Episode 13 - GenX Speaks Series - Nicole's Story

[Music] Welcome to GenX Adulting. We took a little bit of a break between Thanksgiving and Christmas as a lot of people do. And we were busy with all the holiday preparation, so we're back at it. And today is going to be the first in our series of GenX Speaks, where we interview different GenXers about their life story. We also have the Gen Z and the Boomer Speaks? Well, no, we have the Gen Z women's series. Okay. And then we have the Boomer series. Okay. And GenX Speaks is called that because typically GenX has been known to not share much about their life. We're stay to ourselves, you know, don't bother others, don't get involved in things, live our lives, and help if needed, but we kind of mind our business and we're not really out there sharing. So this gives a platform to GenXers to actually share maybe for the first time ever their life story. And today I think we're going right in, right? Right in on you. Yes, I'm going to be the first in the GenX Speaks series. We're going to, I'm going to share my life story. All right. And I will say that it would be helpful to the listener if they listen to the episode that's before this one, which is my mom's episode. So I would either listen to that episode before you listen to this episode, or I would go back and listen to that episode when you're done with this one, because it will give so much insight into the background of what I'm speaking about. It does parallel a lot of what I am going to speak about. And I think it would just, the listener would find it very interesting. So before we jump into, say, the chronological order of your life, have you thought about that episode a bit? And has it helped drive to want to go down this path or what are your thoughts on that whole episode?

chronological order of your life, have you thought about that episode a bit? And has it helped drive to want to go down this path or what are your thoughts on that whole episode? Well, reflecting on my mom's episode, I have so much admiration for her and what she shared, especially for the boomers. They're not. They don't talk a lot about, they don't go and get into the deep layers. Yeah. They stay very surface because that's their generation. That's how they were raised. And again, mental health wasn't really discussed for them. Therapy wasn't a big thing, but it doesn't come naturally to them to dig down into the layers. So I really commend my mom for doing that because she went really deep. She shared a lot of intimate things that happened in her life. I found it very riveting. And so I'm very grateful to her for sharing that. As far as did it trigger me to want to share my life? I think it was kind of like, you know what, she did it so I should be able to do it too. You know, if she was brave enough to share her story, then I should also be brave enough as well. But it does take courage to share stuff, especially when it's my background. There's going to be some pretty crazy things that y'all are about to hear. And so it takes some courage to put that out there. And my motivation behind it is that I think that there's going to be others that will be able to relate to some of what I share. And as always, I hope it helps make even if it's one person not feel so alone in either what they went through in their childhood or what they're currently going through. So everything we share is to connect people so people feel seen, whether you're a listener or whether you're a guest. Seen and heard. And I also try to tell, especially our

So everything we share is to connect people so people feel seen, whether you're a listener or whether you're a guest. Seen and heard. And I also try to tell, especially our daughter, we actually just were having a conversation about sticking up for yourself and maybe your past self. And so for me, this is honoring my past self and especially the child that I that I was. You know, I feel that she deserves for her story to be told, if that makes sense. Who's your mom's or my my child, my inner child. Oh, you're okay. Yeah. Yeah. The child that I was. Yeah. You know, I think that, you know, she deserves a voice. Yeah. All right. So let's get into it. So when and where were you born and your parents? Well, again, so a lot of my parents stuff you will hear if you go and listen to my mom's episode. But I was born in 1971. I was born in Pontiac, Michigan. My parents met in Kansas City when my dad was in medical school and my mom was a flight attendant. He's Armenian. My mom is white as white as white. I think she's German. She's blonde, blue eyed and my dad's very dark. They got married in Michigan in Dearborn, I believe they started their family and their first baby died. She only lived, I think I thought it was 12 hours. But if I think back to my mom's episode, I think she said it was either 24 or 48. I can't remember. But she was basically born without a completed school. I was her neural tube, I think. Now they'd call it neural tube defect. But other things were going on. So she was born March 10th. And then I was actually born exactly a year later on March 10th. So and I was fine. I was healthy. And then 11 months later, my sister Mary Beth was born. And she also had mental and physical disabilities. She was an encephalic.

year later on March 10th. So and I was fine. I was healthy. And then 11 months later, my sister Mary Beth was born. And she also had mental and physical disabilities. She was an encephalic. She basically wasn't expected to live. They did a surgery where they did have to remove part of her brain. And I don't think that anyone thought she was going to make it. And she did. But her quality of life, there's really nothing there. I mean, it's like almost like a baby and the mind of a baby in an adult body at this point. Ironically, she's healthy as a horse. But so I would say the first baby was the beginning of my parents' marriage cracking. And then I was born and there was hope. And then Mary Beth was the nail in the coffin of the marriage is not going to survive. I think at the time it was assumed that the issue was with my mom. And my mom did end up while they were in this process of the marriage kind of falling apart, and she did have an abortion because of the utter trauma. Because I remember this at all happened before she was even, I think, 24 years old or 25 years old. So there was a lot going on. And so when I think back to my childhood and how it started, I would say I started in fight or flight probably one, one and a half, because when they brought Mary Beth home, the trauma would have been in the home, right? And then the downfall of the marriage would have been in the home. So even when you're little, you're still absorbing that energy of what's going on between your parents. If there's a child that's needing extra care and all that, your mom is still in. And she's in a state of trauma and the child is going to absorb that. My mom was miraculous and did the best she could. So she didn't do anything wrong.

care and all that, your mom is still in. And she's in a state of trauma and the child is going to absorb that. My mom was miraculous and did the best she could. So she didn't do anything wrong. It's just that it's a result of the circumstances. So well, I chuckled just because that's so insane in some respects. And that we can talk in those terms today. But back then there was no concept of your child's experiencing trauma because your marriage is falling apart. There's tension, right? Right. Just wasn't acknowledged. No. And the world's advanced enough to where you can talk to it, talk about it in those terms, but it wasn't like that. You've come to that discovery, I guess. And we'll kind of get there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Especially back in 1971, 72, 73. Absolutely not. There was none of that. Yeah. So they ended up getting divorced. Before the divorce, my mom had found a place to take care of Mary Beth because she needed 24 hour care around the clock. And so they found a really great place. My dad was always strong about he would never put her in an institution or anything. It was a it was a safe, good place, good quality place. So Mary Beth went there and my mom took me and moved back to Oregon where I'm from, where my mom's from, I should say. She went back to Portland where she's from, where her side of the family is. And we I think for those few years, from the time I was probably two and a half to five, maybe, I think my mom was in complete survival mode. I do think she had a nervous breakdown during those years because there's parts of those years she can't remember. Just for those couple of years, I think it was she was obviously traumatized. Yeah. And thankfully, my Annie Judy and my Uncle Doug got her through that.

of those years she can't remember. Just for those couple of years, I think it was she was obviously traumatized. Yeah. And thankfully, my Annie Judy and my Uncle Doug got her through that. Well, traumatized in a fight for survival as a single mom. Yeah. In a time and period where being a single mom, I'm not saying it's easy today. I'm definitely not saying that. Right. But there's probably more resources. There's more understanding. There's more of a system around supporting that. But when you guys are doing it, I don't think those institutions existed. Not like they do now. No, not at all. So we had family and that's who my mom relied on. And they were wonderful. And I spent a lot of my time with my cousins, Wendy and Jason. And so that was the survival period. And then during that time when my mom and I were kind of my mom was trying to pull her herself together. My dad married my stepmom. So they got divorced. My dad married my stepmom pretty much right away, I believe. Do you have memories of feeling like you were surviving too? Or are you really more defining probably the experience your mom was having? Because I don't have thoughts of surviving as a kid. But did you was that part of your psyche or existence? I think I was very young that, like I said, I think I was in fight or flight. But I don't I can't consciously tell you at that those at the two and a half to five year mark, I can't consciously tell you of anything specifically traumatic, except there's a feeling of stress. Like when I think I feel the stress, I can't tell you what it is. So I just think it was a feeling of stress. I saw my dad sporadically during those years. I think he came out maybe once and then my mom, I think, would fly back to Michigan to bring me to see him.

think it was a feeling of stress. I saw my dad sporadically during those years. I think he came out maybe once and then my mom, I think, would fly back to Michigan to bring me to see him. And she mentioned that. Yes, she would. We would go back still during this time when she's trying to pull together. She's also still having to go back to the place of where the trauma happened so my dad can see me. So it's almost like she probably would take two steps forward in her life and then two or three steps back repeatedly for those couple of years. What's interesting is when you've told me your background over the years and different stories, it was you would fly back by yourself. No, no, we're not there yet. No, I know. I don't think until she brought it up. I don't know if that was was that part of your memories? Was that news to you or did you remember that? No, I mean, I knew I kind of knew we must have gone back because it's not like he wouldn't have not seen me for two years or whatever. So I think I knew theoretically we must have done that. I don't remember flying with her, but she obviously was doing it. So think about the state she must have been in flying to Michigan, you know, and I'm sure when we were there, she probably saw Mary Beth. Yeah, she mentioned she did. Right. Yeah. So it's in his sisters and cousins or whatever his side of the family, which was what I found interesting when she talked about it. And you'd mentioned it before, but she's it's the Armenian culture is very strong. She was not part of it. So she was part of it. And then you guys left and then she'd go back into it. And I don't know if she was. She just wasn't part of it. Well, I think there was there was so much trauma.

So she was part of it. And then you guys left and then she'd go back into it. And I don't know if she was. She just wasn't part of it. Well, I think there was there was so much trauma. You know, think about it. There's trauma for the whole family, right? There was probably trauma when Mary when the first baby was born. That's your first one losing a child is utterly and horribly traumatic. So my grandparents had to go through that. Yeah. My dad's sisters and brother. Yeah. His aunt, you know, everyone had to go through that. So then I'm born. So everyone had hope again, not just my parents. Right. And yes, in the Armenian culture, especially children are you know, you get married, you have children. That's it's very much celebrated. It's a it's a value. It's a wonderful value. But and then when Mary Beth was born, you know, I think that just was so heartbreaking for the whole family. Took the air out of the balloon. Everything. And especially for them knowing my dad had to go through that. I think at the time, you know, it was thought that it was probably an issue with my mom. So I'm sure her going back, you know, you've not you're not I don't think they ostracized her at all. They always were good to her and loved her. But who knows what was going on during that time? You know what I mean? So she was constantly probably reopening a wound. Yeah. Yeah. Keep in mind, like I said, my parents got divorced and he married my stepmom. Yeah. So she's going back and he's starting a new life with someone else. Right. And we didn't really touch on that because, you know, she that wasn't her story to tell. But that was going on. Right. Well, when he married my stepmom, my mom had a son from her first marriage who I think was like one when we're one and a

story to tell. But that was going on. Right. Well, when he married my stepmom, my mom had a son from her first marriage who I think was like one when we're one and a half or something when my dad entered his life. So he is he my dad is his dad. Yeah. And they're very, you know, like I think he might have ended up adopting him. But so she had her son from her first marriage. And then my dad and her had a child who was born mentally and physically disabled. Yeah. And Andrea. So I think for my dad, then he knew it wasn't my mom. Yeah. And I think for him, it probably destroyed him. Right. So how do you come back from something like that? Yeah. I don't know. And I don't think you ever come back with some from something like that. And even though he was older than my mom, he was like almost five years older than my mom. He was still young. Yeah. He was in his late 20s, early 30s when this was going on. So he was still a very young man. So it warped him to it warped my mom. It warped him. And I'm sure it warped my stepmom. Right. Because she probably thought she's about to have this glorious life. And she loved him and he's a doctor and things are gonna be wonderful. And then this happened. So everyone got thrown for a loop. So that was going on. They ended up divorcing. And I think there's very few marriages that survived stuff like that. But once I hit five, I was able to fly back alone to see him. And he would fly me back first class. And back then, first class, you got a tray with food. And you even got these little crystal. See, I remember this. I remember this. I got to go on first. They would assign a flight attendant to me. She was like there. She had to keep track of me. Yeah. And they would make sure I was I think it

got to go on first. They would assign a flight attendant to me. She was like there. She had to keep track of me. Yeah. And they would make sure I was I think it was always in bulkhead, which is the very first row. And the little crystal salt and pepper shakers. I would have them on my tray flying out to Michigan and back. And I took them. So my mom had quite the collage. And I would give them to my mom. And I just remember that. But so I would go see him. And I think I would stay in Michigan for maybe three weeks. I'm not sure my mom would know more, but at least three weeks. And so he's divorced. So I spent all that time with my aunts. And I would bounce between aunts, his two sisters and then his aunt. And I got to spend all that time with my aunt. And I got to spend all that time with my cousins, which I loved. So to me, it was fun. You know, I was excited to go out there because I got to hang out with my cousins. And I got I had so much fun with them. My aunt, Chris, had a pool. My aunt, Doe, had a pool. My aunt, Diana, belonged to a like a pool club. And they would bring me. Thank God for them. Like they raised me when I was there. And they were wonderful to me. And my aunt Izzy, my dad's aunt, my aunt Izzy would take care of me. So I was close to all of these cousins and all of my aunts and uncles. And I would spend time with my grandfather, my grandpa, Barkie. And he ended up remarrying. And I spent time with both of them. I didn't know that. Yeah. And I would spend I wouldn't spend the night with my great grandparents, my Armenian great grandparents, which would have been my grandma, Satinek's parents. But I would go and spend the day with them. Why did he remarry? Did your grandmother pass away? Oh, yeah, my grandma passed away when I

have been my grandma, Satinek's parents. But I would go and spend the day with them. Why did he remarry? Did your grandmother pass away? Oh, yeah, my grandma passed away when I was. Oh, I'm going to say it wrong. I think I was six. So you were young. I was young. And that was a blow to the whole family and to my dad. It was a blow. But my grandpa did not remarry for a very long time. Like this was I was much older. He didn't remarry for a very long time. So and then also my dad was an ER doc. So I I was also when he had me, I was at the hospital. So all of these nurses and administrators would take care of me. And they were wonderful. Every day, you know, they doted on me. Everyone was wonderful to me. I was very fortunate during that time to be surrounded by such good people between family and my dad's. The people he worked with. I was very fortunate. And I think my dad lived in an apartment or something. So those first years, like five, six, that that feels very positive back in Michigan. And then I also would sometimes spend time eventually at my stepmom's house. I would spend a few nights there with my stepbrother and Andrea. And that those memories aren't as good. Yeah, you know, and so I think if I think back to that, I think what happened is, let's say, as anyone, there may be some insecurities or resentments or whatever about a first marriage, a first life, right? And the children that result from that, maybe there's some insecurities. I don't necessarily think my dad helped calm that down. You know, I don't think he didn't necessarily make everything okay all the time. Right? I don't think yeah, right. I don't think so. And I have I think he had a lot of moving parts in his life. And I don't think he wanted

okay all the time. Right? I don't think yeah, right. I don't think so. And I have I think he had a lot of moving parts in his life. And I don't think he wanted those moving parts to intersect. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And so when you don't want that to happen, sometimes you play people against each other. Yeah. And so if somebody's feeling like you, I don't know, I don't know if there was manipulation going on or not. But I didn't think do you think it was a playing people against each other or more? I have these worlds I don't want to intersect. So I'm just gonna leave out some details. Just kind of, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know, because I, I never felt totally welcome. And, um, and I know things were, you know, said to me, I think he had a lot going on. My dad, you know, I think my dad had some ladies. You know, I had thinking a few different ladies and he didn't necessarily want. Um, he didn't want those ladies to communicate with each other about that. If he's got various ladies that he doesn't want to communicating. And meanwhile, his wife is taking care of the stepdaughter, his ex wife, I think at the time, whatever that is. There's some resentment, I think. Yes. You know, oh, absolutely. That's what I mean. I think who knows. I don't know what was being said to her. Yeah. I don't know what was being said to my stepbrother. And I know what was being said to me. And it wasn't always nice about them. So I, Well, plus they had their own issues from divorce, not having a relationship with the original real father. Right. Right. Right. Right. So there's, that's already. So I'm walking into, you know, sometimes it felt like a pressure cooker. And then I also, you know, when I was born, my dad did, he did make an effort as far as

So I'm walking into, you know, sometimes it felt like a pressure cooker. And then I also, you know, when I was born, my dad did, he did make an effort as far as making me feel like I was the main girl in his life. Just like you do with Kaya. Like his daughter has, you know, love me, love me, love me when he would send me cards or we would talk on the phone. And so when you feel that way and you probably, you know, who knows when I was younger, I probably came off as, I don't know, maybe. Your daddy's girl. Daddy's girl. Right. Because I, special. Because I didn't know any different. So maybe that came off wrong. When I, when I'm walking into that home, if that makes sense, you know, you leave and you come back and when you come back, you're special. Right. I'm your special. Right. Jealousy would absolutely happen. Right. Right. Just a natural thing. I think that's what happened. And I don't think my dad would have been the best at managing that. So, and maybe at times, making it worse. So that was going on. I didn't spend, when I was really young, I didn't spend as ton of time there. That was more as I got a little older. But, so while that's, that was going on in Michigan. My mom decided to move to Northern California. She needed a change and she had friends down there. So we moved to Northern California. So, to like the Sunnyvale area. And that was when she really went back to work, which is when women, the mid seventies, women were really starting to enter the workforce. And it's where institutionalized daycare started really becoming prominent. Like it wasn't just some lady down the street. That's our generation. Yeah. Yeah. So. We are the generation where daycare became institutionalized and we're the first ones to go through it. Right. So I was

some lady down the street. That's our generation. Yeah. Yeah. So. We are the generation where daycare became institutionalized and we're the first ones to go through it. Right. So I was one, I was one, one of those kids. Right. Yeah. And so I would go to preschool and then from there go to aftercare. They call it now. Then I don't know what they called it. And then I would go to kindergarten and I'd go to the daycare section. It was all in the same building. But I was one of the last ones to always get picked up. And it's not at fault to my mom's. It was just her hours, but it sucked. It was the worst because I would, were you again? So this would have been preschool through kindergarten. Okay. So four or five or three, four or five is probably like five, six. Yeah. Like four, five, six. I think we, we, we were starting with, we were down there. So, um, I remember standing holding onto the cyclone fence, watching the parking lot. It's like a puppy dog. I know. Waiting for her yellow pacer. Um, probably only Gen X knows what that is. Um, to come into the parking lot. And I can still remember the sounds of when you're the, one of the last kids getting picked up. Cause you go from noise of children playing. And then all of a sudden the noise is it's quiet. It's like, it's quieter. It's like, it's quieter. And it's like you and like two other kids. And then the people that work there start to pack everything up and put everything away. It's an eerie feeling. You know, it's funny. I'm picturing some Hollywood movie. Where that's just happened. I can picture it. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. No, it goes from your plane. All of a sudden all your friends got picked up and you're like, Oh, where's my mom? So, um, that, that

it. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. No, it goes from your plane. All of a sudden all your friends got picked up and you're like, Oh, where's my mom? So, um, that, that was not enjoyable at all. And again, no fault to my mom. It's just was how it was like she was a single mom. My dad was in Michigan. We were in California. It's just how it was. I think, I think though, to your point, how it was, that's probably the essence of this episode in some ways in terms of other people relating, because I guarantee you there's other people who went through that and really haven't touched on it or talked about it or acknowledged it. Maybe. Yeah. Because I'll tell you, it's one of them. It was one of the motivators to why I stayed home and I didn't go to work. Yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of reasons for why I stayed home and didn't go to work and I raised my kids. And a lot of it is healing my own trauma. Well, not wanting your kids to go through the problem. Same experience. 100%. Yeah. That sounded selfish, but no, I didn't want them to go through the same thing. So anyways, uh, so then, then she met this guy, she did date off and on. We had some, some crazy times. Oh yeah. She talks about it in the other episode, but one of the guys tried to burn our house down and threw rocks through our window. It was fun. So anyways, she ended up meeting, um, this guy who Rob, who became my first stepdad. They were living together and my dad said that he didn't want me in a house where she's living with a guy. Right. So she married him. So that's such a classic part of that. So they got married down in the courthouse, I think in Sunnyvale. I was in the wedding. Well, it was at the courthouse. It was just like me, I think. He was really nice. My

a classic part of that. So they got married down in the courthouse, I think in Sunnyvale. I was in the wedding. Well, it was at the courthouse. It was just like me, I think. He was really nice. My memories of him are he was really nice. He drove a Volkswagen bus. He had kind of like this salt and pepper afro, his hair and a beard. Um, he, he was just like this nice guy. Thank God. California white socks with stripes. I don't know about that, but so late seventies, Northern California Bay area vibe. Yeah. There was only like one thing I remember that was inappropriate, but I don't think it was meant that way. But nowadays it would be a hundred percent viewed wrong is I think I was in first or second grade and I would shower with him. Yeah. That's right. That's not appropriate. And it wasn't regularly, but randomly I would take showers with him. Nothing happened. You know, nothing happened, but it's not appropriate. And I don't know if that's that Northern California vibe or if it wasn't appropriate and just didn't go further past that. I don't know. Right. But that was, that's one thing I look back on. That's one of those things you're like, okay, that's not normal. But I think it was appropriate. But nothing happened other than that. And it was not regularly. So I would say out of that whole time, oh my gosh, one Gen X thing people could relate to is there was a, um, I might've already talked about this in another episode, but there was like a baseball diamond. That was, I don't know how far of a walk. It felt like a long time. Cause I was in like first grade, but I would walk to it and I would talk to the lady that worked the vending, like where you sold candy for it was probably not just like for

like a long time. Cause I was in like first grade, but I would walk to it and I would talk to the lady that worked the vending, like where you sold candy for it was probably not just like for baseball games. It was probably like a rec park center. Yeah. That probably was open all the time. And, um, she said, if I picked up litter, she'd give me free candy. I think I was six or seven. Like I was six or seven because we weren't there when I was eight and I would spend time picking up litter and hand it in and I'd get free candy. And then I'd walk home and I, it was, I would go near, I would go along a relatively busy road. Cause I remember walking down the neighborhood road and then getting on a busy road. Like the sidewalk along a busy road. That's so Gen X that would not happen now. I think, isn't that when kids started showing up on milk cartons? Cause they were missing. Not yet. I think that's more like 1980 that started or, but, um, yeah. Like, but I mean, there was a re back then that's how it was. Yeah. Yeah. I remember going into my neighbor's house and talking to her just the night neighbor, the lady, and she'd give me cookies. That's hilarious. And I would just hang out with her and come back. You know, we, we interacted with neighbors like that when I was a kid. Yeah. It's just, I don't know. It definitely doesn't happen now. We would never have let our six or seven year old go into the neighbor's adult. What the hell's going on over there? You know, but the things that we were allowed to do because there was no fear built in because people didn't know yet it was going on. People didn't know anyways. Well, the milk cartons hadn't come out yet to tell everybody. Yeah. To let everybody know, Hey, this is going on.

built in because people didn't know yet it was going on. People didn't know anyways. Well, the milk cartons hadn't come out yet to tell everybody. Yeah. To let everybody know, Hey, this is going on. So, um, no, I think back to those times. I'm like, wow, there's some risky behavior there, but it wasn't just me. I know other Gen Xers had the similar experiences. I remember being in like those big water pipes collecting tadpoles and just on my own, you know, just you're on your own and then just showing back, back up at home. I think that's a universal thing. You know, you see the memes. We all talk about how we knew we had to go home because the streetlights are coming on. Yeah. That's not nothing too crazy. Yeah. It's nothing too crazy. So, um, while that was going on where she's married to my first stepdad, we're living in Northern California, doing the Northern California life. I would still go back every other Christmas and then every summer to Michigan. And at this point, I was still spending time with my aunts and my cousins and sometimes with my stepmom, with my great grandparents and all that. But then my dad also was dating somebody. And she was wonderful. I have wonderful memories with her. But what I didn't totally realize was that he also was still, I think, involved with my stepmom. And so, and I'm young. I'm like seven. Yeah. And, And I think still trying to get with your mom when he would see her, right? I believe maybe. Yeah. But he didn't, he didn't really see her that much during that time because she was married. So, yeah, I know. But I still think they did see each other a ton. But when they did, yes, I'm sure. Yes. So, um, I have memories of spending time with his girlfriend and then we would leave and he, on the way to going

But I still think they did see each other a ton. But when they did, yes, I'm sure. Yes. So, um, I have memories of spending time with his girlfriend and then we would leave and he, on the way to going to my stepmom's house, he would say, you can't talk about what we just, where would you, we just were and who we were with. Yeah. And so that's where I learned about like flying and stuff. Like, yeah, that I didn't totally understand that until then. How old were you again? I think I want to say I was seven, six and seven when that was going on. Well, that was the beginning of that. Then, you know, I, as I got older, I, I got really good at it. But, um, one time I messed up. Oh, really? Did. I don't know if you've told me that. I don't know if I have. We were at a restaurant with my, with my stepmom, I believe, or maybe with the girlfriend. We were with one of them. I can't remember now who it was. And I said something about what we had done with not necessarily literally with the other person, but we happen to be there. Yeah. And whoever the woman was, it was either the girlfriend or my stepmom got mad. And, um, and then he pulled me out of the restaurant and like laid into me for, I think I do remember you telling me about that. For spilling the beans. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Which it was not intentional. It was just a kid, you know, so I remember that. So that was, that was a bit traumatic and just, you know, learning. Was that your, the first time you think he ever say disciplined you or like, got upset with me. That was the first time he got upset with me that I can remember. Yeah. And it was more probably out of total frustration because he knew he now had a whole situation deal with. So like he never punished me. Yeah.

me that I can remember. Yeah. And it was more probably out of total frustration because he knew he now had a whole situation deal with. So like he never punished me. Yeah. But, um, so then, I mean, I got good at it after that. Yeah. Yeah. Like I shut my mouth and, uh, it's crazy. It's crazy, right? So that's going on. And then, um, after living in Sunnyvale, Northern California for a couple of years, my mom wanted to move back up to Portland. Needed to change. Needed to change. And so we moved up back up. My stepdad came up with us and we moved to lower Oregon. I was in third grade starting another school. There's a pattern of moving and starting schools. It's the starts and, um, they ended up getting divorced. And, but that's the beginning of my latch key life because my mom was working, he was working and then they got divorced. But, um, I would, I wasn't going to daycare. I was going home. What are you, what'd you say? This is third grade. So eight, eight, nine. Yeah. And, um, I liked that because I did not like daycare. Oh, I loved having my key. Yeah. I would, I guess I think I would get off the bus and I'd let myself into the house. And that's when I remember picking up the house, um, you know, doing the dishes, setting up the coffee for the next day. You know, if a plant needed water, nothing, nothing, not heavy cleaning, but just, you know, picking things up. If I had any homework, which back then, I don't even remember us having homework in third grade, but doing it. And then I would go out and I would play with my friends until my mom came home. And so that was my, the beginning of my latch key kid experience. And that was very, very normal, very normal. I had heard of the term latch key, but I never connected the dots.

And so that was my, the beginning of my latch key kid experience. And that was very, very normal, very normal. I had heard of the term latch key, but I never connected the dots. It was, you had a key because no one was home. Right. So you could open the door and let yourself. Yeah. And I think, I think I kept mine in my backpack, but you could wear it around your neck too. Yeah. And I remember the rule was I always called my dad when I walked in the door, I locked the door. So I call him at work, let him know I'm home. I call my mom. So they knew it, you know, they were, I was in touch with both my parents. Yeah. Um, but I was, I had freedom. Like I could go out in the neighborhood and play with, you know, no one home. And, um, and then, uh, so they got divorced and, um, so I finished out my third grade year there. And then we moved to Beaverton to another house, to another school. And that would have been fourth grade and it was just her and I. And that then, so then I was kind of bouncing between Michigan and Oregon. Same life going on in Michigan. It's very consistent bouncing between the aunts, the cousins, whoever my dad was seeing, my stepmom. Um, and then it was just my mom and I, we were back to just the two of us again. And that was, you know, we were the two of us and she got married. Now we're back to the two of us. And, um, I remember in sixth grade, I had, uh, one of my most favorite teachers, Mr. Hausmann, he was so great because he let you play music in the classroom. So I would bring my 45s and I wasn't like the DJ of the class, I would say, but I think I'm the one that always brought the most records and we would play them. And, um, he was great. And him and my mom actually went on a couple of days.

the DJ of the class, I would say, but I think I'm the one that always brought the most records and we would play them. And, um, he was great. And him and my mom actually went on a couple of days. She was a wild one. Wait, my, my, our teacher was Mr. Spice, our fifth grade teacher, Mr. Spice would let us bring in records. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah. I think there should be music in every classroom, even if it's just chill music. Just, you know, that's my buddy and I were into ACDC at the time. So we'd bring the ACDC in and play big balls, right? And just to get things stirred up as immature kids. But that's where I get introduced to the Beatles. There were two kids who loved the Beatles. We'd have to trade back and forth and they'd bring in the Beatles. No, it's, it's great. I think, yeah, I think it's, I mean, well, you and I are huge music people, but, and then she met, um, this guy named Greg and, um, dated him for a while and she ended up marrying him. That was my second stepdad. And I want to say they got married when I was in eighth grade because my dad, oh, I've left a part out. So in between that sixth and eighth grade year timeframe for me, middle school, middle school, so fun. This happened during middle school. It's a great time of every child's life. Um, is my dad actually had a surrogate. Yeah. And, um, she had my sister and that's when he actually lived in Northern Michigan. He had the coolest house. Oh my gosh. Um, right on the water and it was amazing. And, um, he, it was just him and Anna and, um, there was a nanny and he, I think he, I think he was the happiest when he was up North. Like, I think if he could have lived the rest of his life up North, that's where he would have stayed. He was truly the most at

think he, I think he was the happiest when he was up North. Like, I think if he could have lived the rest of his life up North, that's where he would have stayed. He was truly the most at peace and just, he had a boat. Yeah. And, um, looking at the map behind you, but I think he was on Lake Michigan, right? No. Burt Lake, Burt Lake, Burt Lake, Burt Lake. And he just, he had a cool community of friends up there. He worked for a great hospital up there. I see, you know, get away probably from, he loved it. He loved it. He would still go down to see his dad and my grandpa and see family, but he loved up North, you know, he just, I remember that. And I was really young. It's beautiful. Oh my gosh. Up North is amazing. So I would say that was probably one of his happiest times of his life. If I, just from my perspective as his daughter in that, that time. So, um, and Anna was there. And, um, so he had, so I had my sister and then, What's the, uh, what's the age difference between you guys? Trying to remember. So I think when she was born, um, maybe I was in sixth grade. So I don't know what that's like 11, 12 or something. Sounds about right. Cause I feel like when I met her and Alexis, they were pretty little kids. Oh yeah. We just got out of college and they were pretty, pretty cool. So I think she was, yeah. And she, she's sweetest baby. So, um, so that happened. And then my mom's dating this new guy. So I knew sister, new guy. Um, and then it all came to a culmination for me in eighth grade when my dad remarried my stepmom and my mom married Greg. So I believe there was two weddings that year. That's awesome. And I was a bolt. Yeah. Um, now you could look at that one of two ways, right? It's like, that's kind of messed up and

So I believe there was two weddings that year. That's awesome. And I was a bolt. Yeah. Um, now you could look at that one of two ways, right? It's like, that's kind of messed up and unique, or it's like, I got to go to two weddings to be the flower girl in two weddings. I wasn't in the wedding. Well, my mom married Greg in our house. It was, it was fine. It was like a family party. It was fine. I think a justice of the peace came to the house. It was weird. I mean, come on, but it was fine. And he had a, uh, two children who were close to my age. And then, um, my dad and my stepmom remarried in Vegas. And I can't remember if the chapel was in the hotel we were staying at or if we went to a chapel. So you actually went to it. Oh yeah. I was there. Um, so it w so I can't remember though. If the chapel was in the hotel or if we went to a chapel, I don't remember. So then they remarried. Um, and then they had my, my other sister. So then, then life just kind of hummed along. And so then when I would visit Michigan, I would visit their home. So what now, when I would go back to Michigan, I would go, they had a beautiful home and I would spend time there. And, um, and again, I think that especially during those middle school years, you know, there was just, I had been in fight and flight for so long. And, um, I had gone through a lot of trauma, a lot of change, and I had such a severe abandonment complex because of not having my dad in my life. Cause it was so sporadic, you know, not just your dad, but it gets compounded going to Northern California and having husband number two, and then moving back and having husband number three, I think. Right. Right. You get to know these people and it's like, Oh, it's my dad, my stepdad.

husband number two, and then moving back and having husband number three, I think. Right. Right. You get to know these people and it's like, Oh, it's my dad, my stepdad. You're, you're my new dad. Right. Now he's gone. Well then, Oh, you're the new dad. Right. Now he's gone. Right. So it's a little, so there's a lot of, yeah. Yeah. No, and I think my, my mom was trying to create a family. Yeah. That was her ultimate goal. Right. Um, but my dad and I were very close and yet we weren't right. So he was never, I think I can only think of three instances where I was with both my parents together and my child. What was our wedding? I'm talking about my childhood, maybe two in my childhood. Like he came to one softball practice when he was in town and I remember being a ditter with them. And I remember how weird it was for me to say I was with my mom and dad, because that never came out of my mouth. I never said I was with my mom and dad. I think those two times I was able to say that. And I remember loving being able to say that. And I remember being just so fascinated by families where the parents were married and they had this great life and everyone, you know, most of the kids I knew his parents were still married. Divorce was just starting. It's like, um, well, we're, we are the beginning of that generation. Right. It was just starting this journey. Right. So most kids, I was like, my mom, you know, was one of the few single moms when I was in elementary school. Like she was not invited to chaperone dances or, you know, she wasn't really in cause she was a single mom and all that. So that stigma, but like, I never felt, um, like I belonged to something. Like I didn't totally belong with my

dances or, you know, she wasn't really in cause she was a single mom and all that. So that stigma, but like, I never felt, um, like I belonged to something. Like I didn't totally belong with my friends cause all their, they came from normal families and their parents were married and they all seemed healthy and okay. And I remember kind of observing them growing up thinking, well, like you're all fine, like you don't have any worries where I was constantly in a state of worry and anxiety, and I could never understand how my peers were just okay with life and humming along when every day for me, it was a utter struggle for survival felt like so. And then I didn't totally feel like I belonged in my Armenian family because I'm half Armenian and I'm, I was never with them enough right as I would start to feel, um, like, okay, I'm getting the groove. I'd have to go back to Oregon summer's over like the three weeks you're here. It was over. So it would be wonderful. And then I'd have to go back to Oregon. And then I never felt I belonged in my dad's family, you know, with my stepmom and their children, because I was from his first marriage and his first life. And that wasn't totally welcomed. And there was, there was some kind of resentment and some jealousy and for whatever reason, you know, so I never felt like it belonged there. And then with my mom, of course I always belonged with my mom, but then when there was a man, especially my second stepdad, he didn't totally, he had a weird relationship with me. He didn't, he was kind of jealous of me and he liked it better when I was visiting my dad, cause they could do their thing. And then when I would come back, they'd have to get more on a regular schedule. So when she was married to him, I didn't

better when I was visiting my dad, cause they could do their thing. And then when I would come back, they'd have to get more on a regular schedule. So when she was married to him, I didn't totally feel like I belonged in that family. Do you, you've been saying all this as a young kid or the, from the perspective or of a young kid, which you were, it's, it's a little, it's nutty. I don't know what the right word is. It's not nutty, but do you can, as an adult, can you rationalize it now where all these moving parts kind of makes sense for the people? It wasn't like, Oh, we don't want Nicole with us or this or that, but the, what made me think of this is if you're the stepdad and your mom, they have a relationship, you're just in the way in terms of where this guy's mentality is. Whereas your mom, you're you and your mom, you're tight. She's you're hers, but for him, your competition right elsewhere, your competition, but you can rationalize it now, but it made no sense. Then I would assume. I never felt accepted. I never felt accepted and I never had a sense of self because I didn't know where I came from really. So like when I was with my peers, I would kind of identify with them. Like that's how I would find my sense of self because I didn't have any idea who I was. So I would kind of adjust myself to my surroundings. So when I was in Michigan with my cousins, you know, I would adjust to that life. And then when I was with my stepmom and my dad and their family, I was, I would be on the defensive, I would be on high alert, but I would adjust. I had different personalities depending on which world I was in. I had many different worlds and none of them I felt accepted in. And this isn't to say, oh, everybody should feel sorry for me.

I had different personalities depending on which world I was in. I had many different worlds and none of them I felt accepted in. And this isn't to say, oh, everybody should feel sorry for me. I'm just stating, I'm just saying this is how I felt. And I'm not saying everyone was horrible, but I'm saying this is how I felt. Do you know what's interesting is I think people can relate to that. Like I can, and I have a quote unquote normal, right? My parents were together and had a big family, but I think as kids we're all exposed to weird things. Um, I had my aunts in Jersey city and you know, they're crazy aunts and it was uncomfortable and weird, but it was still okay. I had my family in West Virginia who I loved to death. It's just different though. Right there in West Virginia. I was in New Jersey. So it's, it's interesting. It's, but it's, I always had a home base. Because you mean to a home base type of thing. Yeah. You weren't resented. You were always accepted. Yeah. And celebrated. Yeah. So I don't remember ever feeling celebrated in my entire childhood. Yeah. Ever. That's interesting. Um, now I'm not saying that that effort wasn't put in my mom. I mean, we celebrated my birth. I don't mean like literally like we celebrate my birthday and I got wonderful gifts for Christmas. And, um, just nothing was settled. I was a priority. So I was a priority and my family in Oregon loved me and my family in Michigan loved me, but underneath the surface, I did not feel like I belonged anywhere. So in a way I felt like I was always kind of treading water. And then I had this huge abandonment issue with from my dad and then men in general. Yeah. Yeah. So I resolved that through having a boyfriend. So, but I did skip over one thing.

And then I had this huge abandonment issue with from my dad and then men in general. Yeah. Yeah. So I resolved that through having a boyfriend. So, but I did skip over one thing. One thing with, um, my second stepdad is he wasn't appropriate. He didn't touch me or anything, but he, I remember he would kiss me on the lips, right from the start. And how old were you? Uh, sixth grade. And I remember, yeah. And that was weird. I eventually like when I was young enough to, it was happening, happened before I was old enough to stop it. But then as I got a little, then I stopped it. Like I didn't go on long, but all of a sudden I was like, uh, yeah. And then, um, you know, he would just, I would catch him looking at me. Yeah. You've mentioned, yeah, he would look at me, he would layer at me. And then when he, he would have a, he had a friend over once and he was like flirting with me. That's when I was in, um, I was 15, I think then. So I was in high school, but so he was, there was something off about him with that. I mean, I can't, nothing happened, but he also wasn't necessarily a hundred percent of a safe space. If I can say that. Um, you know, like when I'd be laying outside in the sun, like he was watching me stuff like that. So just inappropriate shit. Eventually they got divorced. Um, but what happened was is I was boy crazy, right? I was boy crazy from easily six grades. I had a boyfriend then I was that girl who was making out with boys in sixth grade. Um, one boy, one thing is boy crazy as I was, I was very monogamous because I was trying to fill that void of not having to dad around with a consistent relationship with some sort of male figure. So whether it was my sixth grade boyfriend or my

trying to fill that void of not having to dad around with a consistent relationship with some sort of male figure. So whether it was my sixth grade boyfriend or my seventh grade boyfriend or my eighth grade boyfriend. Um, did you have any friends who were in the same boat as you that, you know, that were boy crazy? Yeah. Like, yes, there was another girl that was also, and when I say making out, I'm talking about kissing, but, uh, she was also down for that too. And then, yeah, there were girls like dating and middle school, um, but they weren't obsessed like I was. I mean, I think there was like maybe one or two, but most girls were fine. And that always perplexed me because I wasn't like I was, I was trying to fill that void or there was always that void and I was always trying to fill it. So, um, when I got into high school, I actually, um, ended up dating the nicest guy ever, thank God. He was, he came from a normal family. He, he had siblings, he had great parents. He, he was awesome. He took me to my first Grateful Dead concert. He introduced me to a lot of really great music. A lot of our relationship was about music. Um, so I'm very grateful because high school was so tumultuous because things weren't going good with my second stepdad and my mom and him and I weren't totally getting along. So my home life there was bad. And then when I would go back to Michigan, there was always, you know, my stepbrother and I butted heads and that was a nightmare at that house. So I had no safe space at all. And so my boyfriend became my safe space and he was awesome, but I don't think I was good for him. Like we loved each other in height for high school love. We loved each other very much. But he, you know, he was dealing with damage.

and he was awesome, but I don't think I was good for him. Like we loved each other in height for high school love. We loved each other very much. But he, you know, he was dealing with damage. He was, he was probably stable with a stable family and he's got this crazy wild damage goods. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Too young to deal with it. Quite frankly. Absolutely. And he did it pro. Yeah. He, he did. I looked back. I've, you know, I've reflected obviously as you unpack your trauma, it's kind of like AA, like how those people that are alcoholics have to go apologize and like kind of go step by step. When you unpack your trauma, you actually have to go step by step. Yeah. You have to unpack your childhood trauma to heal from it and you have to go step by step. Well, it's an interesting thing. You're bringing up and it came up with your mom, right? She's probably too old to go there. Maybe is right. We talked about that. You go see a therapist or talk to someone and unpack it. Right. He never really did, but you certainly have, I think. And it may be, it's probably a lifelong process, right? Well, I mean, I think that at this point I'm 53. And I really feel like I re I probably didn't resolve all of my trauma until. Like four years ago, you know, maybe. Yeah. I mean, and I'm talking about all of it. Yeah. Like I resolved and we'll get to that. I resolved a lot, but where I am like really okay. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to remember from age one to 18 and probably through college, I was in fight or flight. So your body's in fight or flight. Your mind is in fight or flight. I had a lot of different coping mechanisms. One of them was dating, like finding a boyfriend. And then the other one was of course drinking. Once I did that, once I

Your mind is in fight or flight. I had a lot of different coping mechanisms. One of them was dating, like finding a boyfriend. And then the other one was of course drinking. Once I did that, once I started that, that was fun. I didn't drink until summer before sophomore year. Um, and then of course, you know, dabbling in smoking pot, you know, and, um, and then, uh, having an eating disorder, which we're going to go more in depth in a, another episode, but I didn't eat any disorder. And I also, I cut, I did cut and I had, uh, I definitely had some episodes where I wanted to kill myself. Like I really did want to kill myself and I thought about how I was going to do it. And I think at one point I even wrote a letter, you know, yeah. Yeah. I just wanted it. You're in so much pain that you just want to release. You don't understand that you're making a permanent decision for a temporary problem. But when you have always felt that way your whole life, it doesn't feel temporary. So, um, that's kind of how I got through it. I survived through high school and then this pork guy. Yeah. Now he didn't know all of that was going on. It's not like I projected all of it on him, but probably didn't know it was all going. You did, but you didn't. I didn't. I was just the way it was. Chaos. I was chaos and we had a great friendship and a great relationship and a lot of fun. But when I was spiraling, it was, I'm sure a nightmare for him. And I feel, I feel horrible about that. Um, I mean, I was a kid and I was damaged, but I wish I could go back and fix that, but you can't. So, I mean, he's great. He's, I think he's still probably a wonderful guy and he's has a great life and, and thank God, and that's wonderful.

could go back and fix that, but you can't. So, I mean, he's great. He's, I think he's still probably a wonderful guy and he's has a great life and, and thank God, and that's wonderful. And I actually, um, I will say when Facebook first came around, I did reach out to him and I did apologize. I do remember that. Yeah. And, um, he, I think it took him a while to respond because he's probably like, oh my God, run, but he was very gracious. He was very gracious. So I'm, you know, so then, um, uh, then in college, um, I dated one kid briefly and then I had my college boyfriend. Even on my senior trip to Mazatlan, when my friends were like hooking up with different guys or meeting different guys, I met one guy and I was with him that for that week, like it was very much about one person. I was never one of these that could like, Mike, my count, my body count is so low because I was never one that could like just get with guys. I couldn't, I just couldn't do it. I had to know them or whatever. And even this guy in Mazatlan, like we got to know each other and he kept, he wrote me letters afterwards and called me and thought we were going to have a relationship. So I'm very much into that monogamy from the very start. And then I had my college boyfriend who was one of your very good friends at the time. Um, and we were in the, this is how we met. We were in the same friend group and it allowed you and I to become very good friends. We were that platonic good friend that we became good friends, but I was with him all through college. Right. So that feeling of abandonment and that trying to fill that void, um, it you one way or another, when someone has an absentee father, especially, that's why you should

all through college. Right. So that feeling of abandonment and that trying to fill that void, um, it you one way or another, when someone has an absentee father, especially, that's why you should never underestimate the value of a father in a child's life, especially a girl's life. It's monumental. It, it, it truly shapes who they become and how stable they are in life and, um, what it teaches them self-respect and value. I never felt valued. I think, I think the dad father child relationship, I think it's, I'll say it's more important than the mother father or mother child, but no, it's just me seeing that as a dad. I, I, I just don't, you have to take it seriously. It is such a monumental thing. And because you have a biological connection to your mother because your mother delivered you, or if you're, you know, either way you were in your mother. Your mother's boy, your mother's mother. So the father, you it's critical. It's so critical. So critically. You cannot abandon your kids. No, you have to take an interest. You cannot, you've got to be there. It's so, it's so important. Yeah. It's, it's so it's, I just, uh, as speaking as someone who didn't have that, it's so vital, it helps form who you are. And without it, you are just, you have to figure it out for yourself. And eventually I did. Right. So I continued with my coping mechanisms through college and, um, and then, you and I ended up together and you were the first man in my life who saw me for truly who I was and accepted me completely. No matter what I did and no matter what happened, like you love, it didn't affect how much you love me and it didn't affect you, you'd never let, you never left, you never left. Yeah. You never, you never wanted to leave me.

happened, like you love, it didn't affect how much you love me and it didn't affect you, you'd never let, you never left, you never left. Yeah. You never, you never wanted to leave me. I like wild, crazy, bro. I know. Damage goods, right? No. Yeah. Damage goods. But you know, when you, when you come from the space that I came from, you almost self-sabotage things because you always know something bad's going to happen because nothing ever good does that last things are temporary that are good. So I actually, you know, I think I've said this before, but I spent a good beginning of my marriage, just like testing you in a lot of ways of, I know you're going to leave, so I'm, I might as well ruin this. Like I might as well, like push, push, push the boundaries a little bit just to kind of see, are you really going to stay? Are you going to go? You really get, there was a lot of that abandonment shit in the beginning. And then I remember having, you remember that working our way through that. Like what the fuck is going on? That type of thing, right? Why are you, you know, yeah. Like, why am I acting like this? And I remember when, when we were trying to decide what we were going to do after we got married, if we were going to stay in Portland or what we were going to do. And I remember you saying to me, cause I still was struggling with stuff with my dad. That was always such an issue. And you said, let's move to Michigan so you can resolve this. Cause I said, I don't want to project this onto our kids. Whatever is going on with me, I don't want to project this onto our kids. And you said, let's move to Michigan so you can resolve this once and for all. And we were 23 and you were, as a 23 year old young man, you thought of that for me.

And you said, let's move to Michigan so you can resolve this once and for all. And we were 23 and you were, as a 23 year old young man, you thought of that for me. I mean, it was just, I look back on that and I'm like, my God, that was such love coming from you, you know, just the wisdom. No, but it's also just so giving an unselfish and thoughtful and just, you know, you love me enough to do that, to move to Michigan. I don't know anybody in Michigan. And then we did. And that was a very tumultuous year. That was a crazy year. And, um, that's when I found out also that I had another sister, um, that I didn't know about from my, one of my dad's relationships in high school and she's amazing and, um, but it was, it was another thing that was like, wow. Okay. Another change. I don't remember it being completely tumultuous. At least probably not for me, right? No, I think it was great for you. Maybe. No, I mean, I think we partied a lot. We did party a lot. No, it wasn't, I'm not saying negative, but there were some tumultuous times. Cause I was like living in the same place as my dad for really the first time ever. You know, and also he has a family and how to fit in there and we're married and all that. It was, it was crazy. Yeah, it was crazy, but it lasted a year. Yeah. And then, and then we were out of there. So, and I would say that, um, I don't know if anything was officially resolved, but I could, I was okay after that, as far as like putting it to rest. I was like, okay, this is done. I think that year allowed you to make sense of certain things that you hadn't made sense of yet. And, and if it didn't fully resolve it, at least it kind of moved it further down a little bit, progressed a little

sense of certain things that you hadn't made sense of yet. And, and if it didn't fully resolve it, at least it kind of moved it further down a little bit, progressed a little bit further in terms of understanding. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Yeah. I think it did help with some understanding. Put some things into compartmentalize certain aspects and okay, this is how it is and not really even about me as much as it's just this crazy fucked up situation I was part of. Right. Wasn't necessarily personal, but it was at times. Um, one thing I should backtrack to, one thing I should backtrack to is, um, you and I had been friends in college for most of college. Um, and so I think that by the time we got together, I think you were definitely safe, a safe place for me. Cause we had had so many long talks and that was such a foundation of our, of relationship and you knew me pretty, really pretty well, I would say from that. So it's not like we were going in blind at all. Like we had known each other for so long. I think we were the only vegetarians. So whenever I brought food to parties, you would always eat my food. And we would just have these really long talks. I mean, I know in our friend group, there was definitely suspicion that like we had cheated or something, um, my boyfriend, but we absolutely had not, there was never any crossover of anything. And we actually, after graduating from college, drove around the country for two and a half months and I think, I know for me, that was when I knew I, that I wanted to marry you because if you can be in a car with someone for two and a half months, you could definitely probably make a life together. But, um, I think that foundation helped. And I think I've talked about this before

in a car with someone for two and a half months, you could definitely probably make a life together. But, um, I think that foundation helped. And I think I've talked about this before that, um, for a successful marriage having that foundation of friendship, because so much goes on in marriage. You always can come back to that friendship. So we had that time to, to create that, that foundation. And I think that that helped when we lived in Michigan for that year. And that also helped as I was figuring out my shit, basically, you know, so there was that level of respect. Well, I think in that, in the spirit of that, if you're really friends with someone, you have mutual respect and a foundation to fall back on. Whereas if you're in this, uh, for lack of a better word, transactional relationship, that's semi transactional short-term, you get into it for whatever reasons, whereas, but if you're a friend that evolves into something more than friends, it's obviously more, there's more substance there. 100%. And like you said, there's a level of respect that we just, even though, even though we go at it, we do, we, we are in a constant state of debating. It's never boring over 30 years and it has never been boring, but in our kids, I know we drive them crazy sometimes, but, um, even though there's that, there's still, we'll never go to a certain level with each other. Came up the other day, whether we're playing Uno or something, um, with, with the kids and they were like, well, you guys are fighting. We're like, we're not fighting. We're just talking. We're just talking, you know, but it's just how we are. So, so we got married. But it was way off base. It was way off base. It was way off base. Yeah. I don't even know where that came from.

We're just talking, you know, but it's just how we are. So, so we got married. But it was way off base. It was way off base. It was way off base. Yeah. I don't even know where that came from. There wasn't even banter. No. Just like, what the hell are you talking about? So maybe they're damaged. I don't, hopefully not. We worked so hard to give them this great childhood, but, um, so we had that year and then we moved back and then I will be the first to say that my heart healed. When I became a mother, when I had Nathan, uh, I shifted my whole personality shifted. My heart shifted. My brain shifted. It's like, um, it was like a bomb over my soul. Yeah. And, um, it was, it was amazing. It was so healing and I felt so fortunate to have him and be a mother. And it was just such a gift. And I just, I, for the first time in my life, I felt real joy and purpose. And I belonged to some, I belonged. I was a mother and I was your wife and we were a family and I belonged to something truly, you know, having our first kid, we were, went from being a couple to being a unit. Yes. Now we're this, you know, family as people do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The family unit. But it just gave me such that, uh, it stabilized me. It grounded me. I, I don't know. It shifted completely because I hadn't, I no more doubt because it was all about being a mother. It was about him. Yeah. And I found a strength that I didn't know existed. And, um, it also through over the years of being a mother helped me understand what I deserved when I was growing up and what I was not given, especially by my dad, um, watching you and Kaya, you be a father to her. It's been joyous to me and I'm, I, I'm so grateful for it. You're an amazing dad and you guys have

what I was not given, especially by my dad, um, watching you and Kaya, you be a father to her. It's been joyous to me and I'm, I, I'm so grateful for it. You're an amazing dad and you guys have such an incredible relationship. She's so much, she's such a strong woman and so much of that has to do with you as her being her dad. But it, it also, I've been able to see how it helped me understand why I was so broken. It makes sense. Like I, then I gave, I was able to give myself grace because it was like, why did I, why did I do those things? Why was I acting like that? Why was I spiraling? Why was I, why was everything always so crazy? Oh, well that's why, you know, that's why that child was the way she was, you know, and I finally wasn't understood. I'm like, oh, that wasn't normal. It's an interesting concept because I think you subconsciously do that as, or not you, but in general, we all subconsciously do that as we're doing this parenting thing, but for you to see this alternatives approach to a father-daughter relationship. Yeah. I never thought of it in those terms. That's, it makes a lot more sense. Kind of put some pieces of the puzzle together. Yeah. It, it helped me understand myself and why I was the way I was. Cause for so many years, I just felt crazy. And I thought I am crazy. That's it. I'm just, it's all my fault. I had guilt because I thought I'm a bad person or I'm crazy or something's wrong with me and not even realizing, no, this, this really is because of everything you experienced growing up and it's not normal and that here's this normal way things should be. And so it really helped me and it helped me. It has helped me watching her grow up with a father and also you with the boys. Yeah. Yeah.

things should be. And so it really helped me and it helped me. It has helped me watching her grow up with a father and also you with the boys. Yeah. Yeah. And us as a family, you know what we, cause I so badly wanted to be, we talked before we got married, as I've said in other episodes, it's important to do that. I wanted to be home because of all this, because of everything I'd gone through. I had lived in a state of instability and chaos my whole life. So, you know how a lot of women are like, I want to go get a job and I want to have a career and I want to do that. I want to travel and I want to do all these things. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I did all the things. I've been doing all the things since I was one years old. I want stability. I want to stay at home. I want to cook. I want to clean. I want to bake cookies. I want to change diapers because I never had that stability. I flipped. So I never had the itch because I never was in one. I never felt like I was grounded. So I wanted to be home. Thankfully you wanted your wife home because your mom was home. So you wanted to try to replicate how you grew up. So it worked for two totally different reasons. Well, you know, you know, what's funny is, um, I don't, I'm not, I don't want to make it sound like you overcompensated, but you got to do some things that were say pseudo iconic concepts, like in the fall, going and picking pumpkins with the kids. Yes. At a pumpkin patch, picking apples. We lived in Jersey at the time. Yeah. Picking apples. I think you even went picking strawberries. Yeah. Right. So those, oh my gosh, no, no, no. Mark type of thing. Talk about overcomp. I was, I was class mom. I was team mom. I'm still team mom for our last first son.

picking strawberries. Yeah. Right. So those, oh my gosh, no, no, no. Mark type of thing. Talk about overcomp. I was, I was class mom. I was team mom. I'm still team mom for our last first son. Um, I was the girl scout leader. Yeah. I went on all the field trips. I have a snack drawer I've had in my house since the kids were little that every kid who walks in this house can open and eat whatever they want. And we have a mini fridge filled with drinks. Don't ask the rule in this house is you don't ask, you just help yourself. Because our house has been an open door policy for the last like 25 years. All the kids are welcome here. I, I jumped in and I, I like cannonballed into this. I'm like, whatever I can do to be the mom, the wife, I'm doing it. And I have loved every minute of it. You know, it's interesting. The reason I gave the disclaimer of the overcompensating is because the kids, it's worked out in that you have done all those things and, but they still, they don't feel that overbearingness of like, Oh, my mom, this, or my mom, that, right. We're friends with them at this point. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting balance. I think that has been struck in that sense. I mean, and thank God, because it is weird. Well, I think some of that has to do with how I communicate with them. I've always tried, we have an open communication in our house. Like we talk about everything, but I try to not, um, make them talk unless it's something that I feel that, look, we need to talk about this. I try to give them some space. Like I try to wait until they come to me. Cause I know they're going to cause I go in on them. What's going on? They shut down. They shut down. And then you, I'm like, just let it, let it complain to you about me.

Cause I know they're going to cause I go in on them. What's going on? They shut down. They shut down. And then you, I'm like, just let it, let it complain to you about me. And then open up. Yeah, probably. But, um, so maybe that, and I have tried to some keep a balance of not being involved in their personal life, unless we're needed, but being a presence of support at all times, if need, like we're, we're on call tap us in whenever you need us, we're here. And I never, one of my kids to come home to an empty house. And I, if I wanted them to know, I just wanted that 1950s traditional lifestyle. And it's not cause I'm an anti-feminist. I'm not. It's my own personal thing. I needed that. And thank God you wanted that too. And you worked your ass off to give that to us. We started out with nothing. We lived in a box. That's the size of this very small room we're in was our entire house. Um, we, including the bathroom, the shower, everything, the kitchen, everything. We started with nothing. And at one point you were biking to work. That's how important it was to both of us that I was home. And we've built this life together, but we have had made sacrifices. That we could have gone an easier path. Yes. Getting a little more familiar or family support type of thing. Right. But we didn't, we went a different route. I could have gone to work. Yeah. Um, and I, and I know I don't know, but I, I'm sure there's been judgment through the years from different people that have entered our lives, um, or have been in our lives that I haven't worked, but it's been both of our value. It's not been me saying, I don't want to work. It's our value for how we wanted to raise our children. And it's a partnership. And I've said in the past, you had the

It's not been me saying, I don't want to work. It's our value for how we wanted to raise our children. And it's a partnership. And I've said in the past, you had the privilege of going and pursuing your career and knowing that everything on the home front was taken care of. And I never worried about are my kids okay? Is there going to be dinner when I come home? Is my house going to be clean? Am I going to have clean underwear? Yeah. It was done. So it allowed you the freedom in your mind to focus completely on your work. Yeah. Um, and I had the privilege, you gave me the privilege of being able to be home and create that, that life. So we worked as a wonderful partnership. And, and as a result, um, you know, I say. There are no report cards or, um, sal, uh, salary raises or promotions when you're a parent. I think the way you know that your reward or that you did an okay job is if your adult children want to hang out with you still, and they want to hang out. And they're successful. Well, and they're successful. I'm talking about our relationship. Yeah. They're not in the basement. No, looking to come up for dinner. No, they're well-adjusted. They're working there, contributing to society. Our children volunteer all that stuff. But, um, our relationship with them, they want to still hang out with us. So I feel like, okay, I have a question. Yeah. Um, your college degree, it's childhood education. So it's officially humanities, but it's an emphasis on early childhood education. What, what took you down that path? Well, in college, so when I went to college, I just wanted to get out of Portland and I needed a change. Um, I didn't ever have an idea completely when I went to college, what I want to do

Well, in college, so when I went to college, I just wanted to get out of Portland and I needed a change. Um, I didn't ever have an idea completely when I went to college, what I want to do with my life, because I was coming from such chaos, I just needed to get out. Um, and then through the first couple of years at school, I, I thought about psychology for a long time because of where I came from. I thought about psychology for a long time, but I've always loved children. And I've always liked when I was in high school, I, um, worked at a daycare, ironically. And I love, I love kids. And so eventually I just thought, you know what? This would be a career I would enjoy. And I thought this would also be a good schedule when I become a mother. I, if I'm a teacher, I would be on there. I was already thinking, I was already thinking about when I became a mother, that this would be something I could do. And when they're off, I'm off. But I enjoyed, um, I've always loved children and I've always been able to connect with children. Yeah. So, um, but then I just wanted to be home. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I did actually also think the psychology thing I thought about, um, wanting to be a therapist or a school counselor in a high school to help kids. Cause I knew there were kids probably like me that suffered for different reasons. So I would have really enjoyed that, but I just was so hyper focused on. Wanting to be home with my family. I mean, the reason I ask is I think that your background there has allowed you to, to probably be a better mom or a better communicator with the kids. Maybe. Yeah. Kind of curiosity on that. Yeah. I could be, I mean, I never got certified. So like I have a one year certifiable.

better communicator with the kids. Maybe. Yeah. Kind of curiosity on that. Yeah. I could be, I mean, I never got certified. So like I have a one year certifiable. I didn't go my fifth year. So if I went my fifth year, I would have been, I would have been able to teach, but it could be, and it could just be, um, natural affinity. I guess, you know, just wanting, I just always wanted, I know from the way I grew up every day felt like it either felt like the end of times or it was always ups or downs every day was so important to me. And at times I didn't feel that, um, anyone around me understood that I'm holding on for dear life here. So with our kids, I've always wanted to honor every day for them. And yeah, this may be minuscule in the whole scheme of life, but for right now in this moment, this means everything. And I'm going to honor that for you. And so I'm not going to diminish it and I'm not going to undermine it. I belittle it because right now this, this feels like everything. So I think that came from me never that never being honored for me. So it's one of the reasons I try to, um, when they come to me, when they were eight, 15, 22, whatever the hell it is. Sure. I'm 53. I know everything's going to be fine, but that's not how you feel right now. And you need someone to say, I understand you. I get you. And, and I'm, I hear you. And I honor what you're saying. I think I've grown into that. Yes. You're much better, much better now than even a year ago or two years ago. But yeah, you've always been good at that. Whereas I'm more like, come on. Yeah. It's not that big a deal. Let's roll. Yeah. Well, and I think some of that's from the way you were raised. Probably. You know, I think, you know, I think you

Yeah. It's not that big a deal. Let's roll. Yeah. Well, and I think some of that's from the way you were raised. Probably. You know, I think, you know, I think you were probably raised that way where, you know, it was, uh, you know, you were raised by the men around you were either silent generation or Gen X and it's very much like, can't get over it. What are you doing? You know, you be a man, just get over it to in Vietnam. That's in. No, get back in the game, buddy. Gen X men were not listened to about their emotions. No one checked in. We've talked about that. Yeah. No one checked in with, with Gen X boys about how they were feeling about anything. Any, and I'm talking about how we check in with our kids. None of that was done. So, and the reason I'm like that with the kids is because of my own experience. I have, I have thought that to myself before, like, how did I create such a traditional family life when I had zero example of that growing up? Like I had no blueprint, but I think I just had this dream as a kid of what I wanted, and so I just create, tried to create that, like this is what I wish I had, so I'm just going to create that. Yeah. And that's what I, what I, and then thankfully you had the blueprint. So just about looking to take credit, but as we would navigate this, I had something that, you know, Oh, 100%. Whenever I grew up doing, we did as a family. 100%. Now you came from a strong family background. You also gave me permission to not give a shit about what others think. Truly. You know, I was kind of raised like to always look at the other, where the other person is coming from to a fault and you were like, fuck them. And you really gave me, no, but you, it elaborated. No, no, no, but it

always look at the other, where the other person is coming from to a fault and you were like, fuck them. And you really gave me, no, but you, it elaborated. No, no, no, but it liberated me when it mattered. It liberated me. Now, a lot of that I acquired it once I became a mother, became to my kids. Like I had no hesitation. Jersey and your take that West coast out of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also, it was more just like, it's okay. You don't have to always be caring about everyone else's feelings. Like you don't need to be a jerk, but it's okay to reclaim your own energy. Cause, cause I was also from the way I was raised. I was also a people pleaser and walked on eggshells. So I was always hyper aware of how everyone else in the room was feeling. Cause I didn't want to do anything to upset them more. So when you grow up like that, you, you helped me let a lot of that go where it could be like, I reclaim my own energy back. I reclaim my own space. And I didn't have to worry about everyone else in the room. It was very liberating. It was very, very, that allowed me to have, uh, that brought me a lot of peace. So, you know, raising our kids was very healing, but I still, here's the, here's one sad thing is, um, when I was, what I had been in 2003, I would have like, um, 32 31. So my, my dad and I, um, for a couple of years before that, maybe a year and a half before that had started to really for the first time where I remember he was thrilled with Nathan was born and then thrilled when Kaya was born. And I remember I visited him on a layover in Arizona. He was there for some medical thing. And when he was walking me back to the taxi to take me back to the airport, he apologized to me. Oh, really? He appall, he said, I'm sorry for

He was there for some medical thing. And when he was walking me back to the taxi to take me back to the airport, he apologized to me. Oh, really? He appall, he said, I'm sorry for everything that you were put through with your, your mom and I's divorce and everything. I don't know why he, I don't know where that came from. It was so random. Um, and the interesting thing about him as chaotic as he was, he's very, um, what's the right word and intuitive, intuitive and touch with things. He was a doctor. He had great bedside manners. He, he could, uh, empathize or relate. And I think he was aware. I think he was starting to get to the point in his life where he was reflective. You and I've talked about this when we hit 50, we started getting that way. So he was heading into his sixties and I think he was reflecting and he also probably seen me as a mom and a wife. And so he was very proud of you. Yeah. Um, but he, he apologized. I mean, a lot to me. And then after that, he started, he visited us, became more regular. Well, he only came what, uh, three times total. I think he visited us in New Jersey and on his own, he visited us in New Jersey. And that was a big deal for him to come and see me on his own. Yeah. He came out for the kids' birthdays. And as a result, him and I, we were just starting to have our own relationship for the first time since I was probably like two, cause where it was really, he was making the effort for me. Yeah. Cause up until then, everything was on his terms. Yeah. My whole childhood, our relationship was on his terms. It was never on my terms as it should be. Yeah. Should be on the child's terms. Right. Um, this was from, he was trying to have a relationship with me where I had spent my whole life trying to have

Yeah. Should be on the child's terms. Right. Um, this was from, he was trying to have a relationship with me where I had spent my whole life trying to have a relationship with him. And then I moved on and then he came around and was trying to have a relationship with me and with the kids and everything. And, um, and things were really starting to take a turn. It was, it was, it was really glorious for me. And I was, I was so happy to have this, this new found a chance with him. And it was starting to really heal a lot that was left that was still hurting. Um, and then he got, uh, he died in a car accident. He had come to see Kaya for her birthday and a month later, a little more than a month later, he died in a car accident. And I would say that was very traumatic. Um, my stepbrother was calling the house, but we didn't hear the phone. We're sleeping through it. It's when you had landlines and, um, the local police came and knocked on our door. Yeah. Like two, three in the morning. Yeah. And, uh, and then you called for me cause I was like, I knew something was wrong. I can't call. Yeah. The cops, like, um, you need to call Michigan. Someone in Michigan is trying to reach you and they've been calling. They can't. So call them. And then you did. Yeah. And, um, you call your Brian, you talk to Brian and then you were the one that had to tell me. Yeah. I still remember it. Yeah. And so, um, when that happened, it wasn't just losing my dad. It was losing, um, the potential of what could have been, and it was losing the hope and the dream of us finally. Excuse me. Of us finally having that relationship that I had been trying to have my entire life and it's like I had gotten a glimpse of it and then it was just ripped away

Excuse me. Of us finally having that relationship that I had been trying to have my entire life and it's like I had gotten a glimpse of it and then it was just ripped away from me and I don't mean to sound selfish cause my God, he lost his life. So, I mean, there's so many levels of tragedy in this, but I'm speaking from my own perspective, the, I think one of the reasons it was just so utterly is that I would have been on a perpetual wheel of losing my dad my whole life. Cause I would get a chance of exposure to him and then either have to leave Michigan or he would have another life experience that would take him further away from me. Like he was always like just drifting further and further away from me. So my life was always losing him. And then, and then there was this chance where he was going to actually be able to be in my life. And then I lost him permanently. So it was devastating on so many levels, not just losing my dad. It was losing my dream, you know, all of it. And that's when I started drinking, you know, that's when I started drinking. Alcohol was never a huge, huge part. Like I partied in high school and college, but it was never a big part of my life, my daily life. And that's when I remember I made a drink that night and I think I made a drink every night after that for like 20 years. Yeah. Major coping, major coping. Um, that's how devastating it was, you know, and then I, one day I just, I w I made the decision. I'm like enough. Like it says enough. Like this is, this is, it's an, it's too much. And you're, you know, we've talked about how alcohol is going to, would affect us living into old age, healthy and all that. But for me, it was like stop. And it wasn't like I was getting drunk every night.

how alcohol is going to, would affect us living into old age, healthy and all that. But for me, it was like stop. And it wasn't like I was getting drunk every night. No, no, I was going to, no, I wasn't, I wasn't a drunk alcoholic. I just was having that drink. I was a coping alcohol. I was a, I was a very high functioning alcoholic. I would have a drink, at least a drink every night. And then on the weekends we would have a few more and we've talked about alcohol in another episode. That's a whole episode, but that's where it started, you know? And so it was just that little bit of coping. And then I just was like done. And so, and that's crazy. You know, you think about it. So it's almost like half of my life dealing with my father. Well, the real shame of it too is like you were saying, he was, I remember him coming out and how happy he was to be there and how stress free it was. Yeah. Right. And, but I also remember the lead up to it where he'd be like, you know, Nicole, I'm thinking of coming out on this such and such date. Does this work for you? Yeah. And then, well, can you come out this weekend? It's, you know, that kind of thing, which is normal, but you never had that. Never, never had that normal. See, it might've been his, his secretary. Yes. You know, calls them secretaries, admins, whatever you want to call them. Um, and his world was a secretary. Yeah. She's working it out. Yeah. And this was him actually calling and figuring it out. It was almost like he was finally intentionally trying to have a relationship with me. I know he, I'm going to be clear. My dad was a wonderful man and, um, really a pillar of society in so many ways and made such an, I'm not going to say who he

to have a relationship with me. I know he, I'm going to be clear. My dad was a wonderful man and, um, really a pillar of society in so many ways and made such an, I'm not going to say who he is, but made such an impression on. Tens of thousands of people. I'll just say that. Um, and he did love his children so much. And he did love me. He loved all his children. And I know he loved me. I it's, it's just, um, he just wasn't good at being an active father. If that makes sense. If that, I don't, you know what I mean? He wasn't good at being that active dad, but he did love his children. And, um, and I think if you go back to the root of what everything went on with him and my mom with the children and then him with my stepmom and having another child, you know, I think again, something broke there. It was just like probably always a little bit of heartbreak. He was carrying with him, you know, so no one's perfect. Um, the reality is I think everybody's dealing with something. Oh yeah. That's why we started this podcast. Everyone has something to share. And it doesn't mean that it's as heavy as what I'm talking about. I mean, there's people that have had amazing lives and they're just as interesting as what I just talked about. Honestly, everyone's story is interesting. You know, everyone's stories, it's not, it doesn't all have to be dysfunctional crazy like mine there. I love to hear about everybody's life. I'm fascinated by what everyone's story. Well, what you're describing as dysfunctional and chaos, honestly is it's not that dysfunctional and it's not that chaotic. It's your life. Yeah. A lot of people who have crazy dysfunctional, you know, you functioned, you made it through, right? I made it through. It was functional dysfunction or

It's your life. Yeah. A lot of people who have crazy dysfunctional, you know, you functioned, you made it through, right? I made it through. It was functional dysfunction or dysfunctional functionality, whatever it is. Right. Yeah. And I, and I should, and I have to give a lot of credit to my mom because even through all that, you know, her and I maintain a really good relationship and open communication and she, she tried the best she could in all situations. You know, she, she was dealt a shitty hand and then had to figure out how to raise me and keep her mental, her mental health together. So, you know, it's easy once you become a mother and a wife and you're, get older to look back and understand things, but when you're in it, it's so hard to, to really understand what's going on. So, you know, I think it's one of those things, you know, you know, going back to apologizing to your high school boyfriend for being crazy, end of the day, you're a good person, not like, you know, and there's, you're not out there hurting anybody. No, no. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. So it's just surviving, figuring shit out, right? It's all part of, it's all in our heads and our hearts or whatever, our souls, whatever, but it's, it's, we're all navigating. We're all getting through this. We are. We're all dealing with different inputs and just meandering our way through. Yeah, it's true. I just feel bad. I projected. I mean, and I'm not, I don't mean to say we had a lot of good times. We really did, but the bad times were like so bad. And it was because of me, you know, he didn't do anything wrong. He really was a great guy and he still is. Um, and even my college boyfriend, I should say was a really great guy too.

And it was because of me, you know, he didn't do anything wrong. He really was a great guy and he still is. Um, and even my college boyfriend, I should say was a really great guy too. Like we loved each other very much for that time in our life. And we had a lot of fun and he is a good person. You know, luckily the young men that entered my world during these times were good people. I'm very fortunate. Cause, um, it could have been really bad because I was incredibly vulnerable. So the young men that were in my life, the young, my high school boyfriend, my college boyfriend, you know, at least I had good people with me. Cause it really could have been so much worse. And then, you know, to have you as a husband, you know, you know, I, I, I feel you saved me, you saved me. And I remember always telling you, um, even if we get divorced or hate each other, I will never speak badly of you because you did save me. You did even. I mean, and I'm not saying that's why we got married. We got married because you were my other puzzle piece and we fit together perfectly and we are each other's person. And there was no hesitation in that at all. We were just each other's person, but he, you just never hesitated once. Saved you. It would not have lasted. So to your point, there's more of a puzzle piece coming together as opposed to some savior type of complex. You were my missing piece. You were my missing piece that, you know, um, but thankfully you had the fortitude to know how to handle me. I always say Brian got a degree in psychology just to be married to me. Yeah. So, you know, but, and we've kind of had to grow up together. Cause we got married so young. You know, and a lot goes on. We know from having two kids in their twenties, you grow up a lot in your

So, you know, but, and we've kind of had to grow up together. Cause we got married so young. You know, and a lot goes on. We know from having two kids in their twenties, you grow up a lot in your twenties, so the fact that you and I got married and started having children and had to grow up together, kids having kids, and there's so many pros to that, but it's also challenging. You know, so I would say I am the most, oh, no, I know what I wanted to ask you. Um, I don't mean to interrupt, but it's fine. In, you did not have religion as growing up. Right. And maybe touch on that in terms of when you did get confirmed Catholic. Um, what happened there? What explained that I know some of the background, but you know, so religion. It's interesting because I am actually very spiritual and very religious. You aren't and we work, we still work together. So for people in those situations, um, my mom, we went to church a couple times. I think it was called Beaverton four square. I think it's, it was just a general Christian church. Um, we only went a couple times. I remember going to Sunday school, but what I remember from that is I loved it. I always felt so good when we left and I always believed in God. I always believed in God. I didn't believe in God. I was raised to believe in God by your mom or my dad. Okay. And my dad, I was, I was baptized Armenian apostolic. My family, my Armenian family goes to church. Okay. My dad, I never went to church when I was there visiting. Yeah. Um, well, I've been to Armenian churches for weddings, but not for a service, but my Armenian family is religious. My dad believed in God. My mom raised me to believe in God. So I always had that. It's not like anyone was atheist or agnostic or anything.

but my Armenian family is religious. My dad believed in God. My mom raised me to believe in God. So I always had that. It's not like anyone was atheist or agnostic or anything. Um, but I never really had a religion except when I was baptized. And then when you and I got married in Vegas, they shut down the pool area of the golden nugget hotel in Vegas for our wedding. So it was completely non-denominational. And, um, so there was no religion there. And even when we first had Nathan baptized, it was by a non-denominational woman in my mom's apartment. Remember that? I forgot about that. Yeah. Your parents were there. I'm sure they were like, what the hell? Yeah. Um, so I didn't have like consistent religion, right? But I wanted him baptized. Talk about weird. Yeah. It was so weird. Um, then we moved to New Jersey and we put them in Catholic school and I chose that, um, well, Nathan was in preschool and then I wanted Catholic school. Cause I liked the smaller classrooms and the smaller environment than public school. And I wanted uniforms. And you wanted uniforms. You went, you grew up in the town that we moved to. You went to public school there, but you wanted uniforms. And I wanted a small classroom and a small community. So we put him in Catholic school and you're Catholic. You were raised Catholic, but you weren't confirmed. You were baptized. You took communion, but you were now confirmed. Yeah. Um, and you don't go to church. And so between the two of us, if your child is in Catholic school, you need at least one parent that goes to church and participates in those things. It's just not going to work. So it was on me to be that parent. So I spent a year going to classes every Sunday, um, for a year. And then I was baptized Catholic and

participates in those things. It's just not going to work. So it was on me to be that parent. So I spent a year going to classes every Sunday, um, for a year. And then I was baptized Catholic and received my confirmation on Easter service all at once. It was a long service. It was like an hour and a half or something. Two hours. Sure. Yeah. Um, so then I became Catholic and it was for, it started out for the kids because they were in Catholic school and at least one of their parents should be an active Catholic that, because that needed to happen. Mandatory or. Yeah. Somebody needed to be Catholic and somebody needed to be going to church and they were going through all their sacraments. And if one of us wasn't didn't have all of them, it wasn't going to fly. Um, so. Well, I think you could just pay more, right? No, no, you had to show, no, you had to show like a parent had to be Catholic. Yeah. Okay. So, um, at that time they've changed a lot of things since, since the pandemic things have changed, but, um, through Catholicism and through our children attending Catholic school, all of them going to Catholic school until high Um, I, my, uh, relationship with God has strengthened significantly and my faith has become such an integral part of my life and of my journey. And, um, I, you know, my, Kaya and I try to go to church every Sunday and I pray every day and you pray every day. Yeah. I pray for you. That's a good thing. Keep going. Well, what's funny is that even though you don't go to church, um, you act more like a Catholic man than some Catholic men do, you know, you've, you've stayed, we've been married for over almost over 30 years and you've never cheated. I think that's the rub for me though. You've never cheated on me. No.

men do, you know, you've, you've stayed, we've been married for over almost over 30 years and you've never cheated. I think that's the rub for me though. You've never cheated on me. No. Um, you're a family man. You never stopped at the bars. You don't spend every Saturday golfing. Um, you are completely and utterly devoted to your family. And so, you know, and, and you've paid Catholic school tuition for, oh my gosh, I even know how many years, um, at least 20 years and you, and we tied every Sunday money comes out of your, your, our bank account every Sunday for the church. So when does that finally get the stop? I don't know. But so monetarily, you also have been very Catholic. So, you know, even though you don't go to church with us, um, you, your actions are, they are very Catholic. You've been a good Catholic husband and father by default, whether you want to be or not. So that's where that came from. And, um, and it's helped me a lot, get through a lot. I will say that helped me get through a lot too. Talking to God, talking to God. I just talked to God. That's how it is. You just talked to God. I, um, there's something, if one of the kids is going through something, I, I talked to God about it and ask him to help them. And, um, yeah, that helps a lot. It helps with my anxiety. A lot of times at night, a lot, I don't know, a lot of, I'm sure people can relate to this when you go to lay your head on the pillow, sometimes all your anxieties hit you, your brain. And if I can't sleep, I'll just say, God, just please take my anxieties from me and it's, and it works. All of a sudden I go to sleep. I swear it works. I give them over to God and he takes them and then I can sleep. Yeah. So that has been huge in my life.

from me and it's, and it works. All of a sudden I go to sleep. I swear it works. I give them over to God and he takes them and then I can sleep. Yeah. So that has been huge in my life. There's one other thing I forgot to touch on and I just want to share because it might, um, help some women out there. But, um, with my college boyfriend, when I was 22, I popped up pregnant accidentally. It was a complete accident. I had been on birth control since I was 16. For some reason, I went off of it briefly and I can't tell you why. Cause I don't remember. And I popped up pregnant. I, um, I did get an abortion. I got an abortion. I think I was only four weeks along, maybe five. I hadn't even hit six weeks yet. And, um, the reason I'm sharing this is because I want other women out there that it's okay if you've had to make that decision in your life, but also it's not a decision made lightly and it's something that you carry with you for the rest of your life. And I personally feel in today's society, um, for younger women, they've been kind of sold this, Oh, just get an abortion. It's no big deal or have multiple abortions. What's the big deal? And that's just, I feel that's so unfair to do to young women because it is emotionally damaging. It's mentally damaging. And, um, it's something you never escape for whatever reason. Um, I don't regret my decision, but it's something I carry with me. And so I just think that young women need to understand that yes, it's important to have that freedom and that choice, but it should not be taken lightly. And it should be, I believe abortion should be safe and rare, but if you've had one and you still carry that with you, that's very normal. It's, it's a very normal reaction.

And it should be, I believe abortion should be safe and rare, but if you've had one and you still carry that with you, that's very normal. It's, it's a very normal reaction. And if you're going to have one, just be prepared that it's not something you just like go on with the rest of your life. Like it didn't happen. It's, it's definitely something that's serious and, and you need to think about it that way. So I just, I wanted to share that because I mean, you know, it's something that I've, I've struggled with. And, um, I just think society is just so flippant, flippant about it now. And so I think it deserves to be taken a little more seriously, you know, and, and women, young women should know that it's completely fine to, to have one. It really is for whatever personal reason, but, um, it's, it's not like you're going to be totally fine mentally afterwards. You just aren't. And so you need to be prepared for that. You know, it's funny. We, when we drove around the country, we made that bumper sticker and we were selling in little shops, right? Yeah. Life is ideal choice is real. That was related to abortion. Like obviously. Long ways though. Yeah. Choosing life is ideal. That would be the ideal situation. If everybody could have the baby that if they popped up pregnant, but choice is the reality that you have to go, you know, women deserve that choice. And I am a Catholic and I know that that goes against, um, the teachings, but I'm very pro woman and I think you can be both. And so you became Catholic later on. Yes. Yes. But I don't know if it would have mattered or not. Well, no, because I'm still pro choice. Yeah. But I don't like the idea of it. This is my own personal opinion. I don't think it should be treated as birth control.

would have mattered or not. Well, no, because I'm still pro choice. Yeah. But I don't like the idea of it. This is my own personal opinion. I don't think it should be treated as birth control. And I also don't think it should be taken lightly. Yeah. And, um, I think at the end of the day, it's, it is what it is. And if it happens, it happens. Yeah. Right. And you will be okay, but I just think that I think sometimes, uh, young women are kind of led to this feeling of it's like taking an Advil or it's like changing your tampon. It is certainly not. You know, it's, it's an interesting concept around a larger concept of how much the world has shifted, even just in our 30 years of marriage. And that's one big area is it used to be, Oh God, I, you know, an abortion was semi rare and it was to your point, it was, um, it was hard. Yeah. Now that's this pendulum is so to your point, flipping. It was a trip. It wasn't something that you shouted from the rooftops. And now there's literally now it's like they're proud. People are proud to shout it from the rooftops. It's not something to be proud of. That's where I'm coming from. It's not something you need to be ashamed of, but it is not something you should be proud of. And that's why I'm saying it belongs somewhere else. It's not pride and it's not shame that you got to put it somewhere else. Because, um, that's what I'm talking about. Shout your abortion from the rooftops. That is that's wrong. And it's wrong to lead young women to think that that's normal behavior. Because then when they're suffering mentally from what happened, they, what happened, um, then, then they, they might feel like, Oh, well, I'm not supposed to feel this way because it's no big deal.

Because then when they're suffering mentally from what happened, they, what happened, um, then, then they, they might feel like, Oh, well, I'm not supposed to feel this way because it's no big deal. Everyone else is doing it. And it's like, it does affect cause yeah, cause I'm not saying that actually it's all, it's all stays with you. It's nothing as a woman that ever leaves you until the day you die. And, um, so that's what I would like to see. It's just a little more reverence treated again towards this situation. And that's why I'm sharing this is because this is what I've gone through. And, um, I just, I just, for any young women out there to know you completely have the right to do that, but just really take it seriously. It's not, it's not like it's, it's, it can be a life changing thing. Even having a baby's life changing, but so is having an abortion. So that was, that was the one thing that I forgot to touch on. I have one other one that you haven't touched on. Um, and it's, it was in the life changing arena. You, well, we, you and I both have had friends die while we were still kids and teenagers. Um, I don't know your friend's name. I don't necessarily think you share it, but you had a friend who flipped over in a car or half roading or something. It was like a month after, um, after graduation from high school and him and some other friends were, um, in a car and the car flipped and he died. Him and another boy died too. Too died. Wow. And, um, he had shocking one. And I think, I think when something like that happens. Up until the point that point, you kind of feel, um, invincible because you're young and you never face your mortality. I mean, unless those moments were like me where I was thinking about killing

Up until the point that point, you kind of feel, um, invincible because you're young and you never face your mortality. I mean, unless those moments were like me where I was thinking about killing myself, but even then you actually, it's different. It's hard to explain, but, um, when a peer dies, you realize you're not invincible and you can die. It's that's, that's definitely life altering. Do you still think about that? Does that come into your psyche time? Like my Roman, like a Roman empire. There was also another boy I knew in high school, remember on Tik TOK when they're saying men think about the Roman empire, at least once a day. Yeah. Um, and then there was another friend who jumped at head first into the Wilson river hit his head. Not intentionally. Well, no, he dove intentionally, but he didn't mean to hit his head. He went home, went to sleep and never woke up again. That's why I always tell the kids, you got to make sure you know how deep everything is before and never jump head first. Yeah. So, but I think, um, those were for me in high school, the only two that I can remember, I don't think I'm missing anyone. And then in college, I don't think we lost anybody in college afterwards. We know of some people, but, um, so yeah, that thankfully as weird as it sounds with the way my childhood went, that wasn't as prominent. You experienced more of that than me. Yeah. You had suicides and murder and all that. Yeah. All that. So, um, that wasn't as prominent for me. Yeah. So now where I'm at is I've been, I've been good. I've been, I've been doing really well and I'm, you know, things have been really good for a long time for me. I feel completely healed. I feel whole. I feel at peace. I feel content.

I've been, I've been doing really well and I'm, you know, things have been really good for a long time for me. I feel completely healed. I feel whole. I feel at peace. I feel content. Um, but I've unpacked my trauma. Yeah. I have literally impact everything that I've gone through. I've unpacked it. I faced it and I processed it and I found closure. What do you, what do you think are some of those, the catalysts that allowed you to unpack it? Was it, you know, probably the me, of course, right. But then family, kids, you're finding God in the food, stopping drinking, you know, stopping the coping. Are those all the puzzle or. Yeah. Because like I stopped having an eating disorder, I guess after college, even though once you have an eating disorder, you always are kind of aware of how you eat, but I never went back to that. Yeah. So as I let go of the unhealthy coping mechanisms and also becoming a mother. And also when you become a mother, you have to get your shit together. Like nothing helps you focus away from yourself more than becoming a parent. Yeah. And then, you know, then there's only so much time for your shit. Yeah. So that helped a lot. Um, I didn't have as much time to devote to my issues. Yeah. Uh, so it's been, you wouldn't advise someone to go having kids to solve your issues, careful there. Cause people do that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It didn't solve it. Yeah. It didn't solve it. I see. That's why it's taken me so long too, is that you get busy raising children and you put yourself on the back burner. Yeah. Um, but letting go of the coping mechanisms, making a conscious decision to, we made a shift when we turned 50 to live a healthier life. And cause we want to be around for our kids. Like we're finally

Um, but letting go of the coping mechanisms, making a conscious decision to, we made a shift when we turned 50 to live a healthier life. And cause we want to be around for our kids. Like we're finally growing up or something. I think that's Gen X though. I swear, I think Gen X, I think when we're 50, it's more like we're 30. Like we're finally adults or something. It took us a long time to become, but we were 30 when we were 10 too. Like, I think we're just perpetually 30. And then all of a sudden our maturity is caught up with it. I don't know. Cause we've always had to be so self-reliant. It's almost like we finally, I finally gave myself grace. I finally wasn't so hard on myself. And I finally took the time to honor that child and say, I'm going to have a voice for you because you didn't have one for all those years. So I'm now going to go back and look at all those experiences because you deserve that. You know, so that helps. So, you know, we've got a 20 something year old daughter and son and a 14. And for the older two, especially not the 14, not at all, but they'd only want to talk to us, the, no, but they'd need to do his friends or whatever. But our older two's friends will seek advice, especially the girls from you. Right. Or you'll give unsolicited advice. Yes. Do you have any say nuggets for someone Kai is age, you know, the girls, if you look, we had the podcast with the girls, you know, it's a good conversation. In general. Yeah. Yeah. In general. Um, from everything I've learned in life, uh, number one, do not chase men. I a hundred percent believe that if he wanted, if he wanted to, he would. I'm a big believer in that. I don't think you should chase men. I think if a man is interested in you, you will know.

I a hundred percent believe that if he wanted, if he wanted to, he would. I'm a big believer in that. I don't think you should chase men. I think if a man is interested in you, you will know. And if it's right, there should be no confusion. If you're feeling confused, it's not right. And I think that you should live your life and a man should add to it. To already what's going on, um, to, to your already good life, a man should add to it. You should not need him to fulfill anything for you except adding to an already good life. Um, you should do your thing. Yeah. So, and also I think that be careful who you give your energy to sexually. Um, when you are intimate with someone, you're accepting their energy and you're giving your energy and that lasts inside of your soul. And so really, um, not everyone should have access to you. They should earn it. And not everyone deserves access to you. Even family, it should be earned and especially men or, you know, if you're, um, if you're gay, another woman, uh, whoever you're giving access to of your body, take that seriously. Cause you're accepting their energy. Make sure it's someone you want to accept their energy and not everyone deserves access to you. Like respect yourself enough and honor yourself enough to know that, um, who you deserve that time and energy to make sure they deserve that time and energy. So I think the, you answered that safe from a woman to woman. Yeah. It's probably this very similar answer to men, you know, right? It's, it feels like it can go. It's a two way. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any additional advice for say a young man, your, you know, your son or his friends, my son or his friends? Well, of course that's going to be how I know how I've raised my sons.

Yeah. Do you have any additional advice for say a young man, your, you know, your son or his friends, my son or his friends? Well, of course that's going to be how I know how I've raised my sons. Is that, um, they should make enough money that if their wife wants to stay home and raise their kids, they can provide that, but if their wife wants to work, they should support her in that. So I'm a big believer in that that you should try to make as much money as possible so that your wife has that choice. Um, your wife or you as a couple? Well, you as a couple. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, you as a couple clarifying for you. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. But I mean, I think knowing my older son, I think he, you know, he also would have those same values. So, but I think, um, I don't want them to be deadbeats where they, you know, yeah. I think they should be the, the, the man. I'm very much a believer in that. You should want to be the man and be able to provide for your family. But if your wife wants to work, then you should a hundred percent support her that that as well. And, um, and, and that men deserve respect to just, I do believe that, um, when you take a girl out, you should pay. I do believe that. And then I believe once you're dating, then it's shared finances. Like she might get coffee this time and he gets that. But when you're courting a girl, I believe in courting. I think you should open the door for her. I think you should walk on the outside as part of the sidewalk. Silvery should be alive. I'm a big believer in that. And, um, if you're going to break up with a girl, I think it should be face to face. You know, it's weird though is I don't feel like this was a thing when we were younger, but maybe it was, but now you

a girl, I think it should be face to face. You know, it's weird though is I don't feel like this was a thing when we were younger, but maybe it was, but now you hear all these stories of girls just. Going getting with guys just so they'll keep buying them dinner type of thing. I don't feel like that was a whole trend when we were younger, right? There wasn't the social media. I don't know. Teaching girls at a game at as much. I don't know. No, I'm sure social media has a whole. Yeah. I mean, that's that, that's also the thing is be wary. Obviously if you're interested in a girl, but make sure that her intentions, you know, you're feeling the same good intentions from her and she's not just using you for free meals, but I think guys, but don't assume she is right off the bat. I keep seeing stuff on social media about. First of all, men pain, uh, wanting to split the check the first date and they asked the girl out. Yeah. That's crazy to me. It's insane. Yeah. Um, or, you know, feeling like making sure they're not going to be used, but then flip side, I do see young men that are like, no, I, I, I will take her out. I will pay. And I want my wife, if she wants to be home, I should be able to provide dating of this day and age. No, I think social media. Um, I can't even imagine honestly. So, and I know we're going to have our older son on and we're going to talk about some of that, but no, I think that a man, I think young men should be chivalrous, um, but also, um, wary and, and conscious of not getting used. And that's a, that's a tricky one, you know, and, um, and like I said, you know, uh, want to support your wife, but as far as, as any, I can't think like for boy, like that's how I raised my boys. I'm raising my voice.

know, and, um, and like I said, you know, uh, want to support your wife, but as far as, as any, I can't think like for boy, like that's how I raised my boys. I'm raising my voice. So if you're asking advice, however, I'm raising my boys, it would be my advice, you know, but more, and then for the girls. Yeah. That's, yeah. That's pretty much, I wish I would have had. I wish, I think if I had my dad in my life, I would have respected myself more and my energy and my space. Um, I knew nothing of boundaries. I don't think our generation did or self care, but I would have at least had someone in my corner, a man. I would add a man in my corner. So, um, I think that's so important. We've talked about that, but that's an interesting question. And what sense? Just what advice I would give to young people out there, you know? Oh, oh, wait, I thought of one. We've reached the point where we're older now. We are older. You know, I thought about something else too, though. Don't be scared to get married and have children. I think that so many, I think there's a lot of overthinking going on. If you think you've met your person, do it. And it's okay. If you are financially struggling for awhile, that's, that's how we grew up. That's what you do in the start and you work together and you figure it out, um, but there's a lot to be said for when you have children, it actually makes you be better version of yourself. You rise to the occasion. I don't totally disagree with you, but my, the only thing I would say is don't rush in the marriage, make sure you're friends with the person. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be no, no, no ultimatums. We've talked about that. No, no, no, no, no. Don't do the ultimatum game.

rush in the marriage, make sure you're friends with the person. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be no, no, no ultimatums. We've talked about that. No, no, no, no, no. Don't do the ultimatum game. You don't have to rush in, but to your point, you don't have to go on the, the 10 year courtship either. 100%. So that's what I mean. I mean, if you've met your person and all that, I don't mean hurry up and go out and get, but if you think this is your person, go for it, take a chance, take a chance because you know, it's time, it's time relationships are supposed to evolve and keep growing even ours at 30 years, it's always evolving and growing. You finally came around. You don't want to become stagnant. So, um, yeah, that I guess that's my story. And now here I am doing a podcast as a old person. I'm the old person. It's funny. We, we used to be the young parents. Now we're the older now or the older parents. Yeah. So, but I'm happy to say I actually can say I'm proud of myself. And that's really hard for me to say, cause I've been the hardest on myself my whole life. Um, I'm proud for what I, I got through and I'm proud of the, the family we've created and, um, and also that I've been able to devote time to myself truly for the first time in my life over these last few years and challenged myself and, um, honored myself. You know, so that's taking the time for me, which is something that does not come naturally. All right. Last question. Yeah. Just made me think of it. Um, do you have anything you want to accomplish in these? I don't think we're in the golden years yet. No, not yet. Like, I don't think you, you, you want to run a marathon. I don't think your body would let you, but is there something like that where,

I don't think we're in the golden years yet. No, not yet. Like, I don't think you, you, you want to run a marathon. I don't think your body would let you, but is there something like that where, you know, you've written one book, would you like to write another book or give any, you know, big milestone types of things that are one type of thing or whatever. Um, I would love for, I would love to have more guests. Like I want to continue to grow this podcast and have more and more guests on because I am so fascinated by people. I'm way more interested in people than celebrities. I'm way more interested in authenticity than illusion and persona. So I would just like to get to know as many people as I can and hear their stories. That's, that's something I'd like to accomplish. Um, I've, I've thought about writing another book. Yeah. And then physically, I really, really want to, um, finally really focus on weight training in 2025 because I go back and forth with it. And I, I know as a woman and not to get muscles like me. Yeah. And it was a woman in menopause and we're going to do a menopause episode, but, um, that that's so important for my health. Yeah. And so I really want to focus on that, but I have to be honest, my greatest is the kids and our 30 year marriage. Yeah. Yeah. That's my legacy. No matter what happens in the, for the rest of my life, my legacy is our marriage and our three kids. And I will, there will never be anything in my life I'm more proud of than that. So in my mind, I'm like, you know, everything else is like icing on the cake. All right. Last question. Since you brought up the, I was thinking longer term, our daughter wants to run a marathon. Yeah. You know, those types of things, um, for

like icing on the cake. All right. Last question. Since you brought up the, I was thinking longer term, our daughter wants to run a marathon. Yeah. You know, those types of things, um, for 2025, you have any resolutions coming up? This will be released before the year or right around. Um, really, really, um, growing the podcast. Okay. 2025 is really focusing on the podcast, growing the podcast, mainly because I want to talk to as many people as possible and reach as many people as possible. So I'd say 2025 will be, um, a big focus on the podcast. So that, and, um, and weight training. And what you got me a weighted vest for Christmas. I'm excited to use that. And I think the interesting thing about this podcast is we're not necessarily seeking commercial success. Right. It's the kind of the furthest thing from our minds in that sense. It's that connection to people's different stories. And, and, and, and, cause I think that it will also reach others and it could affect their lives positively. Yeah. And maybe help people feel, um, seen and understood and not alone. Yeah. So that's it. But I also am so interested in hearing people's stories. Yeah. So that's the main thing. And I just have to say for anyone watching, I am wearing a miss peaches. Hoodie. And I don't know if anyone knows who miss peaches is, but she is Dave Portnoy's dog. I didn't know a lot about Dave Portnoy before miss peaches. I knew he would, I know he, I knew he owned barstool sports and I knew, knew he did the, um, pizza reviews because he's done a couple in the town we live in. And he helps small businesses by doing these reviews. And so I've always admired that about him and I, and he's a Gen Xer. And I really, I love how he is so cut and

And he helps small businesses by doing these reviews. And so I've always admired that about him and I, and he's a Gen Xer. And I really, I love how he is so cut and dry and just says it how it is. I love that. It's a Boston guy. Yeah. Um, but then he adopted miss peaches and she is the most precious angel on earth. She's a pit bull and she's joy and sweetness. Another dog now too. And then after miss peaches, well, he adopted Pete, the beagle who has worked. He seems to be the most perfect brother for her. They play all day. And for a beagle, he beagles typically are runners. He doesn't seem to be a runner. Miss peaches is the one who has tried to escape and in all his houses, he's had to reinforce all his fencing. So she doesn't get it go anywhere, but, um, he's big into animal rescue, which you and I are kind of a shtick in a sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you and I are big. All of our dogs are rescues through our lives and we've had more. We've, we've had seven dogs total and we've always rescue is our favorite breed. And he, all the money from everything miss peaches, if you go to barstool sports, all, anything you buy from miss peaches or Pete, the beagle, every dollar goes towards, um, rescues around the country. He's raised over a million dollars just from people buying hoodies. And so, um, I love miss peaches. You should check around on social media, but I'm just putting the plug out there because it helps animals, uh, animal rescues. So does he donate to, does he like pick a place of random? Yeah. Yeah. Like there was one by us up in West Palm. He gave $25,000 to the big dog rescue. No, a different one. Okay. He gave $25,000 to them, but she's gotten the key to the city of Miami. Like she is an angel. She's she's perfect.

He gave $25,000 to the big dog rescue. No, a different one. Okay. He gave $25,000 to them, but she's gotten the key to the city of Miami. Like she is an angel. She's she's perfect. She's amazing. And, um, I think I encourage everyone to go check out miss peaches on social media, and then if you want the hoodies are so cute. The thing about Dave or Fortnoy, it would be, I'm sure he doesn't have this huge overhead if you give to United Way, 20% of your donations go into people that it's intended for, right? If you buy the sweatshirt, it probably covers the cost and you get a sweatshirt out of it, but then I'm sure his overhead is not nearly as bureaucratic or administrative. So yeah, probably your, your dollar goes further and reaching a, yeah. Wherever it's intended for sure. No, it says every dollar. So I just, I had to say that just because it's for such a good cause. So, and I love my miss peaches hoodie. I got it for Christmas. She's a, she's a precious little baby. All right. You got anything else? Are we done? No, so that was it. So that's my life story. I have to, animal rescue also is such a big part of my life. So I had to also bring that into this episode, but thank you for listening to my story and, um, I hope it, uh, I hope it was entertaining and maybe it also, people could relate to some of the stuff I talked about. So thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it. And that's our first Gen X speaks episode and we will definitely be having more. And thank you. The next time we talk to our listeners will be 2025. So we will see you next year. Take care. Bye.