretty Apple. Oh yeah. Apple space in Sunnyvale. Yeah. Before Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley was there, but it was just starting because I went to work. Well, so we got there and, um, I got a job as a receptionist at the company. Pat worked for. Yeah. And I put you in daycare. Yeah. And then, um, and life happened, you know, there was a lot of partying, a lot of, um, I wish I could do a lot of that time over, but, um, that's the way it was. And then I got another job with Amdahl, which was the direct competitor of IBM. So Mr. I don't know who started IBM, but he was working. He was one of the ones that worked on the first computer type stuff. Very nice man. But yeah, so I worked there and were we in the duplex still when you worked there? Yes, because, um, I hadn't met Rob. I had met Rob, but can we tell the story about the boyfriend? And the fire or not. You got us. Tell it now. Jeez. Yeah. Thank you. Well, we can edit out when I see these, the co-cares. Okay. We're not, we're editing that out. Co-cares. There's no co-cares. Um, so, so you met you were in the duplex. Yeah. And so I met people at Pat's work and I started going out at dating this one guy and, um, I don't know what he was into, but obviously nothing good. And then we had stopped dating and right. But then I started dating Rob. This other guy, this other guy. And Rob and I had been seen, been together for awhile. And then one night, um, the neighbor knocked on our door or called us. Called us and said, you've got to get out of the house. It's on fire. Well, the front door is on fire.

together for awhile. And then one night, um, the neighbor knocked on our door or called us. Called us and said, you've got to get out of the house. It's on fire. Well, the front door is on fire. I don't remember where else. I thought it was just the front door. Could have been. And, But he had put some gasoline or whatever under the bedroom windows too, but I don't think it had caught yet. Like my window and the guest bedroom had gasoline under it, but I don't think it had caught yet. Yeah. So, um, I jumped up and yelled at you to get up, get up. And you did. And I said, we've got to get out of here or whatever I would have said to you. Yeah. And you care. It came flying out of your bedroom with your little fishbowl in your hand. Put it back. You're not taking that. I grabbed the fish. Well, I remember the Swiss Swiss Swiss Swiss. It's just, I went down the hallway. Like we got it. It was tadpoles that day we had been at Rob's sisters and we as Gen X children were feral and we were in one of those like water pipes or whatever. And I got a bunch of tadpoles and I brought them home and they were in the fishbowl and then the house got on fire. So I had to save the tadpoles. Yeah. Yeah. So then, um, Rob, Rob was there. Rob got up and me and you and we're going down the hallway and we went towards the front door, of course, you couldn't open it. Yeah. So we went out through the back and my dog was out there. Yeah. I was barking and the fireman came and the fireman came in. They hit that house up on the roof. Lickety split. Yeah. And another night he threw rocks through the window. That was before that. Wait, I'm confused. I don't know who. Well, I don't think it was him. Who would randomly throw rocks. You had to go back to

rocks through the window. That was before that. Wait, I'm confused. I don't know who. Well, I don't think it was him. Who would randomly throw rocks. You had to go back to our, we was a duplex. We were in the back. The other guy was in the front. You had to purposely walk back to us. So, um, the house caught on fire from the previous boyfriend or. Yes. The previous boyfriend, but I don't know if it was him or somebody thought he was there. What was his name? Mark. No. Oh, okay. So it's not, it's irrelevant what his name was. Some dude. Yeah. But okay. I picked up on the fact that Rob, Oh, Dave, Dave, Dave. That's right. He didn't even convertible. But at this point, it's, it's the you two and Rob are living in this place. Yeah. It's not just you and Nicole. No, Robert moved in. Okay. Well, I don't know. I kind of glossed over the dinner. I think he was just sleeping over. No, I think he had moved in. So then eventually, well, we didn't move out of the duplex. Then I remember the door got fixed and all that. We stayed in the day there. It was smoke filled. Oh, okay. I don't remember where we went. When we moved over to that house, the one on black Hawk Lane. Yes. That was a nice house. Yeah. And somewhere in there, Rob and I got married. Yes. But I don't know when it was. They got married at the courthouse in Sunnyvale because I was in the wedding. Yeah. I was in like a hippie dress like a flower girl, like a very late seventies looking dress with a flower wreath in my hair or something. I don't remember. Yeah. And, um, it was very Northern California living during that time. Then afterwards, that was my first stepdad just to keep everyone. Was that your first wedding too? Or my first?

Yeah. And, um, it was very Northern California living during that time. Then afterwards, that was my first stepdad just to keep everyone. Was that your first wedding too? Or my first? No, I think I'd been to Armenian weddings, but that was my, my mom, the first wedding to my mom. Yes. I've been to. Yeah. Okay. I had such a boring childhood. So then we all lived together, right? You, Robin me all live together. And we're doing pretty good. And he got a job. Um, he worked at Intel and he got Tran. I wanted to move back to Portland because I felt that the pace of living down there was just too fast for family. And I couldn't handle it. I was moving too fast and I was trying to raise a daughter and I wasn't, I wasn't available. I wasn't doing a good job. The margaritas were flowing. They were flowing. So this one you had the grandma. No, she had a pacer, a yellow pacer. And Rob had a red Volkswagen bus. Yeah. Like 70. I don't know, but I didn't, I didn't, did I still have the pacer? Yeah. In Northern California. You did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember the gas lines when Carter was in office and I remember laying in the back of that pacer. There was no air conditioning. The windows are down a sweating in a gas line because I don't know what happened. That was in Oregon. Oh, was that. So the pace remained it to Oregon. I bought it and then we moved to California. Okay. So you moved back. We moved back. We moved back because I wanted to move back to Portland. I just needed to family there too. Yeah. And so we didn't move by them. No, that wasn't my draw. That wouldn't have been the decision to make apparently. Well, we didn't move by them because we moved by where Rob worked. Work. Right. And so we moved to Aloha out.

No, that wasn't my draw. That wouldn't have been the decision to make apparently. Well, we didn't move by them because we moved by where Rob worked. Work. Right. And so we moved to Aloha out. Was he still with Intel? Yeah. He, and he worked at Intel in Hillsborough. Yeah. So we were out. To there. Yeah. I've met this is the, for younger people, this is the beginning of the Silicon forest, where you had the Silicon Valley in San Francisco, but Hillsborough Beaverton Aloha was a hotbed for tech. It is still. Yeah. That was the beginning grown up. I mean, the farms are gone. Yeah. When we lived down in Aloha and all that, there was, there was nothing. It's where Nike is now. It was farms. Yeah. It was nothing. None of that was there. Intel was there. Cheap land. And this is when to swing back around, like this is where I was probably, I was first Alachiki kid, because I remember coming home to that house and that's where I would do the Gen X stuff of, you know, I had the key to let myself in, do my homework, clean the house, set the coffee up for the next day, all those things. And then you'd come home. I'd go out and play with friends. Oh yeah. You might've done that because Rob and I were in this little house and then Rob and I get divorced and, um, just loving it. You say it so casually. We got to work and then I had to go to work and I got a job at St Vincent hospital. Yeah. And that's when you became your latch key kid in that hospital wasn't that far from the house. Yeah. It was Beaverton, but yeah, not too bad. But not, I mean, it was just right there. Yeah. It really wasn't. It was far enough. Please anyway. And so that started my personal life at St Vincent hospital as a single mom, as

But not, I mean, it was just right there. Yeah. It really wasn't. It was far enough. Please anyway. And so that started my personal life at St Vincent hospital as a single mom, as a single mom, and I worked for the CFO and he was a single dad. And so he, he was really good as far as, you know, I need to go or I need to do this. He was really good. Very, very saucy. Then, right. I mean, when I worked at and all in Sunnyvale and you were sick or something, when I would have my review, I got written up because I was home because my daughter was sick. Yeah. That kind of stuff went on for women. Well, when you were, I guess in California, when you were entering the workforce, that was really when women were just starting to enter the workforce, right? And then through the eighties where there was the big working woman movement, women were working in the seventies because the women's movement was going on. You mean a different type of, like a more of a corporate job type of thing? Yeah. Moving into the corporate. No, I mean, in the seventies when you started doing it. I guess it was really, it was the seventies when you heard they were doing it, yeah, to help you with the timeframe. So in the seventies, when you did that, but when you were, but women were working, they were working, but that whole big woman's movement push really happened. The seventies and eighties go up through the. A career, a career. They were chasing a career. And when you and dad, um, first got divorced, I remember you telling me you that was, you could, I think women had just started, um, being able to get a credit card in their name at that time. That was out in Oregon. Yes. All the credit cards were in his name. And so I had no credit established.

just started, um, being able to get a credit card in their name at that time. That was out in Oregon. Yes. All the credit cards were in his name. And so I had no credit established. And so I got a credit card. I just couldn't believe it. And I got that pacer on my own. And, but that was around the time. I think you had said that women were just starting to get credit cards in their names and get bank accounts and their names so they could get credit that early mid seventies time, which is crazy. If you think about it, it would have been mid seventies, mid seventies is when women could get the credit card and get the bank account and their husband's name wasn't on the card or the bank account. That blows my mind. That's insane. And then you bought a car and I bought a car. That's why you love that car so much. Cause you did love that car. I did. I loved that car. It was bright yellow. Yeah. And so we lived that life and, uh, you know, I would, um, come home the last key kid and we, you were a single mom. And, but then from the time I was five, I would fly back and see dad. Yes. And so I was still seeing him, seeing him on Christmas, every other Christmas and in the summer and the summer for like six weeks or whatever. Um, and so we were humming along. And, uh, then you met somebody else. What numbers? Uh, this would be, uh, three, three. Who's counting? Yeah. Well, we're humming along and we moved from Aloha, uh, to the house on Parkway. And Beaverton. Yeah. And that's where you went to elementary, finished your elementary and junior high. And then I don't know quite how it happened. I think we'd gone up the river with Sharon up the river. That's what they call it. Nor get up the river.

finished your elementary and junior high. And then I don't know quite how it happened. I think we'd gone up the river with Sharon up the river. That's what they call it. Nor get up the river. Well, you know, where it was in the south on Mount state Hillands, but we called it going up the river up the river. And, um, which river? Like the Columbia? No, it would have been, um, like the most. Oh, maybe I don't know. The Washington side or the Washington Mount st. Hillands is in Washington. There's a lot of rivers there. Yeah, there are, but they just called. I don't know what that one river is called. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Not a big deal. Um, Oh, I probably did it one time. Um, st. Hillands had already blown by this point. Cause that was 80 when it blew. And this, we're in the early eighties. I don't think there would, you'd be going up the river post eruption. Cause it, you know, changed the landscape quite a bit west. Yeah. No, no, it went, we east, north and east. Okay. And this was on our side, the west side, but you know what? Yeah. Because st. Hillands blue and 80. I remember mowing the lawn and the ash coming up. I know. I just got a brand new lawnmower. Yeah. I don't think I was seeing punk. You weren't, I'm saying punk East post. Yes. By the way, his name is Greg in real life, but his nickname was punk and this would be number three. Okay. So anyway, we went up the river with Sharon and he was there because he has been sharing cousin Sharon. And he was there because he was a. Fireman housekeeper, not a housekeeper, but a. Took caretaker, a caretaker for this large lodge that was there. It was like a, uh, commu, like meaning there was multiple buildings. Yeah. And it had like a water. It was cool.

Took caretaker, a caretaker for this large lodge that was there. It was like a, uh, commu, like meaning there was multiple buildings. Yeah. And it had like a water. It was cool. It was very cool. Very cool. He lived in a trailer. Yep. On property. Nothing says husband material more than a trailer. He's a fireman. Yes. And, um, you guys hit it off and we hit it off and I can't tell you why. Well, I do know why, but I don't know that Mary should have been the answer to that. Right. But we did hit it off because he was very attentive. He, he, if I wanted to say, you know, let's go to the beach. Okay. So we'd go out and I'd say, Oh look, there's, there's a sign. And he says, yeah, let's see what's there. Wow. So that's nice. It was nice. And I'd never had that really. Yeah. Um, but then. Cause it was Rob, not like that. Did he give you more pushback? No. Rob was kind of in the drinking days. So he's just partied with you. You guys party. We party. The group we ran around with party. Yeah. So anyway, um, so you and punking did things together. We did things together. Um, but what would happen? Well, we did things together when you were with your dad and then you'd come home and life would, you know, get back to normal and that's when things would start falling apart, it was jealous of you. Yeah. And his children were jealous of me. And I was trying to keep all the ends together. I'd be at work and he'd call and say, she hasn't done anything. Okay. Do you mean like complaining about her? Yeah. She hadn't done the dishes. She hasn't done anything. Okay. Did you ask her to well, so I'd have to come home and say, would you please sit at the dishes or that kind of thing? Um, part of that was, I think he didn't

She hasn't done anything. Okay. Did you ask her to well, so I'd have to come home and say, would you please sit at the dishes or that kind of thing? Um, part of that was, I think he didn't want to overstep as a stepfather, but the other part was because he was an asshole. You can cut that out if you like. No, that's vintage. So he was he, but in some way he and I did click. Yeah. Um, and we would do like family vacations and stuff. And it's a lake chest on a boat, like a houseboat together. And Annie, Judy, and Uncle Doug. That was fun. Yeah. We went up to the world's fair in Vancouver. Yeah. Yeah, we did. Yeah. And the kids, his children and, and Nicole were very different. Although Nicole tried to get along with them, but they really were quite different. Yes. Were you guys close in age? I know. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I'd been over backwards trying to make them feel comfortable in our home. Had her room for them and anything we did, I included them. We bought, uh, I bought a lot of gifts at Christmas and just, but it just was. It sounds like, uh, you probably didn't get along with their mom. Well, right. That sounds like she didn't even know. I wasn't even in the picture. It wasn't even in the picture. He didn't get along with her. Yeah, obviously. But the kids were, yeah. And some of that stuff was me trying to create this. I think Punky did was like out in left field. He didn't even know I should do that in a way, you know, he was just so at any rate. So we hummed along and, and this is through, they got married when I was in eighth grade. So, excuse me. Um, just as a side note, they got married when I was in eighth grade and my dad also remarried my stepmom for the second time. And when I was in eighth

when I was in eighth grade. So, excuse me. Um, just as a side note, they got married when I was in eighth grade and my dad also remarried my stepmom for the second time. And when I was in eighth grade, you get a great pass. I love it. Yeah. So that was in Vegas. Um, and then Punky and my mom got married in our house on Parkway in the house. In the house. Yeah, it was actually, it was nice. Academy minister come. Yeah. And, uh, and then we moved to another house in Beaverton. Then we, yeah. And then that's through my high school years. Yeah. This Punky. I loved that house. That was a nice house. It was a nice house. That's the million. Yeah. Really was a nice house. Yeah. So, um, and so things come along, but then I believe there were things going wrong. And you were struggling and I was struggling with you and I was struggling with him. And one day I said, you know what? Cause we drank, cause alcohol was somewhere everywhere. That's wild because to this day you're not a drinker. No. So you, well, this is why. Um, but I was then I could, I could drink, but I said to him, Pat and Joe had given us like a case of this lovely Italian wine. And I think we drank it in a week, the whole case. And I was like, wow. I said, you know what? We're drinking way too much. So we had that little talk. Right. And I said, let's stop for a while. And he goes, okay. Yeah, that sounds good. I said, okay. But then after a week, I noticed that there was stuff missing out of the liquor cabinet, he couldn't stop. Yeah. And once you stop drinking, if you have someone who is drinking, drinking, it just corrodes things. And unfortunately my personality, I can go along not very long, but I can go along. But then once you cross that line,

someone who is drinking, drinking, it just corrodes things. And unfortunately my personality, I can go along not very long, but I can go along. But then once you cross that line, there's no going back. There's no, there's no going back. I'm done. And you need to leave. And that's what happened. Basically what happened? Yeah. And then you guys got divorced. We sold the house and got divorced. And then you and I moved out to a apartment in West. Oh, so far away. My senior year, pretty far away or junior year. I can't remember, but it was far away from your school. It wasn't really that far away, but it's the only place I could find that would take a dog. Like out 26. No, the other way down. No, like Beaverton's here or 26 is here. And it would have just been down one of these streets. I think it was tiger ended up towards Tigard. It took like a while to get to school. Driving. Yeah. But there were new apartments. It was a new area. They are building up. It was a nice area. So that was my senior, my senior open house was there. So, and then, um, and then after I graduated high school, I went to college and then you stayed in that apartment. Right. But then eventually you moved. I bought, um, this was another great decision I made Oregon city. Yeah. I bought a mobile home and moved to Oregon city, drove 45, 50 minutes to work. That wasn't a mobile home. Actually it was, it was more of a manufactured home. There is a difference. Hey, I think it gets wheeled in, but a mobile phone is like a trailer. I don't know. I think they're, they're about the same. It's like a prefab more so than a. No, but it sits on, it's sat on blocks. They wheeled it in. Yeah. It was a nice house. The, the, um, floor plan was nice. It was said. Yeah.

It's like a prefab more so than a. No, but it sits on, it's sat on blocks. They wheeled it in. Yeah. It was a nice house. The, the, um, floor plan was nice. It was said. Yeah. So yeah, she bought a manufactured house in Oregon city. Yeah. So, um, the only hard part part for me, I think you did it to be close to family. Cause our family lived on that side of the river at least. And then, but for me it was hard cause I came home, you know, from college and I wasn't at my home, my town to drive 45 minutes to see friends and stuff. But it was like being in a different city for you. Yeah. I didn't, it was like totally different. It was different environment. Totally. Completely. So, but that, you know, it's whatever. Um, but I think you enjoy living there. I did for a while. Yeah. And then, uh, it was a long, long drive. I don't know why I really did it. I mean, I, yeah, just making those decisions. I think, you know, I think being closer to the family was, I remember that being your dog and Judy were 20 minutes away. I remember that being your reason was you were close to the family and you were. And I was. Yeah. And you would come home and, um, I got a second job out at the dog track. Yes. As a paramutual clerk. Yeah. So I would work three, four nights and I would leave St Vincent hospital. Drive out to the dog, Greyhound dog park, which was way out in bike trout and work and then drive home to Oregon city. And that whole time for little karma was sitting in that house. Our dog. Our dog. Yeah. Then you finally, I was so glad when I took her to college and she enjoyed, she loved that. Yeah. I'm just having people. Oh my God. It just breaks my heart when I think about it. Yeah. But she, she, then I took her and she was fine.

took her to college and she enjoyed, she loved that. Yeah. I'm just having people. Oh my God. It just breaks my heart when I think about it. Yeah. But she, she, then I took her and she was fine. So, and then eventually, you know, um, Brian and I got married and you lived, we, moved back to Portland and had our first son Nathan and you were very involved grandma, but then we moved, we left Oregon and moved to New Jersey. And then eventually you moved to New Jersey and then you've kind of been with us, not living with us. You do now, but wherever we, some ways off and on until I get my feet established, I have. Yeah. You've kind of been with us and with the kids and, and would you say, um, cause well, everything we just talked about, uh, there's tons of ups and downs and it's fairly chaotic. Would you say that becoming a grandmother was healing for you? Oh yeah. Well, when you kids decided to get married, as you probably know, I wasn't in favor of it, not because I didn't like Brian, but I didn't want you to get married so early, right? We were 23. I wanted you to travel. I wanted you to do the things that I didn't get to do, which a lot. And, but you were determined. And so you did. Yes. I remember, I remember that you, you, it was hard for me to, I didn't know that. Yeah. She, she thought it, I fought it for quite a while mentally. She had you, did you know that? Did you guys talk and know that? Like, I think, yeah, sure. I did. Yeah. She wanted me to travel. She wanted me to have some youth before getting married because, you know, I think her whole experiences with marriage and children and all that were so dramatic that if I was in her shoes, I would have felt exactly the same way. You know, well, and you know, it's funny.

think her whole experiences with marriage and children and all that were so dramatic that if I was in her shoes, I would have felt exactly the same way. You know, well, and you know, it's funny. It's like when the kids will say, you know what, and even you have, you have said, well, what was the music like then? Or what's that going on then? Back in the sixties. Yeah. No, not in the sixties. Like when I was married to your dad. Okay. And I don't, I don't, so when I was in my early twenties, I, I wasn't listening to music. No. So I can't tell you, I mean, I was listening to music, but I wasn't like going to festivals or any of that stuff. Right. And my focus was not on music. It was survival on survival. Yeah. Such a shame too. Cause if I were you, I'd be going to dead shows in the Bay area. I would never have left. It was such a great time for music and a great, you were where it was happening. Well, if you're living in a very different shows, but I wasn't a dead head. No, I know. Yeah. But I think again, going back to, I think you handled it really well because we also got married in Vegas. So it was all, it was very much like we're 23 and we're getting married in Vegas. And it was all chaos. Coming from, you know, I'm essentially your only daughter and you did a good job controlling that cause that would have been, if it was me, I don't know. That would have been very hard for you to have that faith that it's going to be okay. Your marriage. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, I'm sure it was terrifying to some degree and you're probably concerned I was going to repeat. When, when, when did you finally become okay with it? Like five years in, was it when Nathan was born or yesterday? Yeah. You still have problems.

concerned I was going to repeat. When, when, when did you finally become okay with it? Like five years in, was it when Nathan was born or yesterday? Yeah. You still have problems. I think that, um, before you were married, I mean, I just think that I had to give up that dream for me, dream for her. And just like when I wanted to buy her beautiful, beautiful wedding dress and just, she went along with it to a certain degree, but really pushed back and that kind of stuff. So you, because her dress was very simple, right? It was custom made by a woman in Eugene, a hippie in Eugene. It was white velvet. Yeah. And you wanted something more traditional. Yeah. Oh yeah. I wanted it to be beautiful. I know. I know. She, our wedding wasn't the wedding. I like it though. I think it's full. Yeah. Yeah. I do too. I do too. But that's part of what I had to go through those processes. And then, you know, we had your bridal showers and that kind of stuff. And it just was then. Our, nothing we did that was traditional, right? Cause same with my, even my parents were more traditional. 100%. You know, they would have probably preferred, we got married in the church. Yeah. So we got married. Oh yeah. Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah. I don't think anyone was on board with the marriage except Brian and I. I don't think anyone was down about it. I mean, I will say my dad went full in though for me, for us, like as far as the venue, as far as everything, like he, you know, he even got a purple tux cause that was my color, you know, so, um, everyone went in on it once it was happening by the time that, yeah. Yeah. But I still think even people were like, what the heck, you know, what's happening here. But it was a wonderful wedding. Oh yeah. Oh my God.

happening by the time that, yeah. Yeah. But I still think even people were like, what the heck, you know, what's happening here. But it was a wonderful wedding. Oh yeah. Oh my God. It was so fun. The best wedding. So fun. And you guys then started your married little life and then you had Nathan and that was healing. Yeah. And, um, cause your dad wanted a son so bad. That's all he wanted. That's all he wanted. I mean, I grew up knowing that and it's funny cause when you grow up knowing that as a woman, as a girl, you feel then automatically like you're not enough because you're a girl. Right. And that's ingrained in you immediately. And I'm sure there's other girls that can relate to that, you know, cause I'm sure there's many, many men like that that are, you know, one a son and so badly when a son, there are, and it also as a wife that you, you couldn't give him a daughter's yes. Let alone that he's the one deciding the sex, but you know, but so Nathan was like, so when dad came out and saw Nathan, when Nathan was a baby, um, I don't know where you guys were, but we were sitting out on the deck at Jerry's parents house and he was holding him. And I don't know what I said to him. I, I just said, you know, it just, it was, I said, this just heals things. Doesn't it? And you go, yeah. Yeah. I remember when I told him I was having a boy and he said, you just fucking made it. Like he was just so, and he didn't say that, that stuff a lot like that, but that was, that was like a big deal. He, it was a big deal. It was a big deal. And, and I think for technical pops over here, but I think for all, you know, on the other side of the chaos, coming downhill. And then of course when Kaya was born, she, you know, he

And, and I think for technical pops over here, but I think for all, you know, on the other side of the chaos, coming downhill. And then of course when Kaya was born, she, you know, he just got such a kick out of her little personality. And then, and then, you know, he, in 2003, he died in a car accident. So he never got to meet Dylan and he would have just, I mean, having two boys would have been like everything, you know, and he would have gotten a kick out of him. So that's, you know, he would have. And fortunately he saw Kaya that November. Yeah. So I think he was out probably for her birthday or something. She turned three and he just loved her. He did. Oh, her person, he got such a kick out of her personality. So, um, I know they were healing for him, but for you to have, you've been able to be a part of that, you were there when Nathan was born literally. Yeah. You had one of my legs, but, um, watching them grow up and being so involved in their lives, um, has, I would assume has got to be, have healed some of that part of you. Oh yeah. And it's, and it's why I, I just couldn't live away. Right. I had to be closer. And, um, and it's also, you know, when I don't know how to explain this, but because of the trauma I went through at a young age, just as far as children goes and that you experienced too, and, um, that when people have children or it's a, a wonderful thing and like all birthday should be celebrated and you go all out. Yes. And we go all out. And some of that isn't just because we go all out people, although that's in there, yes, but it's because we know I know how precious life is and for children. So you see people, you don't probably, well, you know, that maybe they had a boy. A girl, they wanted a

yes, but it's because we know I know how precious life is and for children. So you see people, you don't probably, well, you know, that maybe they had a boy. A girl, they wanted a boy and I think, Oh my God. And you know, it's going to be okay because that's just that initial reaction for guys, but kind of are a woman. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I think that we, I grew up knowing this from the time I could understand it that if your child can walk, talk, see here, um, there's, that's it. Like there's nothing else, you know, and we know how precarious that is. And there's a high, there is a high chance that that won't happen. Not that if they can't walk or can't see or can't hear, there's anything wrong at all. I mean, those children can live very full lives and, um, our children of God and our loved just as much, but it's, it's understanding that that's all that's important. You know, the other part of it too, is that we didn't talk about this and there's not much to talk about when dad remarried or when dad married Sue, no Pat, whatever her name is, Pat, um, and they had a child had spina bifida. Yeah. And so it became very obvious where the broken gene was that it wasn't, wasn't you me, it was him. Right. To me, but it did matter to him and his family a lot. Of course. But then with that, I've always lived with what will happen when you have children. Right. What has been passed down. And then I think about my grandchildren and I think was that just past male to male? Or is it just, was just one of those fluke things for him and it wasn't past. Kaya and, and, um, what's the snow's Dylan don't have to worry about it. Yeah. But I still worry about that for them. Of course. And that's probably also a lingering part of your trauma too,

Kaya and, and, um, what's the snow's Dylan don't have to worry about it. Yeah. But I still worry about that for them. Of course. And that's probably also a lingering part of your trauma too, you know, but thankfully with the way met medical, the medical industry is now there's so many things you can do to know ahead of time, you know, I remember going to, uh, Kaiser, the genetic counseling when we first got pregnant. Yeah. And you were explaining everything and they're like, uh, they asked for pictures. Yeah. I don't think they'd seen, they didn't believe me. They didn't catch onto this genealogy at all. Yeah. I explained and they wanted me to bring pictures back of Andrea and Mary Beth. They didn't believe that. I think it was too big of a tail. And then when I did, they're like, Oh, but with all three kids, we had amniocentesis. It's just, you have to, when you go through something like that. So, um, you know, I, I know for the kid, the kids were also healing for me too, you know, having the kids. So they've, they are very symbolic, not just our children and we love them and your grandchildren and you love them, but of having a family of, yeah, because of everything you went through and everything you and I went through, they represent like your dreams and my dreams. Is that we were finally able to have that, you know, so that's why we go crazy with birthdays or if they do something or you go to every game or whatever, a lot of like in my family, it's been said to me in the way that my family says things. Maybe I don't want to say this, you can say it. We can edit it out. But, you know, it's like, well, do you think they want you there at every game? You know, maybe they'd want to, maybe you're overstepping.

say this, you can say it. We can edit it out. But, you know, it's like, well, do you think they want you there at every game? You know, maybe they'd want to, maybe you're overstepping. And so I thought about that and I thought, well, I don't care. Yeah. Which side of your family has that perspective? Like it was that I only have my mom or, well, I mean, more your mom or who, or do you not want to say, I don't want to say, okay, just her side of the family. Yeah. But I mean, it's, it's just how we are. It is. But your mom and dad were that way too, though. They went to everything. And so I think that that's a part of family life that I wasn't, I didn't know about even for my own family. I didn't know about. And I didn't know about growing up. It's really fascinating because for me, that is just the way it is. My parents went, I wanted them there. When I look at my cousins, it's that's how it was. That's just how it is. What's fascinating is the, we come from different worlds. What you're describing is just remarkable to me. I quote, my world was quote unquote normal, right? Yeah. But I mean, it's just proof it works out. Are you talking about you and me, like you and me coming from different worlds? Is that what you mean? Even what your mom's describing, it's not really in line with, I think what my parents went through in terms of their parents didn't get divorced. They had healthy children, thank God, or whatever, but, um, just very different. But it all works out. Right. It's just kind of keep plugging along and good things happen. I guess. By the grace of God and the kids again, I go back to the kids, the kids. Having our kids is truly what I know in a lot of ways, save my mom. And, um, healed me.

I guess. By the grace of God and the kids again, I go back to the kids, the kids. Having our kids is truly what I know in a lot of ways, save my mom. And, um, healed me. Well, um, you were there for Nathan, but you and I both got Nicole through labor, right? And then you were there for Kaya too. Not in the room. Not in the room. She wasn't, I came after, but a few days after. Oh, really? Yeah. She was like maybe five days old or six days. Okay. What about Dylan? She was here, but I wasn't in the room. Okay. Only in the room for Nathan. Okay. But she lived here. So she came in. So it was just Nathan. Nathan. She, because I think you guys want to just have you guys in the room for Dylan. Yeah. After we did it the first time, we're like, okay, we can do this. We also needed childcare. Yeah. True. True. We need somebody to watch. That's true. There were going to be somebody to watch. We need somebody to watch. Yeah. So, um, one thing we didn't touch on, we forgot one important thing is. Uh, you, there was, uh, you found something out when you got married about your dad. Oh, to throw this into the fun. Then, um, this was right. I feel like we've lost over certain, some of these things here. We have. Yeah. Um, when I decided to marry, right. And I was still in Oregon and, um, mom set me down. Dad was there too, but down and told me. That dad wasn't my real dad. That I had another father. Um, and she had me when she married dad, I was a little girl, a baby, baby, not a baby, baby, but yeah, little one. You already born. Yeah. Thank you. And that, um, they never told me. And the reason they didn't is because dad didn't want to deal with. That other family entering into this family, his family, he

Yeah. Thank you. And that, um, they never told me. And the reason they didn't is because dad didn't want to deal with. That other family entering into this family, his family, he wanted it just to be his family. And, but when I was younger, uh, my grandparents would come and pick me up and I would go out and stay with them. The biological grandparents, uh, paternal and stay with them for a day or two. But I was small, like I, uh, in a high chair age. Um, and they, mom said they loved me and they were heartbroken when they couldn't see me anymore. And, um, so that's when I found out that dad wasn't my biological dad. Well, I was 21. It's when I got married. So up until then, until you were 21, you thought he was your biological dad. Mm-hmm. And what was the decision in telling you at that point? You know, I don't know, maybe because I was going on to my adult life and, and I think mom had wanted to tell me. Maybe I don't really know the answer to that. So she had married Mr. What was his name again? Winter. Winter divorced. Mr. Winter had a little fun fun. Yeah. Had you. Yeah. And then married grandpa all within like a year to two, two years. I think I was, I was probably 18 months or something. Like a couple of years. And she was young cause she was 18 when she had you. Yeah. She just turned 19 and she had me in October and in January she turned 19. Okay. So that, and then you got married. Yes. And then I got married. And then when I got divorced, when I was staying, we were staying at grandma's house, apartment, she, she and Anna Jean, and I don't know how they did it, but they kept in contact with people that knew his name is Russ. Russ. You're a real dad. And she had gotten ahold of him and said, you know, we were there.

and I don't know how they did it, but they kept in contact with people that knew his name is Russ. Russ. You're a real dad. And she had gotten ahold of him and said, you know, we were there. And she'd really like him to meet me. And so he came over one day and I can remember he walked in the house and I thought, Oh my God, I look just like him. Wow. It was such a strange feeling. And it really was. I was just like, Oh, I do come from somewhere. Cause I'm so different than my siblings. You are. Yeah. You're blonde there, brunettes. That's right. And personality is totally different. It's genetic. It's just different. So he held you on his lap and we sat and visited and we liked some of the same things. And I, I was just like, wow. And, but he turned to mom and he said, you know, why did you send me away that day and mom didn't really answer him. So I don't know why she did. Cause I think he wanted to stay. So he wanted them to be something, wanted them to be together. So that, so when he left, he said, I'll talk to him. I think her name's Mary and I'll get back in touch with you. His wife. And mom said that his wife never believed that I was his and was always part of the reason why there was no contact for him. And they have a daughter, her name's Debbie. And he said, I'll talk to Mary and I'll be talking to you. And I never heard from him again. Wow. That's crazy. And I was the baby. So you were like little 25, 26 when all this. Yeah. So then I don't know what the timing was, but we went out to visit. Mom took me out to visit his dad. His mother had passed away and his new wife and they were older. But he was one of the ones, he was the one who took care of you when you were little who came and picked you up.

His mother had passed away and his new wife and they were older. But he was one of the ones, he was the one who took care of you when you were little who came and picked you up. So we got there and, um, he was kind of standoffish and he said to mom, he says, what is it you want? Cause there'd been no contact. Yeah. And mom said, I don't want anything. I just wanted Dana to have the opportunity to meet you. And his wife, I don't know her, what her name was or is. Um, she had a box of pictures, uh, from when I was a baby, cause we didn't have any pictures of me when I was a baby. Right. And then some of his daughter Debbie, you can't tell us apart. Wow. Yeah. Did you ever meet Debbie? I don't think she even knows I exist. Would you ever pursue that? I haven't. I forgot my ear. Um, I haven't. Judy's and I've talked cousin Judy, cousin Judy. Um, I think, no, I never did. I never did pursue it. And she said, Judy, cousin Judy said, you know, why don't you? And I said, well, she slipped all her life and doesn't know I exist. And her Russ never called us back. Yeah. And I don't want to back then. I don't want to go in and start chaos in her family, whatever her family may be. But I know she got to go to college cause she was a teacher. Oh, you know, what's interesting is, um, when did you find out that you had a sister you didn't know about when you found out about Jennifer? That was kind of a gift to you in many ways, right? Yeah. It was awkward, but I found out about Jennifer right after. So my dad had, um, his, his best friend who was a girl, um, and him ended up, um, yeah. She got pregnant. I think they were what 16. So they lived kitty corner from each other. Yeah. They lived kitty corner. I didn't know about her

who was a girl, um, and him ended up, um, yeah. She got pregnant. I think they were what 16. So they lived kitty corner from each other. Yeah. They lived kitty corner. I didn't know about her till just before you did. You didn't know that after we were married, I found out after we were married, after we were married, I found out my dad had, um, a relationship with his best friend and she had gotten pregnant. And my, the story I've been told is that my, his, my grandfather didn't approve. Um, they were Polish, I think, or something and, but not Armenian. And, um, so she actually ended up marrying his other best friend. The three of them were best friends, I think. And that's who her dad is. Is he's a wonderful man who raised her and, um, married her mom and all that. But I found out about that. She even existed when I was 23, uh, literally months after a few months after we got married, maybe I was to just turn 24. And he called me up one day, my dad did and said, Oh, did I ever tell you about, so casually, I remember that. Casually. Yeah. And I, I, at first I was, I was crying. I was, when you came home, I was upset just because it was, well, there's my story as a whole nother story, but there's a lot with my story. So this was another thing with my story. But, um, I ended up calling her. I don't remember when, and we were on the phone for I think four hours. It was like, it was like you, you describe like, um, she was my sister. Like she, we like the same things. We talk the same. We, I don't know. I can't describe it, but she's my sister. I always send you just all of a sudden I know it's like a puzzle piece. So, and then we ended up seeing each other, meeting each other for the first time, um, when Chico and Chico,

I always send you just all of a sudden I know it's like a puzzle piece. So, and then we ended up seeing each other, meeting each other for the first time, um, when Chico and Chico, California, that's where she lives. And it's, uh, Nathan, Kaya was like three or four. This would have been, um, like over 20 years ago, but we haven't seen each other again since. And I, it's on my bucket list. I really want to see her and spend some like a weekend with her and just really, you know, reconnect and we're friends on social media. So we followed, you know, we're involved in that way, but, um, not the same, but a similar surprise, you know? And I was just thinking about it. You know, I wonder if though your sister would, the other, the other, the full claim is she would maybe be happy to know she has a sister. So it's a risk. It's a gamble. Well, it is a risk. And you know, I'm old enough now. She would be younger than me, obviously, but I don't know by how much. Yeah. But still it's like, it's a risk, you know? Yeah. But you would have to go through one of those, um, things where you, the genealogy, what, uh, you know, the ancestry.com or something like that. But you would, she would come up, her family would come up. I would think so. Yeah. Yeah. So that could be another exciting adventure in your life. But the good news is, is through everything you've gone through, especially in your early twenties, if you really think about everything you went through. With dad, with the children, finding out your dad is not your biological dad, getting divorced and your parents getting divorced all by the time you're about 25 years old, it's a miracle that you were able to continue on in the way you were and marry other people.

getting divorced and your parents getting divorced all by the time you're about 25 years old, it's a miracle that you were able to continue on in the way you were and marry other people. So when you, and marry other people. So when you ask me, well, what do you think? And I say, Oh, about a guy. Yeah. And I say, yeah, I'd have coffee with him. Yeah. But I'm not interested. Yeah. You're done. I'm done. You've been done for a while. Done for a long time. And in a lot of ways, it's unfortunate that I didn't have the wherewithal to go to counseling and get some of this resolved so that I could have been. Had a relationship and a more normal life for you and me. Right. But I didn't. Yeah. And, but I think part of that could be also part of the boomer generation. I don't know if your gen, your generation was not raised. My generation wasn't raised with mental health being discussed. Your generation certainly wasn't. You just fail forward. You just keep moving forward. Yeah. And no, definitely it wasn't. It wasn't. It was not. It was. No, it was looked down upon, you know, and honestly, a closet secret in a family. Yes. Yeah. So even if you would have attempted, cause I think we did attend therapy a little bit, but it would just, if you would have gone, it would have had to have been intense therapy. It would have. Unpacking a lot. Yeah. And so that would have required guidance and support. Yeah. And the one therapy we did do you and I did with that therapist and I went on my own. Yeah. Up until I talked with him before that, since I had Mary Beth, anytime I spoke about her, my body would shake and my, I would just shake. Yeah. And, um, I can't tell you what my insides felt like. And then when we went to that therapist

anytime I spoke about her, my body would shake and my, I would just shake. Yeah. And, um, I can't tell you what my insides felt like. And then when we went to that therapist and then I spoke with him from that point on, I never shook again. Yeah. I don't know what he said to me, but he acknowledged something and, and of course it's PTSD or yeah, PSTD or whatever. PTSD. No, it's what it is. I'm sure that he, um, validated something that you needed validating because made it. Okay. Yeah. He made something where I didn't, oh my God. It's shake so hard. Well, they say that if you're, if you don't deal with something with your mind, your body will deal with it. So yeah, either you're going to deal with it or your body's going to deal with it, but it's going to get dealt with. Have you ever thought like, do you, can you think of say what maybe the root causes are the first memory of that trauma? Was it, was it the first child or it has to go deeper, right? In your own childhood, you have, you know, kind of peeling back an onion here, I guess. And, but you know what I mean? Well, yeah, I don't think it in my own childhood, I think there are a couple of things in there. Like I, I don't do confrontation. I'm not, I don't do confrontational. Also, when people argue, I get upset inside. Um, so do we trigger you at times? You have. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And not that it's not okay, but there it just, and also, um, the other part, uh, I have is, um, um, what do you call it? Like dreams or repressed memories or, um, being, um, not wanted, um, abandonment, abandonment. And I think that abandonment issue probably goes back into my childhood somewhere that it started often does. I think I do too. And as I said, we moved and then we moved

abandonment. And I think that abandonment issue probably goes back into my childhood somewhere that it started often does. I think I do too. And as I said, we moved and then we moved and I was a shy child and it was really difficult for me and I didn't really come into myself where I until. Until I, quite frankly, or even once we started having kids and you started healing there, I think in some ways, like we just talked about, right? Yeah. I remember your dad said to me one day, Oh, it was at his birthday party. I think his last birthday party, we were at a restaurant and it was down the stairs. Him and my uncle Tom. Yeah. Yeah. And I was sitting there and he was sitting there. And, um, he said to me, he said, I know sometimes that you don't feel like you're part of this family, but I want to tell you that you are, and we're glad you're here. I'm so touched. And that's really sweet. And I thanked him obviously, but he was, he was very, uh, intuitive, intuitive. Yeah. Cause I did feel that often cause I didn't know what to do with it. Yeah. I didn't know it's not that I didn't like anybody or anybody did anything. I just didn't know what to do with all this family stuff. Yeah. Because your only exposure to that type of cause the Armenian family is very lively and big and all that, but you're, you have so much trauma wrapped into that. There's so much trauma wrapped into it. So Brian's family, which is Irish Catholic and I'm also from West Virginia. Um, it's big, it's loud. There's a lot going on. That could be very jarring. It's like West Virginia is its own thing. Well, I mean, there's, there's Irish, there's English, there's German, there's West Virginia. Well, I mean, like your mom's Irish

It's like West Virginia is its own thing. Well, I mean, there's, there's Irish, there's English, there's German, there's West Virginia. Well, I mean, like your mom's Irish Catholic, your dad's from West Virginia. Let me be clear. Yeah. But there's, when you go to West Virginia, there's a lot of family. And when you're in New Jersey, there's a lot of family. So, and that can be jarring for someone that's not used to our family. Wasn't like that. Our family. Yeah. My exposure to that was my Armenian family. But that was very much like that. But that was sporadic. That was summers and every other Christmas and some weddings. But of course that was a draw to me too. Of course. Cause you wouldn't realize this. But, but yeah, I just didn't know what to do with painful. Yeah. Yeah. Because our, because in Oregon, it's more, it's a more quiet family. It's a more quiet experience. Yeah. So it's just, it's different, but that was, that was sweet. He said that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that if you take everything into account, it, to see where, like Brian kind of just touched on it, I think your real role was grandmother. I do. I think that was the, the healing role for you and the one where you probably. Finally could just enjoy, stop and enjoy and not be struggling or not be trying to figure something out or not be trying to fix something or trying to create. Um, something, it was created then finally it was there. It was. And in a bra in ways, I probably can't even really describe. I just know that Nathan and Kaya were at the age where they were moving away from me and then you popped up with Dylan and I can remember thinking, Oh my God, my grandkids are moving away from me. What am I going to do? I mean, it was a natural move.

me and then you popped up with Dylan and I can remember thinking, Oh my God, my grandkids are moving away from me. What am I going to do? I mean, it was a natural move. It was the way it was supposed to be. Physically moving, just like growing up, growing up. Yeah. Oh, well we did. We physically moved. We lived in Oregon. No, no, but she's talking about now, like when Dylan right before Dylan was born, they were getting older and not needing her as much. Yeah. In the same way. Yeah. So then I can remember feeling anxious about that really anxious. Cause my identity is tied into, you know, being a grandma. Anybody I work with, they only know me as. Grammy D. That's yes. Grammy D. That's what we call it. You know, us Grammy D more than Dana. Yes. And so then when you called and told me you were pregnant with Dylan, obviously it was like, Oh my gosh. But I was so. Yes. You were very happy about that. I was. Yes. The other baby is going to save me. That's hilarious. Yeah. And I'm sure I, I don't know if I've ever asked you this before, but, um, does seeing Brian and I have been married 30 years now and together 32 does seeing me have a long longevity and a successful marriage. It means the world to me. Yeah. Yeah, it does. Yeah. And that, and that I wouldn't want either one of you to go through. A marriage being split up with children and with, I just would not, it just, yeah, it's just awful. Yeah. And seeing that there's, um, a man that can be a good husband and a good father. Deal with your byproducts. Nice. But that can, that is a family man. Well, obviously he's let me live here with you guys. Yeah. I mean, my life would be so different. Yeah. So I think that's touching on what I was saying earlier. It just works out.

Well, obviously he's let me live here with you guys. Yeah. I mean, my life would be so different. Yeah. So I think that's touching on what I was saying earlier. It just works out. It, you know, your background burst, my background, it's totally different. Right. And, and it's just worked out. She's been married for 30 years, three beautiful, healthy, wonderful kids, you know, so it's, it's, it's worked out. Yeah. Well, thank God. Yeah. And, and for you too, you know, it's what's interesting is to me is with the having grandkids, if you think about your grandparents style, it's probably different than any other aspect of your life and that you give them unconditional love and where you probably don't have time or patience and other aspects of your life, right. But you give your grand children unconditional love and they feel it. They know it. And so it's an interesting dynamic, I guess. But I think that happens to all grandparents because you'll see people say, I don't know who this person is, but my kids get everything they want. But when I lived with that person, it was not like that at all. Yeah. But it's like when Nathan was born, it's just, there's just something about having it be your child's child. Yeah. That it touches your heart in a different way. You love them in a different way. Yeah. And yeah, I can't wait. Everyone knows that I have, I have all these toys in a storage unit for my grandchildren. We pay a monthly fee for this. I'm not getting rid of them. So no, we got rid of them once. And then I got pregnant. All those hot wheels. No, no, don't even bring up Nathan's Pokemon cards. I do have a question. Um, have you ever thought of this? This is everything we just talked about. There's a lot of

All those hot wheels. No, no, don't even bring up Nathan's Pokemon cards. I do have a question. Um, have you ever thought of this? This is everything we just talked about. There's a lot of trauma, fascinating stuff. Quite frankly, have you ever thought of trying to peel back the onion further at all? Like, you know, we probably opened up some wounds here. You know, have you ever, have you thought of jumping into some of those and going down those rabbit holes and finding some answers? Nicole's talked to me about that, that I should do that. Or I should think about doing that. And yeah, I have. I don't know what, I don't know what it would change in the sense that I have a wonderful life now and I'm around people I love. And I have, I mean, even through all the moving, I have friends here that even though I'm retired, I've still maintained their friendship and my St. Vincent group, when I go to Oregon, those women I'm still close with. I don't know what it would change. Yeah. Other than my own anxiety. Like, and thinking, okay, Dylan shouldn't be. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And that comes from my anxiety. Yeah. You know, because I know he's old enough to be doing that, but still. Yeah. But I'm, I'm better than I was. Yes, you are. I am lots better than I was over that, but. That's a great answer. That answer makes perfect sense. Yeah, I don't. What's it going to, you know, kind of at peace. I mean, I think the only thing it would help is probably anxiety. But if you're able to manage it, then. You know, I get migraines. Yes. Your body's your body's. It's often though, do you? Yeah, I get, I just not where I'm sick like that, but I'll lose my vision and that kind of stuff. So I get the migraines unexpectedly every

Yes. Your body's your body's. It's often though, do you? Yeah, I get, I just not where I'm sick like that, but I'll lose my vision and that kind of stuff. So I get the migraines unexpectedly every couple of days, I'll have something. And I know that's my anxiety. Yeah. So I mean, it's pretty, I think the anxiety is pretty serious because your body is dealing with it and you, and that's been most of your life. So, but you know, it's, it's, you have to pick and choose, you know, if it's worth that you for you to unpack everything, would it make you feel better physically with the migraines go away or, you know, or if it's not even worth it. But I don't know that that's worth it. Yeah. And, um, yeah. Well, you know, they do these guided, uh, psychedelic. Type of therapy sessions, trips in a sense. I'm not even kidding about those. She's already done her, uh, Northern California trip in her life. So no psychedelics. Yeah. Well, listen, we can't thank you enough for sharing because we know you don't talk about this stuff. And, um, it's not easy for you to talk about. And so we thank you so much for sharing it with us for getting it. Um, recorded for our children and their children and future generations. And for our audience who I'm sure there's someone out there that has been through something similar that this will help them, or they at least think, Oh, okay. I'm not the only one. Yeah. You know, and, um, that's really the main reason, one of the main reasons we do this, we're doing this podcast is to reach people and hopefully help people or help people, or, you know, of course we want it to be entertainment and enjoyable, but in situations like this, you know, we're chronicling something. We're chronicling something.

people, or, you know, of course we want it to be entertainment and enjoyable, but in situations like this, you know, we're chronicling something. We're chronicling something. And so we, and, and also you're, you're our first boomer that we've interviewed. And so we thank you for representing the boomer contingent here. I'm sorry, but the story was a little, uh, no long and, and unusual. Unique people have unusual lives. Yeah. They do. They do, you know, and it's worth talking about and sharing. And, um, you know, I think that overall we're all interested in each other and connecting in some way. So I, again, we completely respect that you shared this with us today. And thank you so much. And it was a great week to do it on Thanksgiving, you know, to, to remember also what we're so thankful for. Nathan, Kai and Dylan. And a wonderful son-in-law. Oh yes. And you're wonderful son-in-law. So, and thank you to our listeners for, um, listening. And if you have any comments, questions, or anything you'd like to share, we always love to hear, and, um, we will see you next time. Thank you. Take care. Bye.